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#31
09-29-2011, 08:40 PM
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However you might want to entertain the idea that you are repeating yourself because some questions were not being answered. I wouldn't be too worried though. There are gay people in Canada too, including the military. Not only that but when I was in the army, we didn't have laws that violated human rights which kept them from serving... and interesting enough, the gays didn't make a mess of things. Last edited by Fusilier; 09-29-2011 at 08:46 PM. 
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#32
09-29-2011, 08:50 PM
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__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#33
09-29-2011, 08:55 PM
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__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#34
09-30-2011, 04:47 AM
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Coming from a British perspective, I don't understand all the fuss. In the British military gay and lesbian soldiers are accorded the same rights as everyone else, hell they can get married and qualify for a family quarter.
This is a relatively recent thing but the British attitude, post-80's, has been really positive in this regard. Who you screw has nothing to do with how you fight. In the post-2tk enviroment it'l be even less of a consideration as basic survival tends to be mor eimportant than cultural/religous bigotry.
__________________
Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven.
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#35
09-30-2011, 05:04 AM
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That's what my friends and family who are openly gay are worried will happen beause of what's going on with the so-called "gay marriage" debate with activists pulling some horrible things off to just get attention. And as I have stated time and time again... I don't care who you sleep with, I just don't want you forcing it down mine or anyone else's throat. I had someone do that to me LITERALLY, not figureative. I was rapped. and they got away with it because of the political games being played at the time. I am joining my adopted family was we just hope and pray that the recruiters and indoctrination & training centres will be able to weed out the ones who are Identitiy Political Activist who do horrirlbe things to get special 'gay rights'
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#36
09-30-2011, 05:28 AM
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__________________
Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven.
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#37
09-30-2011, 05:33 AM
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__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#38
09-30-2011, 09:23 AM
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One third of female vets with PTSD that served in Iraq or Afgan have suffered military sexual trauma. Sex, both consensual and rape is happening in the military on a regular basis. Same-sex rape is not about sexual gratification or homosexuality, but it is about violent control and domination, and the vast majority of men that sexually assault other men identify themselves as heterosexual. Many rapists will attack either males or females, while in their consensual sex lives, they will only have sex with females. Some target males more than females as it gives them even a greater sense of power and control. Based on the stats, I could argue that MST is endemic to the military. I googled "gays storm church" and found one single incident in Lansing, MI. here in the U.S. One incident that had zero to do with the military. Again, I am just trying to understand your point. You believe that there is a danger that the U.S. military is going to be infiltrated by gay activists bent on breaking rules to gain rights? Am I right?
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#39
09-30-2011, 02:58 PM
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And sorry, I couldn't figure out how to grab the quote that was the reason for Nate's answer.
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#40
09-30-2011, 03:14 PM
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But for a long time, gays in the military have voluntarily served the country while knowing if their sexual orientation ever leaked out, they could suffer anything from a beating to a court-martial, and it wouldn't matter how well they served their country. They joined anyway, because they wanted to serve their country that badly. The treatment of gays in the military to date is a point of dishonor to the entire military right up to the President. If you want to serve your country so badly you're willing to deal with such treatment, you're not a liar and you are not a pervert -- you are noble, honorable and patriotic, perhaps more than the typical soldier.
__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#41
09-30-2011, 03:35 PM
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It's insane that in the 21st century to have a military that bars people based on sex, sexual orientation or religion. it's just bloody daft.
__________________
Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven.
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#42
09-30-2011, 06:30 PM
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I'm not talking about the type of openly gay person who just wants to serve a country that they love. I'm talking about the kind who puts identity politics above the needs and welfare of others and their country. Look up "Folsom Street Fair" and "Up your Alley" for some of the kind of things that the type of people that I'm talking about have just done in San Fran. There are other cities in the US and Europe where this kind of behaviour has been happening over the past 10+ years during so-called 'gay pride' parades. Men having sex with other men, or doing the 'leather' S&M sex acts IN PUBLIC infront of children is something that is just plan wrong. And you didn't look hard enough if you only found out about Lansign church being attacked... because this has happened more than once here in the US AND in churches over seas. Below is JUST ONE story that had happened in 1993, i can't find the story again that had been written in 2010 that covered 20 years of really obnoxious behavour that didn't help the gay rights debate, but set them back because it caused people who were already fearful of something they didn't understand. And if you take the time to look for them, you can find out about the many other cases of homosexual activists who have been going into churches and interrupting the services. One of the groups actuallly had men that were dressed in Nun habits and kabuki stype makeup storming in and causing all kinds of problems in a catholic church. This one actually had video that showed the priest tried to keep the peace and he offered them a chance to take communion and blessings from the father, and then sit down and listen to the surmen. But that wasn't what the activists wanted. They just wanted to keep yelling and making all kinds of problems to disrupt the services. It's THAT kind of thing that i'm talking about. That all this is being done for political reasons. There was a better way of doing this, and it wasn't taken. News Release: Official Statement by Dr. David C. Innes The following events took place on Sunday evening, September 19,1993, revolving around the regularly schedule 6:00 PM Sunday Evening Worship Service of the Hamilton Square Baptist Church, 1212 Geary St., San Francisco, California. Reverend Lou Sheldon, of the Traditional Values Coalition, was invited by the church to be the guest speaker. Only the church's membership and regular attenders were notified of the service, through the church's own Sunday bulletin. No public notice or invitation was made in addition to this. However, in the September 16,1993 edition of the Bay Area Reporter, the meeting was announced in a front page article using intemperate, inflammatory language. A three-by-five ad on page five of the September 15,1993 edition of the San Francisco Sentinel announced a protest of the Sunday night service. The church has no knowledge of how, or from whom they obtained the information. The church received telephone calls during the week prior to the meeting, demanding that our guest speaker should not come. Two people came to the church during that week asking to see the pastor and, speaking to the caretaker, notified him that we could not have Rev. Sheldon as a guest in our church, and that they intended to stop him. The church's pastor, Dr. David C. Innes, made at least four calls to the Northern (Police) Station prior to the meeting, on Saturday and Sunday afternoon regarding the demonstration, expressing his concern for potential problems. He called the Northern Station immediately before the service, and requested more backup police because he felt the situation was not under control. He was informed that no backup would be sent unless requested by police that were present and further, that they had not requested it. Dr. Innes was told, "You must understand. This is San Francisco." Homosexual and lesbian demonstrators began gathering around the church property as early as 5:00 PM. The police were immediately notified by telephone of their presence. As people entered the building, demonstrators handed flyers purporting to be published by the church. These were also placed upon automobile windshields in the immediate area. By 6:00 PM a riot was under way. The rioters assumed complete control of the exterior property and grounds of the church. In spite of several requests to have them removed the officer in charge insisted that everything was under control and that police procedures and regulations would not allow him to do so. At about the time of the beginning of the service, an usher, stationed himself in the courtyard to assist members in gaining entry to the building. The usher witnessed the destruction of church property and notified an officer who turned away and ignored him. The rioters recognized him as a church member, surrounded him and completely denied him any freedom of movement. Pastor Charles and Donna McIlhenny were refused entry by the rioters, and told they could not enter the building. The doors were completely blocked by the rioters. Pastor McIlhenny held on to Donna as they began to make their way through the mob who were shouting and screaming in their ears, "You will not enter this church." The rioters assaulted them, pushing and shoving them, seeking to keep them from the front door. One of them grabbed Donna's body, lifting her off the ground, and attempted to pull her back away from the entry. She stretched her arms out for help from a near by police officer who offered no assistance. Her son, seeing she was in trouble, pleaded with the officers to assist her. The officers appeared so overwhelmed by the rioters that they were unable to take control of the situation. Both of her hands were scratched (the skin was broken). Finally, the church's caretaker grabbed her outstretched arms and pulled her through to the door, out of the hands of the rioters. As they made their way past the three police officers at the door, they were pelted by rocks, which also struck the window panes of the entry doors. Several members from Pastor McIlhenny's church also were accosted and had to flee to a side entrance. There they also found the entry blocked and had to remain outside until the riot police arrived and let them in the building. Pastor McIlhenny's son, Ryan and his friend were not able to enter the building. The rioter removed the Christian flag from the flag pole, and attached the gay flag under the U.S. flag. The church's caretaker removed both flags, but a rioter grabbed the gay flag and it was again run up the flag pole and the rope knotted out of reach. When the caretaker, again attempted to remove the gay flag, he was assaulted and hit with eggs. Being pushed back he was unable to reach the flag pole, and returned to the entry of the church. Much of the newly planted landscaping around the flag pole was damaged. One cement bench was pushed over into the fountain by rioters. When the police were notified of this they refused to respond. A second bench was dismantled and the seat thrown over into a light well and destroyed by rioters. The rioters guilty of this vandalism described this wanton destruction of church property as "interior decorating." Paper messages were stuck to the handrails, walls and windows of the building. A single parent, who is a church member, and her six year old daughter were told they could not enter the building. A rioter grabbed her daughter's arm as she was clinging to her mother, and began interrogating her. The mother and daughter finally entered the building by passing through the rioters. The child was crying and terrified. The mother had also brought an elderly friend who was refused entry by the rioters. Twenty minutes passed before she was able to get her friend into the service. Along with these, many others of the elderly and children were terrorized. To our knowledge, riot police were never called in by the officers present. They came only because the guest speaker left the worship service and called 911. The rioters were then removed from the courtyard area of the church property by the riot police. They proceeded to the emergency exit doors on the west side of the auditorium where they pounded and kicked the doors seeking to break them down. This disturbed the service in process that the service had to be temporarily discontinued. The officers present were immediately notified. The pounding was so loud, that an elderly blind woman was terrified, thinking that the sound was gunshots. She began crying, feeling helpless and threatened, and was comforted by nearby members. Due to the forceful nature of the rioters' attempts to break down the doors, one of the exit doors was damaged in a major way, the door jam being broken. Rioters continued their demonstration, standing on church property with their megaphone. The rioters then laid down in the intersection of Geary and Franklin, blocking the traffic. The rioters passed out the fraudulent flyers to waiting vehicles and pounded on the vehicles of those attempting to cross the intersection. The police took no action to remove them for approximately ten minutes. A woman demonstrator exposed her breasts to church members present in the area. One woman, a regular attender at our services, and her husband were hindered from entering the building by the rioters who had been moved to the sidewalk. When she entered the building she was so terrified that one of our other ladies had to help her calm down. Another member stood across the street and did not enter because of fear of physical violence. As the service was concluded, the people were split into three groups. All of the children were clinging to the parents, frightened to leave the building. Two groups exited out emergency exits. One group waited, and then exited out the main entrance. The people were shouted at and threatened by the rioters as they made their way to their cars, being called Christian bigots, hypocrites, fascists, homophobes, and other expletives, some obscene. An eight year old retarded girl, upon exiting through the front entrance was so traumatized upon being verbally accosted, that she fell down the steps. The guest speaker was escorted by the police to the church van, as debris pelted him from the rioters. Following his departure the rioters began to depart and the riot police were dismissed. The rioters shouted at the police, "You won't be here all night, but the church (building) will be." Only two or three police officers remained to secure the building Dr. Innes, Rev. Eugene Lumpkin, and the church's associate Pastor with his wife and children remained inside. When this became known to the rioters, they returned in force to the church and began pounding on the front doors. The situation was once again out of control and Dr. Innes called 911 for reinforcements. When the rioters saw the children standing in the lobby, they shouted "We want your children. Give us your children." The police asked us to move away from the entry. Dr. Innes, his associate and family left through another exit. A nine year old boy, was crying in hysterics, "They are after me. It's me they want." He did not calm down until the family was several miles from the building. A rioter broke one of the large address numbers off the face of the building and attempted to remove others unsuccessfully. A citizen's arrest was made on this individual. The person making the citizen's arrest was verbally threatened by other rioters. Officers told us they were informed by the rioters that our meeting was an open, public meeting, and they did not intend to prohibit the entry of the rioters onto our property. The pastor, Dr. Innes, informed the officers that this was a regularly scheduled church worship service and was not, as such, an open, public meeting, in the secular sense. He further informed the officers that no public notice had been made by the church inviting the public. The police later insisted that they were bound by the rioters' claim that this was an open, public meeting and not a worship service.. We were informed by the police, that due to the city's police regulations and policies, the police were not allowed to enforce the law regarding the disturbance of church worship services and the presence of rioters on church property. Police estimates the number of rioters were approximately 75, although actual counts indicated a number closer to 100. In spite of all this malicious disruption, not a single arrest was made by police outside of one citizen's arrest. The church's property was not secured, and the fundamental rights of the worshippers were not protected because, we were told, "The Board of Supervisors would never support the measures necessary to do so." Upon leaving for the final time, several of the rioters said, "We will be back." Numerous obscene and threatening telephone calls have been received at the church following the riot.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#43
09-30-2011, 06:57 PM
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I guess the issue closest to home to Soldiers is the Single Soldiers in the Barracks.
We separate Males from Females because of sexual lust. Separate showers so Females can go without harassment. Separate toilets, and same sex only living arrangements. Now translate that to four Genders, oh wait six Genders Heterosexual Male Heterosexual Female Gay Lesbian Transgender Male Transgender Female.
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#44
09-30-2011, 07:00 PM
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Hetroflexible Bi-Curious Bisexual Intersexed Asexual
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#45
09-30-2011, 07:10 PM
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Nate, first off, let me say how sorry I am that something so terrible happened to you. I can understand why this is such a painful subject for you and why you are so personally invested in it. I in no way excuse what happened to you or exonerate the scumbag[s] who did it. I respect your feelings about this issue, but I don't share your opinions.
Unfortunately, every civil rights movement has its radical fringe elements. The largely peaceful African-American civil rights movement of the 1960s had its Black Panthers. Apparently, the Gay Rights movement also has such elements. I really don't think that this means that DA-DT should stand. Neither do I think that it's fair to condemn or punish an entire class of people for the heinous acts of a few. I know quite a few people with racist beliefs/feelings/thoughts based on their personal or second-hand experience with one or a couple or a few members of a certain minority group (ag. "My cousin got murdered by a black man."). These poor folks are basing their entire world view on a tiny, tiny, tiny sample size. They are quick to point out examples of bad things done by people belonging to said minorities, while ignoring anything good or noble done by others. And these poor folks ignore the benign nature of the vast majority of the minorities they villify. It's a logical fallicy. I also don't quite understand that argument that the repeal of DA-DT will somehow encourage radical gay military men and women to disrupt military operations by conducting mass acts of moral terpitude or whatever. Even if a couple of instances of such behavior by gay members of the military occurs (which I seriously doubt), does that mean that all gays should be closeted or even banned in the U.S. armed forces. If a couple of white supremisists in the U.S. military commit a violent crime, should all white people be banned? If a straight a few straight military men commit a sexual assault on a female military woman, should all straight men be banned? It's just not logical or rational. Also, the article you posted seems to describe an event that took place 18 years before DA-DT was repealed. I'm not sure how it's germaine to the debate here.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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#46
09-30-2011, 07:19 PM
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Wow Rae... that's classy. Call me a bigoit when I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT punishing all Openly Gay men and women. You didn't get a single thing I was talking about. Not. One. Bit.
I don't know how i can explain it any plainer so people can understand just what the hell I am saying. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, DON'T PERSUE" was a policy that took a persons sexual orientation and made it a NON-ISSUE. It made us all EQUAL in the eyes of the law. It didn't not make protected classes of a single group of people who have something different about them. It placed EVERYONE on the same footing. And if you can't understand that, it's your problem. Don't talk to me again. Because I have had enough of people calling me a bigiot, a racist or a homophobe. Especially when I have more friends, loved ones and family who span the spectrum of humanity than those who are calling me those horrible names.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#47
09-30-2011, 07:36 PM
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The military has never been a forum for significant civil disobedience, for reasons that should be obvious. The military authorities come down like a ton of bricks on soldiers that try to subvert the military mission. I just do not see any significant numbers of gays joining the military and going through basic and advanced, just to stage a scene in the name of activism.
I suppose it is possible, as activists have gone to extremes in the past, but I do not see how this has to do with DA-DT. Gay activists could have done this at any time correct? What stopped this type of activism under DA-DT?
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#48
09-30-2011, 07:46 PM
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Nate, you misunderstand. I'm not calling you a bigot. I did not mean to imply that and I am sorry that I offended you and I think I understand why you are reacting defensively to my post. Please accept my apology.
I guess I went about constructing my counterarguments in the wrong way. I was using similarly charged episodes in our history/issues in our society to point out the flaws in your position. I see now that this was the wrong way to go. I'm not going to slink away and be silent, though, because you are mad at me. If you have the right to share your opinions here, then so do I. Quote:
So, if back in the day a straight soldier was heard talking to his barracks-mates about his wild weekend with a female stripper, or domestic life with his wife, or relationship problems with his girlfriend, he would be kicked out of the military, just like the guy that talked about spending leave with his same-sex partner? Straight soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines never openly/publicly talked about their heterosexual relationships during DA-DT? They were dishonorably discharged when they did? I don't see any equality here.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 09-30-2011 at 07:52 PM.
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#49
09-30-2011, 08:50 PM
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No, you did. you insinuated that i'm a bigot for my simple expression of a fear that is held by many in the community, and tried to say that it's beause i was sexually asssulted by two men that i had a reason to be one.
You ignore the fact that I've repeatedly stated that i have friends AND family who span the specturm of humanity. What you did is just like so-called civil rights activists who call Herman Cain or Clerence Thomas racists or uncle tom's. If someone abused their position of authority and threw soldiers out for being gay during DADTDP just because they were Gay, they should be ashamed of themselves andshould be thrown out of the military without any kind of benefits. Anyone who uses a position of athority (ANY position of authority) to force their own narrow-minded beliefs on others is something that should be punished and watched out for, and called to the carpet for it when found. Those People in the barracks talking about their sextipades are BREAKING THE REGS. Even if it's hetrosexual sex they were talking about. They were the ones who SHOULD have been punished because they were creating a hostile working enviroment. We were not allowed to put up ANY pictures in our racks in the berthings, or on the walls because SOME men had been putting up nudie pictures that wouldn't have been seen by any one but themselves. That was a reg that effected everyone because of the actions of the few. I keep having to mention the fact that I have two adopted brothers who are openily gay, and that they have been involved in local, state AND national gay rights groups for decades. Hell, I've taken part in and actually MARCHED at several equal rights events. I have expressed a veiw point that wasn't just mine, but that of homosexuals who have witnessed the work they've done get unerminded by extremists who have forced perversity down others throats when they were doing the things like "up your ally" and "Folsum Street Fair" by perfroming ACTUAL homosexual sex acts and carrying out S&M acts on the street infront of everyone, incudling children. Oh, and they were especially doing it while standing beside these big signs that were saying that public nudity and violating basic public decency is against the law... and the reason why they were doing it was the fact there were police standing by having to watch and not do anything because the mayor had ordered them not to enforce the decency laws. DADTDP did make us all equal under the rules. In the policies own name spells it out. "Don't Ask. Don't Tell. Don't Persue." It's as simple as that. It's not the policies fault that there had been officers and senor NCOs who didn't live up to either the Letter OR Spirit of the regulations. I've NEVER said that openly homosexual men and women shound't be in the armed forces. For God's sake I put in almost every post about the fact I was involved in the Gay Community of every command I was assigned too. YOU made the insinuation that I'm a homophobe because i was sexually assaulted. Why the hell would i be one when it was the gays in the community who had got justice for me when it was the damn Clinton Administration who KILLED the homosexual rape investgations of not only my case but nearly a hundred others throughout the military? THEY stood by me when a i was going through the third degree when i reported the assault, and they seethed in anger and hate when they couldn't even hold me when i was currled up in a ball crying because i couldn't handle ANY MALE touching me. It took almost 15 years for me to get back to the point I could give EVERYONE I knew the same kind of hugs that I did when I would meet and leave them. Be they male or female, straight or gay. I didn't care. I treated everyone with the same love and respect that they deserved for being the Children of God. I do not hold hate in my heart. Not for the men who raped me. Not for closed minded idoits who are running the country that I love into the ground with so-called 'progressive' policies that we can planly see with the example of Greece do not work. I do not even have hate in my heart for my so-called wife who took my sons who are everything to me. An act that hurts so damn bad that I cry at just the memory of my sons. I spent Two hours in tears because of a damn mickey mouse commerical that reminded me of my infant son doing the mickey mouse club house dance. If I can't find any hate in my heart for the woman who has hurt me that damn bad, how the hell can i be a bigiot? I'm sick of people who call themselves open-minded who are anything but, who are getting away with labeling other people bigoits, racists or homophobes because they don't share the same narrow views. Who you sleep with is NO ONES business. What color your skin doesn't amount to NOTHING. It's only skin deep. Their blood and DNA is just like everyone elses. it does not make anyone better than anyone else, nor does it make them worth more or less than anyone else. Who you pray to (or not) is not anyone elses business as long as you are not trying to kill others just because they don't share your beliefs. I'm sick of people attacking me because of THEIR closed-minded hatefulnes. An the entire time they are attacking me with that hate, accusing me of being the one who is full of hate. NO where in this thread (or anywhere else in the world) did i say that Gays shouldn't be in the military. NOT ONCE. I only expressed the concerns of many people in the community who are worried that the worse radical elements are going to now be able to do something so damn stupid it will put the entire community who only want to be excepted for WHO they are, and not WHAT they are back. That we remember the the statements that all of us really want, is a world were EVERYONE is judged by the Content of their Character and not the color of their skin, not by their sexual orientation, not by their religious (or lack their of) beliefs. That it is not the government's job to provide equal outcomes, but to ensure that we all can start out with the equal opurtunities to achieve life, liberty and the persuit of private property & happiness without a fear that someone is going to kill us because we're different in some percieved way.
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#50
09-30-2011, 09:04 PM
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Wow. I wake up this morning, log on to check the forum and this conversation is not only still running, it's getting MORE heated? Maybe I shouldn't have moved this to a new thread, I probably should have locked it like I threatened to.
Nate, I understand you're upset and I sympathise with your personal experiences. Matter of fact pretty much everyone who has responded to your posts in this thread seems to empathise with you. You're among friends here. If this thread is just going to continue to upset you shall I lock it for your sake? For the record (and this is directed generally, not to one specific person) I like to moderate with the lightest hand possible. I'm totally against censorship and the stifling of free expression. But I'm worried that this thread is generating bad blood and I'm not sure if it's continuation will bring more good than bad. Ball's in your court, gentlemen. If things are still going south a couple of hours from now, this thread will be closed.
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#51
09-30-2011, 09:05 PM
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Nate, you're right, I have no idea what's going on here. I'm still very confused as to what your position on DA-DT and gays in the military (then and now) is.
Once again, I am sorry for offending you. That was not my intention. I guess I will opt out of this discussion. It was never meant to be personal but that is what you are making it. I'm not sure how to respond to accusations of close-mindedness, and hatefulness. I've apologized to you; I meant it (and still do). I should have left it at that. At this point, I believe that too much damage has been done. I regret participating in this thread.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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#52
09-30-2011, 09:37 PM
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I think that with this thread, we took a grenade to the face.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#53
09-30-2011, 10:14 PM
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Rae, how hard is it to not understand where i stand?
Haven't I stated it repeatedly, that I had no problem with openly homosexual men and women in the armed forces. That "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Persue" took something that was an entirely PRIVATE matter and kept it Private. That when i was in the Navy I was part of the alternative sexuality community of every command that I was assigned too because I would get hit on by a homosexual servicemember who thought i was gay because of my sexual naivate due to my virginity. While I didn't like the way that the military came up with DADTDP policy, i supported it and felt that it made us all equal. THe part I didnt like was because it was a policy that at the time it was created... a political ploy of a politician who was playing politics with a group of people's lives. Just because of a single facit of something in their lives. That kind of political action that is dividing us from each other. And they are doing it today. I get called a bigoit, a racist, a homophobe an islamophobe and half a dozen other things because I disagree with some of the policies that current administration has been doing that has been hurting the American Republic that I love. That they are playing idenity politics to divide us against one another. Now while DADTDP wasn't perfect, namely because there were narrow-minded people who were in positions of authority who had forced their beliefs on others, and did not live up to the Spirit or Letter of the Regulations that were suppose to make us all equal. Is that the fault of the policy or of the people who are not carrying out the policy? Paul spoke of counseling junior personnel who were homosexual and didnt use it against them. That's how DADTDP was suppose to work. He didn't prosecute them, he treated them as equals and helped them iny way he could within his power as a senior service member. He was the exlempary example of how the policy was suppose to have worked. Every modern military on Earth has prosecuted homosexuals in the service, that does not make it right. And it is going to take a while to get rid of the bad apples who didn't live up to the example that Paul set. By allowing identity politics to get a foothold in the armed forces, we are opening the door for bad things to happen when people who put that one facit of their idenity above all others are able to get in and cause problems. And there is a history of people within our community who are doing this. And there are alot of members of our community who are worried about that very element getting into a position to do the kinds of things that will set EVERYTHING backwards. Rae... i accept your appoligy. and please except mine as well. I've been attacked repeatedly over the past year and half by people calling me a racist, bigoit and homophobe because an entire political party in this country has made it their policy to keep people divided into little groups that they can control and exploit. This past week i was stalked at an event by someone who was throwing insults and hate at me, all the while calling me the one who was full of hate and bigotry when all i did was give them a compliment. Saying that they were a beautiful woman, and that no one should ever make them feel any less a woman because of how they were born when she was introduced to me at the event that one of my brothers had been invovled in setting up. All because they saw one of the republican campaign buttons on my utility vest, and saw my pro-military buttons and patches.
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#54
09-30-2011, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
I can really confuse a lot of people, especially fellow Democrats, with my views. "How can you be against both the anti-gun lobby and the pro-gun lobby? How can you believe in personal gun ownership rights and believe the Second Amendment never had anything to do with personal gun ownership? How can you be a Democrat and still think that US prisons should be the worst shitholes imaginable?" Nit, nit, nit...
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com Last edited by pmulcahy11b; 09-30-2011 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Amazing how a little punctuation error changes the whole character of a post
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#55
09-30-2011, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Me i have problems with democrats who like to say Republicans have done nothing for civil rights, when it was the democrats who had segreated the armed forces and who fillibustered civil rights laws among other things. Neither party is as pure as the wind-driven snow and have their problems. Neither the Conservative or Constutionalist Party are nationwide so I have to work with the Republicans until we can get a national conservative or constutional party when the other party is engaging in devisive political gamesmanship. And it wasn't razzing that this person was doing. it was histerical verbal and physical assaults.
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#56
09-30-2011, 11:22 PM
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At the risk of thread drift... I have just read James Ford Rhodes' History of the Civil War, which made clear a fact I had read before- the Republican Party, under Abraham Lincoln, was seen as the Radical party, while the Democratic Party was the party of vested interests, which voted against Emancipation, increased taxes, etc...
As a non-American, I found this a little surprising. When did the parties swap ends of the political spectrum?
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#57
09-30-2011, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
The Republicans as a whole did at one time belive in big government as the answer to all ills, but that seemed to switch to the other party during the FDR era when Progressives had been pretty much discredited by Wilson and his policies... and really got discredited with the fact that the National Socialists in Germany and the Facists in Italy had adopted their policies and methods. Unfortuatnely, people today aren't looking at where things got their start... tracked them through history and seen all the things that were associated with that passage through time, and all the blood and suffering that has come form it.
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Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#58
10-01-2011, 12:07 AM
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My friends, we've crossed into the realm of politics once again. Whatever each of us may believe about the evils, hypocrisy, and poor personal hygiene of one party or another, this is not the place to give vent. From this post onward, I'm going to delete every following post on this thread rather than play the game of he-said, I-said, why-are-you-showing-favoritism-to-Johnny. PM each other. PM me and tell me I'm a [insert preferred derogatory here].
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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