Great Lakes vs Mississippi Usefullness

[kalos72]

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kalos72

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

The vessel I encountered on Lake Ontario near Toronto was called the Anticosti. This was in 1994. She wasn't very big, but she had guns (20mm on the foredeck and 2 .50's on the bridge wings). She was headed North towards the St. Lawrence at a leisurely 8 knots.

[Legbreaker]

Given the inaccessibility of the lakes to Pact naval forces, it would seem almost impossible for any armed military vessel to remain there during the war. Icebreakers, rescue vessels and the like sure, but nothing with anything heavier than a machinegun or two I'd think. All the bigger, more militarily capable vessels would surely be better utilised where there's an actual threat.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by kalos72

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

Which ships are you talking about? the Bay and Porte Class?

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The vessel I encountered on Lake Ontario near Toronto was called the Anticosti. This was in 1994. She wasn't very big, but she had guns (20mm on the foredeck and 2 .50's on the bridge wings). She was headed North towards the St. Lawrence at a leisurely 8 knots.

HMCS Anticosti (MSA 110) was an Anticosti-class minesweeper that served in the Canadian Forces from 1989 to 2000. Originally an oil rig support vessel, she was purchased in 1989 and saw service until the entry of the newer Kingston-class coastal defence vessels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Anticosti_(MSA_110)

She was one of two the other being HMCS Moresby (MSA 112)

HMCS Moresby (MSA 112)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Moresby_(MSA_112)

[kalos72]

One thing here thats still confusing to me.

When you look up the Corps of Engineers they are all military like. Listed under DoD, divisions, etc.

But how would you know what units were responsible for say the SOO Locks?

Are they based/organized like other military units? How can I tell who was assigned those locks come 1996/1997?

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Given the inaccessibility of the lakes to Pact naval forces, it would seem almost impossible for any armed military vessel to remain there during the war. Icebreakers, rescue vessels and the like sure, but nothing with anything heavier than a machinegun or two I'd think. All the bigger, more militarily capable vessels would surely be better utilised where there's an actual threat.

Ahem.
USS Niagara, Erie, PA, armed with 4x32# carronades. Fully reconstructed and operational in 1990. Hell, even loaded with langrage (scrap iron, bolts, chain links), it would beat hell out of most modern construction on the Lakes.
http://www.flagshipniagara.org/wp-co...ifications.pdf

[kalos72]

The basis for yet another campaign hook...

In some areas, people with the correct skills weren't even enough. Yes a good mechanic might be worth his weight in gold, but one with years working on the M2 Bradley you are trying to repair is worth TEN TIMES his weight in gold.

So for things like the lock system on the Mississippi River or the ones along the Great Lakes and St lawrence Seaway, experience on those specific systems wasn't something that could be taught so the Titan Project Team needed to figure out a way to find and recruit the experienced staff it needed and then support them until the Project was kicked off.

Working on a DoD sanctioned project, even if Top Secret, Titan had access to all the information from the US Corps of Engineers regarding the US locks. They had engineering plans, technical details. Emergency Contingency Plans, everything historically that was relevant to the Project.

In addition, they had access to the personnel. Considering all the things the US Corps of Engineers were responsible for either building or maintaining by the 1990’s, they were the perfect source of skilled personnel with the perfect experiences.

In 1994, in cooperation with the Army Corps of Engineers and the DoD, Titan Enterprises recruited and organized teams of veteran engineers that would spend the next 2 years working with current USACE staff responsible for the maintenance and operation of several key USACE divisions to provide the Project with the necessary skills to continue operation and maintenance in accordance with the Project guidelines.

This “mentoring program” also extended to the Canadian agencies responsible for the Canadian side of some of the areas of key interest, although that international cooperation was less involved and happened over a much shorter time period. The results were the same, Titan having skilled, knowledgeable staff able to support all the prime areas of interest for the Project by 1996.

Copies of of relevant plans/details/schematics, spare parts and necessary tools and equipment were stockpiled for each of those locations, awaiting the staff to begin the rebuilding process.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Ahem.
USS Niagara, Erie, PA, armed with 4x32# carronades. Fully reconstructed and operational in 1990. Hell, even loaded with langrage (scrap iron, bolts, chain links), it would beat hell out of most modern construction on the Lakes.
http://www.flagshipniagara.org/wp-co...ifications.pdf

Well, yes, but not exactly modern though are they... Anyone with even a hand held grenade launcher will usually have better accuracy and effective range than a ship with even the heaviest carronade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade#Range

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by kalos72

One thing here thats still confusing to me.

When you look up the Corps of Engineers they are all military like. Listed under DoD, divisions, etc.

But how would you know what units were responsible for say the SOO Locks?

Are they based/organized like other military units? How can I tell who was assigned those locks come 1996/1997?

The Corps of Engineers is the world largest Civil Works Organization, The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is organized geographically into eight permanent divisions all reporting directly to the HQ. Within each division, there are several districts. Districts are defined by watershed boundaries for civil works projects and by political boundaries for military projects.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...s_of_Engineers

https://www.usace.army.mil/

Great Lakes and Ohio River Division (LRD), located in Cincinnati. Reaches from the St Lawrence Seaway, across the Great Lakes, down the Ohio River Valley to the Tennessee and Cumberland rivers. Covers 355,300 square miles (920,000 km2), parts of 17 states. Serves 56 million people. Its seven districts are located in Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Louisville, Nashville, Pittsburgh, and Huntington, West Virginia. The division commander serves on two national and international decision-making bodies: co-chair of the Lake Superior, Niagara, and Ontario/St Lawrence Seaway boards of control; and the Mississippi River Commission.

I believe Great Lakes and Ohio River Division (LRD) would be commanded by a General of some sort

[kalos72]

I have done that basic research, thank you.

But really, if there is a General, of what unit? There isn't anything in any ORBAT I have found that shows where USACE gets its people or how they are organized. Surely 8 people in New Orleans aren't doing all the work for that district?

Do they use regular Army Engineers? Are certain US ARMY engineering units assigned to support them or a district?

[Legbreaker]

And are those units and/or personnel liable to be pulled away from their peacetime roles and thrown into combat support positions over in Europe or wherever....?

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well, yes, but not exactly modern though are they... Anyone with even a hand held grenade launcher will usually have better accuracy and effective range than a ship with even the heaviest carronade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade#Range

Quite correct, if Niagara was expected to go on patrol just as she stands, unmodified.
However...
Seeing as how she is a part of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's Historical Commission, I could readily see her impressed into State service as an adjunct of the 28th Division PA National Guard, or the PA State Police, or Fish and Game Commission, or lots of other job slots as deemed necessary for the continued operation of the Commonwealth. And if a few National Guard M2s and/or surplus mortars or recoilless rifles are allotted for self-defense against smugglers, drug runners, or gang activity, that'd be all right, too.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

... But from what I've seen on Discovery Channel, Science Channel, Smithsonian Channel, etc, the rest of the Great Lakes are more like a small ocean in currents, water conditions, and especially, weather.

As we all begin to hum The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. :-)

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I don't think they'd put a carrier on the Great Lakes, though -- you couldn't get them there in the first place

No, but they have built them:

USS Sable and USS Wolverine, used on the lakes during WW2 to train carrier pilots, so real carriers could be at sea. Coal-fired, and paddle-wheeled.

Now, these (if reproduced) would not be capable of handling jets. But something similar with landing space for a few helicopters with some space could be built easily enough atop a lake freighter. It could be stationed where needed as a mobile offshore refueling/rearming base...

Uncle Ted

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

And if a few National Guard M2s and/or surplus mortars or recoilless rifles are allotted for self-defense against smugglers, drug runners, or gang activity, that'd be all right, too.

The reason why carronades are inaccurate? Their high, arcing fire much like a mortar (not to mention the impossible task of actually moving the weapon on the ship to track targets). Basically they're a form of mortar but with a somewhat flatter trajectory and therefore really only useful on calm waters.
Anything that can be swivelled around quickly and track targets independently to the movement of the ship however would very likely be quite useful. Mortars though I think are best reserved for land mounts or shore bombardment (although could be used if the conditions allow).

Originally Posted by unkated

Now, these (if reproduced) would not be capable of handling jets. But something similar with landing space for a few helicopters with some space could be built easily enough atop a lake freighter. It could be stationed where needed as a mobile offshore refueling/rearming base...

Can't see the resources being spent myself. Early on while jets are available they're virtually useless. Later and there's more pressing needs.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I have done that basic research, thank you.

But really, if there is a General, of what unit? There isn't anything in any ORBAT I have found that shows where USACE gets its people or how they are organized. Surely 8 people in New Orleans aren't doing all the work for that district?

Do they use regular Army Engineers? Are certain US ARMY engineering units assigned to support them or a district?

is

First of all of this information, you can find on the USACE website

The Corps in employs around 37,000 persons both military and civilian the military pers are from the engineer's branch. Now the number for units and breakdown of each vary. In USACE the districts are the smallest unit the number of persons in each district depending on the size and what the Corps operations in each district. As an example, the Corps operates the Clarence Cannon Dam on the Salt River at Monroe City, Missouri. So how people work at a power dam? Also, The Mississippi Valley Division’s navigation responsibilities include planning and constructing navigation channels, locks and dams, and dredging to maintain channel depths of the harbours and inland waterways within its 370,000-square-mile boundary. The division operates and maintains 4,200+ miles of navigable channels, 62 locks, 51 shallow-draft ports and seven deep-draft ports. In partnership with local port authorities, District personnel oversee dredging and construction projects at numerous ports and harbours.

Now the Corps also has purely military units like the 249th Engineer Battalion (Prime Power) which provides commercial-level power to military units and federal relief organizations during operations. Additionally, the commander serves as the Commandant of the U.S. Army Prime Power School, the institution responsible for the development of Army and Navy power generation specialists. The organization is charged with the rapid provision of Army generators to support worldwide requirements.

The Corps also has a number of persons you deal with planning and construction of major public works project, this includes hydrological data capture and surveying operations.

[Olefin]

FYI one thing you have to keep in mind that in the timeline there would be at least two and possibly three steam fired coal ships still in operation on the Great Lakes

SS City of Midland 41 was a four thousand ton train ferry that in our real world was converted to a barge in late 1997 - but with the need for transport and the oil shortage most likely would have still been operational - and she operates on coal, not oil

SS Badger is still operating on the Great Lakes today - again a 4000 ton coal powered steam fired train ferry

SS Spartan was used as a parts ship for the other two - but might be able to be made functional

Those two (or three) ships would be hugely of use to either CivGov or MilGov - and are more than big enough to mount a decent amount of armament on them

and these are big ships - they had staterooms and other accommodations - they could haul 600 or more in comfort - and probably a lot more in less comfort - i.e. troops and their vehicles

Not sure if they have been discussed here before - they are home ported in Wisconsin and go back and forth to Michigan

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI one thing you have to keep in mind that in the timeline there would be at least two and possibly three steam fired coal ships still in operation on the Great Lakes

SS City of Midland 41 was a four thousand ton train ferry that in our real world was converted to a barge in late 1997 - but with the need for transport and the oil shortage most likely would have still been operational - and she operates on coal, not oil

SS Badger is still operating on the Great Lakes today - again a 4000 ton coal powered steam fired train ferry

SS Spartan was used as a parts ship for the other two - but might be able to be made functional

Those two (or three) ships would be hugely of use to either CivGov or MilGov - and are more than big enough to mount a decent amount of armament on them

and these are big ships - they had staterooms and other accommodations - they could haul 600 or more in comfort - and probably a lot more in less comfort - i.e. troops and their vehicles

Not sure if they have been discussed here before - they are home ported in Wisconsin and go back and forth to Michigan

City of Midland 41's last voyage was in November 1988, though - she spent 9 years in dock before being converted to a barge. Depending on the level of preservation work done on her, she may have been unable to be economically returned to service well before she was converted to a barge.

That said, the Twilight War could have seriously changed how vessels were retired and brought back into service, so with that said, here are some other coal-powered vessels that theoretically could have been of use:

Another laid-up steam vessel is SS City of Milwaukee, a 2,942-ton car ferry that sailed from 1930-1982 and is preserved as a museum in Manistee with her steam engines intact.

There's also SS Milwaukee Clipper, a 4,272-ton car ferry preserved in Muskegon, which sailed 1904-1970 and has been a museum ship since 1977.

On the Canadian side of things, SS Keewatin is a 3,856-ton passenger and freight ship that operated 1907-1966 and is a museum ship at Port McNicoll, Ontario, but until 2011 she was at Douglas, Michigan.

One that's been scrapped but might have still been around in a T2K timeline is SS Chief Wawatam, the last hand-fed coal steamer on the lakes. A 2,990 ton train ferry and icebreaker, it sailed from 1911-1984, was converted to a barge in 1989, and scrapped in 2009. One of its triple-expansion engines is on display at the Wisconsin Maritime Museum in Manitowoc.

Finally, the two Detroit to Boblo Island ferries, SS Columbia and SS Ste. Claire, would also be potentially in use. They operated from 1902 and 1910 until 1991. They're much smaller (968 and 890 tons, respectively) and passenger-only, but could make for useful transports.

[swaghauler]

They have a fairly robust assortment of Coast Guard ships that are specially designed for use on the Great lakes. They include...

USCGC Alder 225ft Multipurpose Cutter.
USCGC Buckthorn 100ft Buoy Tender
USCGC Bramble 180ft WWII Buoy Tender
USCGC Mackinaw 240ft Heavy Icebreaker/Cutter

and no less than six 140ft Icebreaking Tugs:
USCGC Biscayne Bay
USCGC Bristol Bay
USCGC Katmai Bay
USCGC Mobile Bay
USCGC Morrow Bay
USCGC Neah Bay

Combined with the two dozen lake freighters (mostly bulk haulers), there is a lot of available shipping on the Great Lakes.

[Olefin]

and the coal powered steamers would still be working even if all the other vessels were sidelined due to lack of fuel - and given their size they could carry a pretty good amount of jury rigged armament without impacting their cargo and passenger capability

[rcaf_777]

This could happen too

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...real-1.4500966