Fishing

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

They're not farms, they're backyard vegetable plots!

Actually not off by much, as vegetable/truck farming is the main type of farm in the area. Potatoes are one of the major crops on LI, or use to be. A few acres of spuds can feed a LOT of person, at least filling them with carbs.

And roof top gardens are a very good idea... They might not supply the calories/carbs needed but are an excellent source of the vitamins/minerals needed. There are more gardeners in the Big Apple than we realize. It's just a challege.

ORGANIZATION under a strong leader is what will make the difference in long term survival of any area, not just NYC.

Also think New Jersey, across the river. Outside the city is expansive farming. They don't call NJ the Garden State for nothing. Also CT.

As for fishing, it's more a hit/miss affair than farming/gardening. Most of the east coast fisheries have suffered increasingly in the past century, but a few years after the oops they might breed back up. There's boats operating out of the area though not as many as further east or south.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Some good discussion here guys. Thanks, giving me lost of ideas.

HQ - I will definitely simplify it for "maintenance" rolls and such. But my problem now is to try and get a realistic number as a baseline for kg caught per person/day.

I was going to go with something like this:

Fishing from a boat on a large body of water will triple my catch.
Base MoS of 5 as an average - will develop a training cadre to increase the fishermens skill levels.
10hr days

Each fishermen will catch on average 150 "meals" or roughly 350kgs of fish.

This is a "compilation" of both v2.2 and 2013 rules and some assumptions for game "playability".

Here's some data you might not like, I didn't. I just got back from eight days on the gulf. We shore fished.. seven of us. We came back with ONE sizeable fish. Now I realize under 'survival' conditions I would count the hardheads and mullets we caught as food. Mullets were easy with a cast net, but under survival conditions with EVERYONE trying it the source will rapidly be depleted.

I think your rule of thumb will be good. The amount of fish consumed per meal though seems high.. Were I running the show real life, there would be stew/soup where the only thing going to waste was offal, scales and bones. Definately a time for some source of potatoes. Fish is a source of protien, usually not much energy in them unless they are an extremely oily fish. And you'll still need other vegetables/fruits for vitamins, or you population is doomed. Scurvey etal will come to take them down hard. I know this is a game, but it's something that should be considered when figuring food consumpiton, as all food is NOT created equal.

BTW it all depends on the crop and method of production as to how many acres will support one person. With a 'modern' yield on spuds at 10 TONS per acre and figuring stuffing five pounds away per person daily (I can't imagine that, but then I'm not in a survival starving situation) your can feed ten people on spuds a year.. Using more conservative yields, such as I do from pre-ww2, where yield was ~4-5 TONS per acre your down to 4-5 persons per acre. It was mentioned spuds are easy to raise, BUT remember what happened in Ireland ~150 years ago. When I do yields I take the conservative yield as a starting point, then use my concocted table to determine what kind of yield's available based on seasonal weather, experience of the workers, and just plain luck.

[jester]

Grae;

About fishing, I wholeheartedly agree on the fishing. However if some enterprising person were to start some form of aquaculture then that could produce a regular source of fish protein. As I have said several times the raising of muscles is pretty easy, hell they are a pest in and around my marina, leave a line in the water and in a week it will have small muscles growing in a month, they will be the size of your thumb.

So, raising fish is a possibility, those private koi ponds now are private fish ponds. Or in New York, they have water tanks and swimming pools atop some buildings, these, could they not be converted into ponds for raising fish like Carp, Koi, Eels and other fish that can live in stagnant water?

And as for fishing wild.

Shore fishing and other areas would surely be depleted. this goes to reason as the remaining people would have the most access to these areas.

HOWEVER!

With the breakdown of mechanization and transportation networks, would not the traditional fishing grounds out to see have a break from the constant fishing? And thus they would have a year or two or three recovery with only a fraction of vessels making the now long and dangerous journey to them. And then, those vessles will be less mechanized and much smaller than the larger vessels and even fishing fleets that sail today?

Instead of a vessel that holds fish on the scale of 30, 40 or even 100 tons of fish, they now hold 1/10 of that?

And then once things become semi organized through private communities or someone pulls it together and they use modern large sail boats as we discussed earlier they would not be able to stay out as long or carry as much so their impact would be signifigantly less which would be a benefit for the offshore fishery allowing it to recover by giving it a break, something that it really hasn't had since the begining of thei ndustrial age.

[Graebarde]

Jes.

I concur, but the drawback I see with the aquaculture in NYC is winter. The tanks/pools would more than likely freeze, though probably not solid. The species selected would have to be tollarant to colder waters. The cold cycle will also slow down the growth of the fish. But hell, it sure is worth the try. If nothing else you 'store' the catch in the tanks since you don't have refigeration to speak of?

[jester]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Jes.

I concur, but the drawback I see with the aquaculture in NYC is winter. The tanks/pools would more than likely freeze, though probably not solid. The species selected would have to be tollarant to colder waters. The cold cycle will also slow down the growth of the fish. But hell, it sure is worth the try. If nothing else you 'store' the catch in the tanks since you don't have refigeration to speak of?

I do wonder if the water tanks would freeze or at least freeze solid. Since if they are in water tanks atop buildings or roof top pools they would freeze as if they were at ground level. Couple that with insulation, after all, they use those tanks for regular water in the buildings as it is. worse case scenario there should be plenty of insulation from abandoned buildings you could scavenge. And then, put a jacket over them much as one would a jacket on their water heater. As for swimming pools, they have solar insulation covers that work really well.

Another option is build a greenhouse over it. And then of course since they won't freeze solid, many fish slowdown or do almost dormant and will simply sink to the bottom. Carp and Koi do this regularly, agan a fish that can survive in a pond or tank without running water.

I am also wondering if one could turn the tops of other buildings into nothing but a greenhouse. An example, remove the roof but leave the walls, and totaly empty the top floor which is now exposed and turn it into nothing but a garden, the walls would give some protection from winds and even put in a skylight to turn the entire floor into a greenhouse.

Other examples as like I said grow vine plants, on ledges and balconys, but also build lond narrow catwalks that are really large planters between and just below most windows, making them run from one window to the other with a wide plank as a walkway so persons can tend them.

I have wondered and thought that a large building if down right could be a self sufficient castle really. Remove the non weight bearing walls and floors of the bottom two or three floors so it is difficult for someone to get up to your area which would be the upper floors.

Or one could just burry them in solid ruble but again you would have to remove all means of gaining access from the bottom to the upper floors. And then you now have a tower that is defensible, you just drop rubble or what not down on any attacker.

Collect rain water, or have a series of pumps pumping ground/well water, pumping from the well to a lower level tank, and from there to another tank several levels up and so on until you reach the top. And then of course your gardens in large oversized planter boxes/catwalks and the roof with its fish pond and greenhouse.

Another idea would be to have drawbridges to neighboring buildings as a means of moving from one to the other without dealing with the scavengers and hostiles of the ground. Thus, you would now have a people of the sky.

[Legbreaker]

All relatively good ideas in principle, however materials and manpower might be a bit scarce to put them into practice. I can see however a handful of buildings having some of the ideas implemented - those in the heart of strongly held areas.

Fish, while a great idea (and one I'd definately be working towards) has it's own problems - where do you get your stock in the first place? Isn't the waterways around NYC seawater in which case you've got real problems keeping the water in your tank/pool/etc from simply killing your fish.

Freshwater fish solve that issue, however it raises another - where do you get enough live freshwater fish?

All problems can be surmounted given time and resources, but I don't see them as available in the first 5-6 years after the nukes, possibly even longer.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

All relatively good ideas in principle, however materials and manpower might be a bit scarce to put them into practice. I can see however a handful of buildings having some of the ideas implemented - those in the heart of strongly held areas.

Fish, while a great idea (and one I'd definately be working towards) has it's own problems - where do you get your stock in the first place? Isn't the waterways around NYC seawater in which case you've got real problems keeping the water in your tank/pool/etc from simply killing your fish.

Freshwater fish solve that issue, however it raises another - where do you get enough live freshwater fish?

All problems can be surmounted given time and resources, but I don't see them as available in the first 5-6 years after the nukes, possibly even longer.

There are several rivers that run into the harbor. As well as the water tanks atop many buildings.

As for fish, koi ponds are not that uncomon ornamnental, as well as carp and similiar fish can be found in small backwater tributaries. Simply catch a few, toss them in a bucket and transport when you are done and go from there. I would also toss in some water vegetation as well.

[Legbreaker]

Rivers are usually salty for quite a distance from the sea....
Chances are you'd have to travel dozens of miles to get to relatively fresh water unless there was some impediment to sea water mixing with the fresh such as a weir or dam.