Alternate version of New America...

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Don't think Robin of Loxley would much appreciate being grouped with Pol Pot and Carl Hughes



Frankly the Soviets get to fill those shoes in TW2K. Got yer spiffy uniforms. Got yer brutal secret police. Got yer massive army. Even got Gulags to stand in for concentration camps..

Ahhh no. The Soviets were not really in the U.S. except for Division Cuba and the ones in Alaska. The Soviets themselves really weren't made out to be bad guys in this. There were marauder groups that were mainly Soviet that were, but not the Soviets themselves. And spiffy uniforms, come on those things are cheap and ugly.

Originally Posted by sglancy12

You are all over the place dude. First you ask "Why weren't New America more like the Nazis?" then you complain that Nazis have been overused?

When did I ever state "why weren't the New Americans more like Nazis"? In fact my complaining was that they where made out to be like or baised off of Nazis.

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Okay, I still don't get your point. Are you turned off because the New Americans were made out to represent the worst aspects of the survivalist movement? Do you see the New Americans as a deliberate slight against anyone white, christian, rural, politically conservative and dedicated to self-sufficiency?

I don't see how you don't get my point? It seems you just really dig the whole ultimate bad guy evil army thing. Or you you like the idea of white, christian, rural, politically conservative, and not government backed people being the ultimate bad guys?

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements..[/quote]

Not so sure if this is true. But, the media sure likes to print headlines like that.
And I'm sure headlines like that in the 1970-1980's are what made the author go that route.

Originally Posted by sglancy12

The New Americans were certainly influenced by David Brin's Holonists from "The Postman." In that book survivalists are depicted as the reason the government fails to recover after the limited nuclear exchange and why the country breaks down into anarchy and chaos. But I don't think that the authors at GDW had an agenda concerning the depiction of survivalist..

Never read The Postman or saw that Kevin Costner movie either. I think the author picked survivalist, because the average American more then likely sees them as crazies.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Neo-Nazis are an easy target -- but they're also an easy plot device. Sometimes, those are necessary, as long as those easy plot devices aren't overused.

Yes and here is what I was saying.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Never read The Postman or saw that Kevin Costner movie either. I think the author picked survivalist, because the average American more then likely sees them as crazies.

I recommend the book The Postman (matter of fact I recommend anything by David Brin). It is good post apocalyptic sci fi. Don't bother with the film unless you like cheese.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

When did I ever state "why weren't the New Americans more like Nazis"? In fact my complaining was that they where made out to be like or baised off of Nazis.

Here's where I got confused. You wrote:

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I mean they (the GDW authors) could have made them (the New Americans) dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia. And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.

Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's.

I read that sentence I highlighted in bold and I thought that what you were saying "Why not make the New Americans like nazis instead of racist redneck militia?" So it looked to me like you were offering the Nazis as an alternative to racist redneck militia, then turning around and saying how tired and overused Nazis are. Clearly I was wrong.

I guess the problem here is I that don't equate racist redneck militias with the Nazis... or skin heads, or the Klan, or even the Aryan Nations guys. Those guys are not Nazis because they have an inherent and highly American distrust of big institutions and government. They want America to be like they imagine it was in the Mid-19th century: Run by white Christian men, where anyone else has no rights we are bound to respect, and the government can't get in the way of how you dispose of your property. Rugged frontier individualism with a dose of America for Americans and no sense of irony about the fact that except for the redskins we're all illegal immigrants.

Nazis, that is real historical Nazis and not these cheap wanna-be knock offs, don't want rugged individualism. They want to submerge their identity into a greater whole (hence all the spiffy uniforms). They want to be part of the well-oiled machine (like the Weremacht or the Waffen SS). A juggernaut of history reshaping the world (Deutchland Uber Alles). I'm not saying they are robots, but the Nazis (and fascists) of the 1930s and 1940s do not distrust the state. They love the state. They see the state as the only mechanism to solve society's problems.

As for more on who fills the shoes of the Nazis in TW2K...

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Ahhh no. The Soviets were not really in the U.S. except for Division Cuba and the ones in Alaska. The Soviets themselves really weren't made out to be bad guys in this. There were marauder groups that were mainly Soviet that were, but not the Soviets themselves. And spiffy uniforms, come on those things are cheap and ugly.

I meant globally they fit the Nazi's shoes. They start the war, they go nuclear first, they dump their prisoners into lethal gulags, their secret police execute anyone even suggesting that maybe this war isn't a good idea or that perhaps this or that order might not be the best idea. They are the bad guys.

Sure, you get Red Army commanders with some humanity and sense of proportion. But the KGB is an evil organization at it's core. It's going to make sure that the Red Army dies in place fighting for war-aims that are clearly impossible to achieve while the KGB and Party officials sit it out in the backfield. They are the Gestapo.

As for their uniforms not being spiffy... Okay maybe they don't dress as sharp as the SS with those black uniforms with the silver piping... but come on! The Nazis were the best dressed evil bastards in history. You can't top them for style. A direct comparison isn't fair. I'm just saying that their uniforms would be spiffier than the Army surplus that the New Americans would be wearing.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

It seems you just really dig the whole ultimate bad guy evil army thing.

I have my ultimate bad guy evil army thing... it's called the Soviet Union. Sure there aren't enough of them in the CONUS, and if anything I almost feel sorry for the Division Cuba because they are so freakin' screwed. But yes, I dig having the Sovs on US soil so much I'm willing to overlook the logistical impossibility of getting so many of them into Alaska. Go Wolverines!

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Or you you like the idea of white, christian, rural, politically conservative, and not government backed people being the ultimate bad guys?

The history of this country demonstrates that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient has too often translated into "I'll kill you if you try to change things." Sure, we've had rinky-dink leftist terrorist groups like the SLA, the Weathermen, the ALF and the ELF, but they are usually little better than a bad joke. This isn't Europe with its Red Army Faction, or the Red Brigades. Our leftists get university jobs and spend their time whining about America's racism, sexism and imperialism and generally engaging in self flagellation over all of America's sins.

Political violence in America comes more often from the far right, not the far left. It's always been more wide-spread, more accepted, and more organized on the far-right than on the far left.

But that doesn't mean I get off portraying white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient folks as the ultimate bad guys in a role-playing game so I can pretend that my political biases represent reality. In fact, I believe that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient is the freakin' back bone of this country. They do all the heavy lifting around here. They're they guys that keep this country fed and most often fill the ranks of the military. In the TW2K world they are indispensable for rebuilding the country. Unfortunately they are also susceptible to New America's message, particularly if the message is wrapped in some half-truths and outright lies to convince folks that they are not really going to end up in a fascist state divided into racial castes.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[waiting4something]

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore. I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore.

This thread teetered on the edge of going too political, but I am glad that we can come to a civil conclusion even on a very hot button topic. This forum can usually pull itself back from potential bad blood better than most forums. That is why I generally stay hands off, as we can usually talk it out. As is almost always the case, I am very proud of this forum and its members.

Kudos Gentlemen

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.

In my homebrew timeline I prefer that the Red Chinese and Soviets patch up their ideological bickering because the hard liners in both governments realize that the real enemy is the their own domestic populace. They have to keep the citizens sufficiently cowed and sufficiently fed otherwise the pro-democracy movements will continue to grow, achieving what it did in real life: toppled regimes in Eastern Europe and the USSR as humpty dumpty.

I was never comfortable with the US helping Red China in the TW2K timelines. Not that I don't think we would have "played the China card," but supporting Red China in a Sino-Soviet war is too much like being in bed with Stalin during WWII. Gives me the creeps. I'd be happier just letting them hash it out amongst themselves.

So just to be clear, I think the US would have supported China during a Sino-Soviet war as envisioned by GDW, but I wouldn't have liked it.

And for reasons I've stated elsewhere, I think a prolonged conventional Twilight War is more likely if the PRC and the USSR are fighting against the West.

Somehow we have to get back on topic to New America.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

[Webstral]

In Thunder Empire, the populace of SAMAD all pretty much become government employees. They obtain a Government Service rank based on what they can do. If you have no skills but can work hard and have US citizenship, you become a GS1. Almost anybody can be used in the labor battalions. Those who can't work the fields or in construction still might have a place in the machine shops, which are always hungry for labor.

As has been said before, what sets New America aside is not their interest in triage. New America's motives are far different than, say, MilGov's or CivGov's. New America is looking to create an Aryan United States. With the possible exception of the Florida enclave, New American cells would value a white man with no skills more highly than a black or Hispanic doctor, agricultural specialist, chemist, or engineer. As a rule, MilGov or CivGov will be nearly color blind when it comes to valuable skills. (Racism hides in unexpected places.)

Webstral

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by kalos72

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

Like I said earlier: Life Boat Politics. Any group under sufficiently dire stress could end up making these kinds of decisions. What starts as an underfed refugee camps could end up turning into something like a low-tech version of the City from Logan's Run. Only instead of killing or driving off the old, the refugee camp drives out anyone who isn't contributing to the survival of the majority.

But there is something to consider. TW2K is usually set around two and a half years after the nuclear exchange. There have been two harsh winters and a kind of "nuclear autumn." Refugee camps have suffered massive casualties by this time. The old, the sick, the handicapped, the mentally impaired, the mentally ill... all these kinds of people may have been either Darwined or even Malthused out of the equation by either the environment or even their fellow humans. By the time the players arrive on the scene, the weakest (pre-war) links have probably been removed. The social triage will no doubt continue as people get sick and injured, but by the summer of 2000, most camps are going to be down to their hardiest members. Any triage in the face of food supplies is going to be based on the individual's skills and ability to help the group. Not just what has someone done in the past, but what can they do in the future. Of course anyone with skills who refuses to use them might be subjected to some very brutal persuasion.

Originally Posted by kalos72

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

I've seen post apocalyptic fiction where the communities supplies were manipulated to create false shortages in order to prompt the community to conduct a lottery to determine who had to be kicked out into the wilderness. Of course the lottery was manipulated too to ensure that political and personal enemies were forced into exile. So don't think that some ruthless people couldn't evoke "lifeboat politics" to get what they want.

Originally Posted by kalos72

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

There is a TW2K scenario published in GDW's Challenge magazine issue #44 called "Crossburn." In it there is New America Cell that has broken with HQ because they realize if they throw talented "racial inferiors" out of the lifeboat, then the whole community is going to fail. They abandoned the orthodox racial agenda in favor of raw survival.

The scenario also features a band of marauders/deserters from the 108th ID (all of whom are racial minorities) who deserted because the command of New America is falling under the ideological influence of New America.

The scenario was significant because it mixed it up to make the standard villains red herrings.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.

The Postman is about the only movie I liked better than the book. The novel was very science fiction oriented, what with artificial intelligence and genetically engineered super troopers. The movie humanized General Bethlehem. I thought the movie made more sense, although I have to ignore the ending and some of the more silly sentimental moments in the middle.

Webstral

[Raellus]

Any time that there is a vacuum in the power structure, something or someone will eventually fill it. With the near collapse of the American federal government after the TDM, there would dozens of power vacuums from coast to coast. Whether a single entity like the New America of T2K canon would fill all of them is the question. I'm still not sure where I come down on this one. But I'm considering starting a CONUS-based campaign and that started me thinking seriously about this topic for the first time.

I've always liked the clear cut black and white of the Cold War rivals- it made perfect sense to me as a naïve pre-teen/teenager back in the mid-to-late '80s. Since then, I've come to see the world in all of its many shades of grey. Having a domestic enemy that is the same nationality as myself presents an interesting dilemma that I'd like to explore more. Naturally, New America was an immediate candidate to fill that domestic bad guy role. I've been thinking a lot lately about what New America would look like and this old thread provides a lot of good food for thought.

I recently watched a one-hour show on the National Geographic channel that briefly profiled three widespread American militia groups, all operating under the "Watchmen" moniker. One was in Florida, one in Ohio, and the last in Arizona. If they were directly linked in any way other than name, the show didn't say. I was left with the impression, however, that they were largely unaffiliated organizations. On a bit of an aside, they did however display a comically common body type- at least half of the militiamen caught on camera were grossly overweight. Their respective leadership cadres were very careful to be PC in their respective interviews. None of them publicly espoused any anti-government views; they all cited disaster preparedness and self-sufficiency as they raison de etre'. In fact, they all claimed that they existed to supplement existing government agencies in the event of an apocalyptic event. Every militia member across all three groups, aside from one Hispanic-looking man in the Ohio militia, was white. The Arizona group seemed the angriest of the three. Border security was their primary concern- they claimed that they're main quarry were foreign terrorists but their was a distinctly broad xenophobia in their rhetoric. By and large, all three of the Watchmen groups came across as earnest, politically moderate (or at least not quite extreme right leaning), well equipped poseurs.

I don't see something like New America as being far fetched. There's historical precedence in the United States. Buoyed by the Hollywood blockbuster, Birth of a Nation, Ku Klux Membership surged during the 1920s, albeit with a broader scope to its antipathy than its original iteration (Eastern and Southern European immigrants- Jews, and Catholics- as opposed to newly freed African-Americans, although black people weren't off the hook either) . It didn't wane in popularity again until its leader was accused of major sex crimes. To get back to my main point here, as many posters have previously stated, extremists tend to flourish in times of severe socio-economic stress, and political instability. It's no accident that the Russian Revolution happened during WWI, or that Fascism arose in the decades immediately after. A general breakdown in society provides extremists fertile soil in which to plant their seeds of anger and resentment, which often grow into hate.

Given said cataclysm, I can easily see a particularly well funded, supplied, connected extremist bringing together a lot of disparate militia groups under a single unified national organization in the United Sates. How much control at the local level this central figure would have would likely not be that great. Once again, communication, command, and control would be severely hindered by the devastation of multiple nuclear strikes. As a result, you'd see a lot of regional variation in organization, activities, and possibly even doctrine. Some New America cells might be very neo-Nazi in their outlook and activities. Others might not. That said, I still think that there would be more commonalities than differences.

If there was a blueprint for some sort of national militia organization in place before WWIII, then various regional groups would have a similar foundation. If someone wrote a book less radical and more widely distributed than something like the infamous Turner Diaries, then the scores of local and regional groups that would rise to fill the vacuum left in the wake of the TDM would have a popular model for their activities and organization. If the author of that popular book were still alive after the TDM, perhaps he could bring several of those regional organizations together, creating the active core of a more or less national movement. There would still likely be regional variation within this banner organization, but there would be some guiding principles that would link these groups together. To spice it up even more, part of the gameworld setting could be the struggle of the central New America leadership to unify and control these various local chapters.

But here are the features I think that all New America chapters would have in common:

1. Anti-[federal] government: The feds failed to protect the country, the presidential succession was a mess, and now their are two rival claimants to the mantle. Plus, real anti-fed militias really took off during the Clinton years, IRL.
2. Anti-communist: It was the Soviets, after all, that nuked America and created all of the devastation and suffering in the first place.
3. Anti-immigrant: The Mexican military invasion of the U.S. has given ample ammunition for any preexisting xenophobia-based arguments that may have had some traction before WWIII.
4. Religion: This one I'm not as sure about, but after near nuclear Armageddon, there might well be some lingering millennialism in here as well. Plus, since communism is in many ways anti-religion, there's almost a rebellious religiosity that goes hand in hand with anti-communism.

Some regional chapters may be a little more motivated by 1, some by 2, or 3, etc., but the basic framework is the same. I'm sure that not all chapters would get along. Some might fight openly for power.

Crap! It's way past my bedtime and I fear that I'm starting to ramble (heck, I probably started rambling an hour ago!), so I'd better call it a night and revisit this in the morning.

In the meantime, your thoughts and ideas are of course welcome.

[Olefin]

If you take New America as a given being anti-communist and anti-immigrant then you may actually see some New America cells aligning themselves with MilGov in its efforts in some areas - specifically in California, Texas, Arizona, Alaska and New Mexico.

Not because they support MilGov for any reason but because those areas find themselves either with Communist invaders still on their soil (Alaska and Texas) or with Mexican invaders (California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico)

Thus even though they are basically anti-US government, in those cases their hatred of Communism and immigrants could push them to the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation - at least until the invaders were gone.

The question would be - would those allies of convenience stay as such once they had pushed the enemy out - or would they then begin to fight amongst themselves again

Or put it this way - look at the fight in Army of Darkness - two human sides that hate each other but have a common enemy - they destroy them and then look at each other suspiciously - so do they then take each other on leaving in the end only one very weakened victor or unite as they did in the movie?

Could add an interesting touch to campaigns set in those areas where you have MilGov and NA acting together instead of being enemies - not endorsed of course by overall NA leadership but possible because of the relative looseness of the the overall command structure of NA - especially once Hughes gets grabbed by either CivGov or MilGov.

[Jason Weiser]

Here is my view on NA, YMMV.

New America is a product of that unfortunate heyday of 80s racial groups that occurred in the NW. Guys like these fellas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(group)

Throw in some concern about televangelism and other issues, and voila, here comes New America as a fictional construct.

Now, here's my POV. Are there racist types in the ranks? Um, yup. Anybody with any connection to the military has known at least one. They're always the scum we'd like to introduce to a towel party, but most of the time, the bastards are careful enough to keep their mouths shut. When they do screw up though, it's pretty spectacular. The good news is, they're usually the leader of a bunch of "gun-store commando" types I would not trust with a frosting gun, let alone a real one.

Hughes was basically an allegory for David Duke, make him more media savvy and with a bigger bankroll, and is New America possible? Yup. Fill out the right forms and suddenly, you've got 501(c)(3) status. Get a good media arm and you can convince the press you love puppies and kittens and all this "racist" talk is just that, talk. (Trust me, in my current position, I've dealt with the press...most of the domestic press are more content with being talking heads than getting the truth).

I agree with Web on folks "getting with the program". After something like Twilight, people are going to want people to blame for their circumstances. "Hey that <fill in the blank> has more than me!" If New America leads the mob that loots said guy's home and business, assuming he has the latter, and re-distributes it to folks who have none? Well, they just bought themselves allies, and if those grasshoppers happen to have a certain skin color exclusively? That's just a coincidence, friends.

And if you do happen to be a white redneck stereotype who manages to test into being a Second and is put over your better educated minority or just simply more liberal neighbors when they're made Thirds? Well, power is a hell of an aphrodisiac...and you just got that guy's loyalty for life. He'll do anything for you, even if it's pretty distasteful. Look at the biographies of most of the SS's top people. Before Himmler tapped them on the shoulder? They were rather unsuccessful people.

Then, add in people who don't trust the government for whatever reason, NA yanks their paranoia chain (and hey, as Olefin put it, the Feds have brought on the nuclear war, damn the facts that the Soviets had something to do with it too). A few choice ideas their way, and NA's propaganda section has got them eating out of their hand.

Simply put, is NA possible as written? It needs some work, perhaps not as strong as written, but I always pictured New America as being more willing to win by subterfuge, propaganda and just plain underhanded behavior, seeing force as something they use only when they've suborned the other local authorities.