a bit of politics and history?

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

About TV, I disagree strongly. It was not developped at all during WWII. It was developped in the 1920's and 1930's. Actually WWII never accelerated its developement, it delayed it. TV had been available to the public in the early 1950's but without the war it would certainly have been available in the early 1940's (for France).

Vichy France has nothing to do with it (actually you had no TV under Vichy). As of June 1940 all the french national press, TV and Radios were taken over by Germany. The only press publication allowed by Germany was "l'Humanité" (communist) that was printed up to 1941. Not surprising when you recall that USSR was allied to Germany and that the French communist party was instructed, by Moscow, to help the German in all their military efforts. If you want to know more about this ask U.S. historians they are good and very knowledgeable about that.

About TV, it was emiting from Paris, under strict German regulation (actually it was turned off until 1943). However, the developement was done under the 3rd Republic with a regular program as early as 1937 (100 TV in Paris). A program was on the air every evening between 20pm and 21pm (about). It was slowed down a lot as a result of the war.

In the US, General Electric started with it in 1928. 11 years before the war (First politician on TV in 1928). The admited date for its invention is around the mid-1920's (1924 or 1923) in the U.S.. By the way TV was invented by Russians who emigrated to the U.S. after the soviet revolution.

If you look closely at everything else you might find the same, Wars delay things except, of course, when the thing is a military application. Germany sent a missile to lower space in 1942 as they wanted such device to deliver an atomic bomb to New York and Washington in 1945 (U.S. have been very good and a bit lucky on that one).

I think the invention of TV is really muddled, I think about the Russian who came to the U.S., you're talking about Vladimir Zworkin. He worked for Westinghouse briefly, here in Pittsburgh I think, but went to RCA to work for David Sarnoff of RCA/NBC fame. There are many here, and I'm one of them, where we see that a guy named Philo T. Farnsworth actually invented the modern electronic TV system and Zworkin and Sarnoff "ripped off" the idea after Farnsworth did the work in the 1920's. David Sarnoff, well he does deserve some credit where it is due, but on the inventions, there are many who see him as a thief.

There is a book and a documentary by Ken Burns that was done in 1992 about the development of radio centralized on three men, Lee Deforest, David Sarnoff and Edwin Howard Armstrong. Armstrong had a lot of patents from a regenerative radio receiver, to superhetrodyne, to FM radio. Armstrong did research on FM radio with the aid of Sarnoff until Sarnoff didn't need him anymore and booted him out of the Empire State Building, then and now, the main TV/radio broadcast center for New York City. Sarnoff made FM radios and claimed they were different than Armstrong but this was not true and it was settled in court, some cases were started in the 1930's and not settled until as late as 1980.

Armstrong went on his own and build an FM tower across the Hudson in Alpine, New Jersey just so Sarnoff could see it and to "stick it to him." Evenutally, beaten down, Armstrong committed suicide in 1954 but in a way, he did have the last laugh. When 9/11 happened in 2001, the World Trade Center was home to many of New York City's radio and TV transmitters. When they fell, some stations did have backups in the old Empire State building but for some who didn't, they had to use Armstrong's Tower as a backup transmitting site and this included WNBC, the flagship station and first TV station David Sarnoff founded in 1941. Sarnoff's station was using Armstrong's tower, it was so ironic since the two men were at each other's throats. The only person laughing on 9/11 was Armstrong from the grave it seems due to that irony.

So the story is really murky on TV and radio and it is often said that there is really no true one inventor.

Back to the subject, I know the UK had TV as well from 1936, the Nazis had it and of course the French and Italians. We were kind of behind in the U.S., maybe if the war didn't happen, TV could have come about sooner although maybe a few things might have taken longer. The bad thing though is that major wars do take it's toll on consumer goods and this really delayed TV in many places. Well, no TV in Vichy France but still that did not stop science, the again for war purposes.

I know TV collectors in Europe do have quite a few sets from pre-World War II, here in the U.S., they existed too but are more rare. We did have a few TV station going during the war, but they were in New York City, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., and Schenectany, NY. When the Japanese were about to surrender but they didn't yet, a station in Washington, D.C., jumped the gun and put "War Is Over" on the TV screen and the Navy had to investigate that.

Chuck M.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I think you are right to be alright with that. People should buy as they please. What make me worry a little more, however, is the access to technology or goods. A year ago, a friend of mine was living in California using a Mac computer. As she needed some upgrade, she couldn't find it in the U.S. and was forced to order it from Hong Kong. That upgrade was not even the one from the last generation.

When I was visiting in 2003 I looked for an USB key. Everything I found was half as good as what we consider here as basic. When I ask the guy in the wide computer shop his answer was: "We don't make this" or something like. When, I was studying in the U.S. in the 1990's I used to delay some purchase as I knew I could find better stuff in U.S.. It doesn't seem to be the case anymore. When I finally got back to France, I had a full suitcase of stereo material that I smuggled through the border.. Next time I'll go to U.S. I'm thinking about doing it the other way around.

Last year I used to play "Starwars" on the internet. I tried to avoid playing with Americans. They were nice and helpful people but my computer could feel the jetlag. I could go down one floor, get a beer and their computers were still loading their character. Strangely, the company running the game was next door (almost) to their place. I finally asked. All were using computers I put in the trash can about 6 or 7 years ago. One was using a brand new computer, however, he was an expatriate living in Germany and was amazed by the quality of computer stuff that you could find there for the same price than in U.S.

Don't take me wrong we are not doing that all better. For my wife hobby, she is ordering in the U.S.A. what was built here in france, 100 miles from our place. That company just went banckrupt and I don't have to wonder why.

Yeah, I think over time, we are going to have to get used to the old adage my parents and grandparents learned during the Depression and World War II. Well, my parents don't remember much of the Depression but they do remember WWII. "Use it up, wear it out, make do or do without." Well if you truly need something, when it needs replaced, some buy used stuff. My friend bought a car for $750 for example. I'm seeing a lot of that here, many people go to thrift stores as well like Goodwill and St. Vincent du Paul. If I had room, I saw a 1969 RCA color console TV I would have loved to snag. Thrift stores are doing a good business as money becomes tight.

A little update, my 1999 computer was giving me fits and I have to find out why so I went back to my old one, a 1998 Gateway Pentium II, 266 MHz, I'm using it now. It also runs better too.

Chuck M.

[Marc]

Ok! Returning to the economic crisis, here you have a good explanation about the subrimes. All your doubts will disappear.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x68...r-subprime_fun

[Mohoender]

Chuck

About TV I was about sure for the date. I really didn't care about who invented it but found the idea funny and possibly true. After all Sikorsky was working for the Tsar before going to US.

However, it didn't seem to me that U.S. was behind. Actually I thought you were a little bit ahead.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Chuck

About TV I was about sure for the date. I really didn't care about who invented it but found the idea funny and possibly true. After all Sikorsky was working for the Tsar before going to US.

However, it didn't seem to me that U.S. was behind. Actually I thought you were a little bit ahead.

Yeah, it took us a while to have TV become popular, it had to wait until after World War II. Igor Sikorsky, my father met him once, I think he was in the Army then. He was a photographer in the Army and afterwards.

Chuck M.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

Yeah, it took us a while to have TV become popular, it had to wait until after World War II. Igor Sikorsky, my father met him once, I think he was in the Army then. He was a photographer in the Army and afterwards.

Chuck M.

I was not thinking about TV being popular. That takes time everywhere. As I know my grand father was among the first to get a TV in Belgium and that was 1952 (I think). I haven't checked about the date recently, I think that was the year for the first TV program in Belgium.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I was not thinking about TV being popular. That takes time everywhere. As I know my grand father was among the first to get a TV in Belgium and that was 1952 (I think). I haven't checked about the date recently, I think that was the year for the first TV program in Belgium.

I remember my mother's family had the first TV on the block in 1948. There was only one channel here in Pittsburgh although many shortwave radio and amateur radio enthusiasts did construct antennas so they can receive the station from Johnstown, PA (a small, coal mining and steel town to the east in the mountains) that actually had TV before Pittsburgh. Later on, there were station in Wheeling, West Virginia, Steubenville and Youngstown, Ohio and Newcastle, PA but the last one went dark quick. Everyone flocked to my mother's house to watch TV back then.

Chuck M.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

I remember my mother's family had the first TV on the block in 1948. There was only one channel here in Pittsburgh although many shortwave radio and amateur radio enthusiasts did construct antennas so they can receive the station from Johnstown, PA (a small, coal mining and steel town to the east in the mountains) that actually had TV before Pittsburgh. Later on, there were station in Wheeling, West Virginia, Steubenville and Youngstown, Ohio and Newcastle, PA but the last one went dark quick. Everyone flocked to my mother's house to watch TV back then.

Chuck M.

TV industry and consumer habits from the early days are fascinating I find -now that TV is the many headed corporate behemoths you have today .I like the idea of small stations "flying by the seat of their pants " so to say .

My campaign had a tv -channel in it a while back - the partys official propaganda instrument - PAC-TV .Many a surviving celebrity or b or c celebrity or d even found them selves coerced into appearing as anchor men,supporters etc .All of us enjoyed it whenever the party got down to do some good ole`fashion bullshitting on TV to keep the populace at bay and staining the enemies rep.Of course re-runs were the staple ,but they did make news programs and a soap (!) -the widely popular
"UNDER A BURING SUN" - a current affairs inspired ,sexy tv drama about three families and their struggles in love and business amidts the torrenst of their time . (hehe)

[ChalkLine]

[Moved from the internment camp thread by request]

The trouble with all this is that 'communist' doesn't equal 'subversive'.

Subversives are people with an affiliation to another country, where communists have a preference for another government system. It doesn't imply they want another country installing that system by nuclear war.

Also, communism is a huge field of thought. Trotskyites don't like Stalinists. Socialists don't like Communists. No one likes Totalitarians, especially socialists from a democratic country. In fact, the commies in the US are more likely to fight the invaders than anyone else, as they're witnessing an invasion of what they see as a perversion of their preferred system.

Finally, democracy is usually an important part of socialism or communism (I bet you didn't know that), and the Stalinist/Totalitarian system implied by the T2K (admittedly simplistic) canon is going to be hated by all the US socialists and communists.

Now, Russians, they'd be interned. There wasn't many Russians in the US before the war though, and those that were were political emigres; bigger haters of the USSR than anyone else.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Finally, democracy is usually an important part of socialism or communism (I bet you didn't know that), and the Stalinist/Totalitarian system implied by the T2K (admittedly simplistic) canon is going to be hated by all the US socialists and communists.

As another Historian, I think I understand what you are heading at. However, I'm not sure that the communism you are talking about ever existed in Russia. Except may be during the true Russian revolution of 1917, the one in the Spring, not the one in october, the one that put the Menchevik in power. What followed was only a successful coup initiated by the Bolchevik led by Lenin. It also represented the death of both communism and democracy in Russia. I'll also add one thing: Stalinism was the rightful heir of Leninism in its totalitarian understanding of the society.

Of course again this is an opinion only. By the way, kato can you move this to the political thread where it will be more in its right place? Another opinion.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

[Moved from the internment camp thread by request]

Now, Russians, they'd be interned. There wasn't many Russians in the US before the war though, and those that were were political emigres; bigger haters of the USSR than anyone else.

Well it depends on the time. There is a large population in North Dakota whose ancestors came from Germany via Russia. They moved from Germany to Russia to farm for I beleive it was Catherina (sp??) in about the 1840s, then left there in for the US in 1870s. My dad's generation talked about them in WW2. Before the war they were German's and told you so, spoke a mixed dialect of Russian and German at home and around town, such as the Norsk and Swedes talked their native tounges in private conversations at the time. Well Hilter came to power and we went to war, they suddenly became RUSSIANS. Well WW2 ended and the Russians were no longer our friends, and wha-la, they were Germans again. I think the thought of what happened to the Japanese is what prompted the changes in ancestory.

But there are many Americans with Russian ancestory. Now 1st generation Russians were few I think until the wall came down, which in the case of the Twilight canon it never happened.

Grae

[Mohoender]

That remind me of myself visiting U.S. in 2003. With some people I conveniently became Belgian again. Hopefully, I had to do this only with one person and that prevented my fist from crushing his teeth.

[Targan]

I know what you mean. I'm an Australian most of the time but when the All Blacks play rugby against the Wallabies I'm a New Zealander again