a bit of politics and history?

[Mohoender]

In order to prevent too much political talks on game talks. I propose to start a post on that subject. Just in case, but if you find it insane don't hesitate and say it . I don't have anything against political talk and history talk (I love it). However, before moving here, many were saying that politics was not the point and I think they are still right.

[kato13]

This board is very good at moderating itself. The only times we have ever come close to going over the edge in in threads related to politics. We have always pulled ourselves back thankfully. Surprisingly religion does not seem to be a sore spot as far as I know.

As long as everyone keeps things civil there should be no problem. I just want everyone to know that a moderator (me) practically lives on this board now. so think twice if your passions might be running away with you. It would take quite a bit for me to pull the moderation trigger, but be aware I will do it if necessary.

[Mohoender]

I know, I was not thinking about passion but I just felt concerned about an observation that was made a few weeks ago when we still were at RPGhost.

Thanks for the answer. I like it better that way actually.

[Marc]

Mmmmmm... Generally, when I found a thread that causes me too much excitation, I have so much problems to translate it to English language that I must cool me down before trying to write a reply.

No idea about what happened in RPGHost. But I'm with Kato13 regarding that this board seems very good at moderating itself. So, we can try it if people is interested. Why not?

Anyway, you word is an order here, Kato

[kato13]

I am probably being overly concerned, but in the last 24 years I have seen more boards than I can count enter into a death spiral of childish behavior over politics. Modern politics seems to be a particular problem as it is not an abstract mental exercise but a actual choice that one makes or has made.

IIRC this board only progressed to the point of passive name calling (ie "if you don't agree, you are an idiot" or "only an idiot would think .....") but it was almost enough to cause me to leave, even though I was not directly involved in the discussion. My belief in the people here kept me from leaving, and they did not disappoint me with the maturity that was eventually displayed.

All topics are open but please tread lightly. This board is my baby now and I will protect it.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by kato13

I am probably being overly concerned, but in the last 24 years I have seen more boards than I can count enter into a death spiral of childish behavior over politics. Modern politics seems to be a particular problem as it is not an abstract mental exercise but a actual choice that one makes or has made.

IIRC this board only progressed to the point of passive name calling (ie "if you don't agree, you are an idiot" or "only an idiot would think .....") but it was almost enough to cause me to leave, even though I was not directly involved in the discussion. My belief in the people here kept me from leaving, and they did not disappoint me with the maturity that was eventually displayed.

All topics are open but please tread lightly. This board is my baby now and I will protect it.

I agree.... I used to be an atheist but now I realize I'm GOD.

[Targan]

So politics huh? Well, I'm impressed by the fact that when the US banking system makes some mistakes and suffers a crash as a consequence, boy does it take most of the rest of the world with it. Hard core and sad.

[Mohoender]

So far the rest of the world is far from being down unless you coun't out China, India and Russia (about 50% of it). Nobody's is saying it but the Indian stock exchange is going up for most of the time. As we (Western countries) are saving banks with money we don't have (according to our various state deficit) someone might currently be buying a good chunk of our respective countries. May be we should start learning Cantonese, Mandarin or any Indian language .

Future will tell but nobody knows it, and obviously not our political leaders (Oops, U.S. still is in the process of choosing one).

[jester]

[QUOTE=Mohoender

Future will tell but nobody knows it, and obviously not our political leaders (Oops, U.S. still is in the process of choosing one).[/QUOTE]


As the line goes,

"Its a huge shit sandwich and we all gotta take a bite."

As for the politics and finance issue.

Well that is a big problem with international investment, and dare I go there, I dare, the European Union and tying its currency to the Euro.

It is strong generaly, and some of it was at the stake of dragging down one countries and propping up others, but when something bad happens <like now> they domino as is happening.

Remember, with issues of finance, there is always risk. And if you tie your finances to other systems well then you are exposed to the problems of that system.

A big issue here in the US is the home loan system and dare I, yes I dare SCANDAL! Part of it was several years ago the government demanded and investigated mortgage lenders for not lending to low income disadvantaged people. And other less scrupulous lenders manipulated the books lending to people who did not have the ability and should never have had a loan, but they stood to make a quick immediate profit <they did not look long term> and coupled with governmental pressure they got away with it.

And of course the doctoring the books of most of these companies, and well the bubble popped and here we are!

Another attituide is idiots who buy things they can't afford. When I worked in the law office I had so many clients who could not afford their homes, they had terrible credit ratings, had overly high interest, and paying more for the home than it was worth. And in addition the courts were increasing the alimony and child support because of the worth of the house. And they refused to end the madness. End result, they lost everything.

I think it is in part because so many people today at least in California are fiscaly irresponsible and raised with the idea of credit and credit cards are to be used and used often. Then again we are almost indoctrinated to get credit cards and buy buy buy. They do not think about having to pay for it. And that in part is a problem with society. Heck, I purchased my anatomy books last term and the school had three different fliers for credit cards they put in the shopping bag along with my books. There was a huge banner for a credit card with Wells Fargo, and now that bank has a permament booth right next to the administration office with a couple people durring most school hours hawking their credit cards.

The credit companies were overly predatory, and they were targeting people who had no buisness with credit, either they could not pay for it, or they were too imature to understand and handle it, or, they were and are playing the system taking everything they can, then ewalking away declaring bankruptcy. I actualy have several freinds who have done so multiple times. And then they start over again, its as if they do not learn from their mistakes.

ARGH!!!!!! Enough, before I go insane...okay more than I already am

[headquarters]

Luckily or sadly I am a regular income guy that stand to loose nothing and gain alot by the crisis.(as interest rates drop my house will become cheaper to keep I think).

The world has seen rescessions and economical downfall many times before .
It will pick up again , but in the meantime many tragedies on personal and other levels will be played out .

My friends father gave his son a piece of advice for the future when he was moving out at 18 :" Son you need to learn to things to get ahead in the world of tomorrow- the touch method and Chinese"

[Marc]

Good advice, Headquarters. And with the phrase ""Its a huge shit sandwich and we all gotta take a bite" of Jester I feel myself covered in knowledge

Today, at launch time, I've been talking with a friend about the financial crisis. Well, right now it's seems the typical subject to talk about in all Europe. In Spain, the economical situation of US is carefully watch these says, and sometimes I have the impression we're waiting for the arrival of the next wave that will be produced at the other side of the Atlantic.

For the moment the situations seems under control, here. But I and my friend have the opinion that this financial crisis could be one more indication that we well see important changes in the world, in the next few years. The shortage of petroleum, the rise of China, the spread of nuclear weapon capacity, the seeming fragility of an economical system based in the need of constant growing, the eternal problem in the near east ... And of course, here en Europe, we haven't two nations taking cofee in the same way. Some old factors and some new ones could change the power balance in the near future.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Marc

Good advice, Headquarters. And with the phrase ""Its a huge shit sandwich and we all gotta take a bite" of Jester I feel myself covered in knowledge

Today, at launch time, I've been talking with a friend about the financial crisis. Well, right now it's seems the typical subject to talk about in all Europe. In Spain, the economical situation of US is carefully watch these says, and sometimes I have the impression we're waiting for the arrival of the next wave that will be produced at the other side of the Atlantic.

For the moment the situations seems under control, here. But I and my friend have the opinion that this financial crisis could be one more indication that we well see important changes in the world, in the next few years. The shortage of petroleum, the rise of China, the spread of nuclear weapon capacity, the seeming fragility of an economical system based in the need of constant growing, the eternal problem in the near east ... And of course, here en Europe, we haven't two nations taking cofee in the same way. Some old factors and some new ones could change the power balance in the near future.

I agree -from early 2007 when I didnt think about any of this up til now there has been massive turbulence I think .Maybe it has been in the works since end of WWII,maybe since the end of the cold war-either way a situation that spirals downwards in a massive way like this one makes changes possible.
As the big powers face empty coffers -smaller players might act up.Shifts in political opinions of the masses are more common when there are economical problems..

I am guessing that Belgium is going to topple in the next 2 years and split into 2 ,Iceland will go into recievership/bankrupcy ,Russia will expand its influence and gain new cards to play ..

Mucho material for a new go at a MERC 2000 campaign based on current events ..

[jester]

Here is something to consider.

Russia and China were and have been playing with the market manipulating thing. Alot of this revolves around their actions, and of course OPEC, the riples affected the US and then those ripples crossed the Atlantic and are returning to the powers that basicaly helped create them.

Much like the riples on a pond when you throw rocks into it.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by jester

Here is something to consider.

Russia and China were and have been playing with the market manipulating thing. Alot of this revolves around their actions, and of course OPEC, the riples affected the US and then those ripples crossed the Atlantic and are returning to the powers that basicaly helped create them.

Much like the riples on a pond when you throw rocks into it.

Didnt this whole thing start with the US banks folding over sub prime real estate investmenets leading to an international liquid/equity crisis?

[Mohoender]

Marc I agree about the situation change worldwide. We are talking a lot also in France even as the situation remain stable. My wife compare the U.S. situation to that of Spain in the 17-18th century and I found her comparison better than any others.

HQ I would have shared your analysis about Russia but as oil is going down the level of state incom in that country will go down also. I'm convinced that Russia will do good but I doubt it to be a future major player.

Jest, I know that you are very supportive of US and you are right. If I had to trust someone that would be a U.S. citizen but if I had to distrust someone that would be a U.S. politician (or banker ). I haven't been in U.S. since 2003 and that's only because I hardly consider your country a democracy anymore. DON'T KILL ME ON THE SPOT. U.S. citizens are democratic, deeply attached to their democracy, honest (in their thinking) and trustworthy, but your administration is not currently so (or so I feel). Hey people, your are the bosses, the guy in the White House and those in Congress are your employees. I might be wrong but when you take a oath that is to the people not to the government (you can say something similar about us).

Russia and China don't have much to do with this except that they have the true wealth. You are in California and if I remember well you had an issue some years ago (15 or so) about some public contractor. The governor at the time chose an american company to do the job over a japanese one. The problem was that the american company was producing everything in Korea while the japanese would have done it in the U.S., employing U.S. citizens.

One last thing, we all talk about Russia and China but don't forget India and South America; old habits die hard. Ok, the West currently represent 50% (at least) of the world financial wealth and that is shrinking quickly (not the case when it comes to industrial and raw material production) but we only represent 15% of the population. Therefore, 15% of the world is doing bad, 5% is doing terrible (I don't really know how terrible), that hardly make it for the entire humanity.

Future will be interesting, we are all living trough a great time of world history.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Marc I agree about the situation change worldwide. We are talking a lot also in France even as the situation remain stable. My wife compare the U.S. situation to that of Spain in the 17-18th century and I found her comparison better than any others.

HQ I would have shared your analysis about Russia but as oil is going down the level of state incom in that country will go down also. I'm convinced that Russia will do good but I doubt it to be a future major player.

Jest, I know that you are very supportive of US and you are right. If I had to trust someone that would be a U.S. citizen but if I had to distrust someone that would be a U.S. politician (or banker ). I haven't been in U.S. since 2003 and that's only because I hardly consider your country a democracy anymore. DON'T KILL ME ON THE SPOT. U.S. citizens are democratic, deeply attached to their democracy, honest (in their thinking) and trustworthy, but your administration is not currently so (or so I feel). Hey people, your are the bosses, the guy in the White House and those in Congress are your employees. I might be wrong but when you take a oath that is to the people not to the government (you can say something similar about us).

Russia and China don't have much to do with this except that they have the true wealth. You are in California and if I remember well you had an issue some years ago (15 or so) about some public contractor. The governor at the time chose an american company to do the job over a japanese one. The problem was that the american company was producing everything in Korea while the japanese would have done it in the U.S., employing U.S. citizens.

One last thing, we all talk about Russia and China but don't forget India and South America; old habits die hard. Ok, the West currently represent 50% (at least) of the world financial wealth and that is shrinking quickly (not the case when it comes to industrial and raw material production) but we only represent 15% of the population. Therefore, 15% of the world is doing bad, 5% is doing terrible (I don't really know how terrible), that hardly make it for the entire humanity.

Future will be interesting, we are all living trough a great time of world history.

I gotta specify - noone is going to take the US position away from them any time soon .Russia will not be able to achieve parity with the US -probably ever again.But Mother Russia is indeed a major player today -and will be even more important tomorrow.Russia now exert spressure on the EU like it could only dream of 10 years ago .And 10 years from now -who knows?

Two other major players as you say -India and Brazil will sit at the table and command attention the next few decades.

All IMHO opinion ofcourse-rthe "H" standing for humble

[Mohoender]

HQ, I'm not saying someone is going to take U.S. position any time soon. Just that things might be changing and changing fast. However, U.S. itself might well loose its position and that might already be the case. People's view is changing dramatically and I wouldn't be surprised if U.S. become one among others (a big one so).

I'm an historian and I'm strongly against prospective history as the past never tell you what the future will be. The only thing that I'm sure of is that this crisis will leave its mark. I also have some hope in the coming U.S. election (even as I don't care about who is elected, not really my business) as I would be happy to travel to Vermont again; I'm missing my firends from there. Bah! if I continue to distrust the U.S. administration, I'll travel to Canada.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

HQ, I'm not saying someone is going to take U.S. position any time soon. Just that things might be changing and changing fast. However, U.S. itself might well loose its position and that might already be the case. People's view is changing dramatically and I wouldn't be surprised if U.S. become one among others (a big one so).

I'm an historian and I'm strongly against prospective history as the past never tell you what the future will be. The only thing that I'm sure of is that this crisis will leave its mark. I also have some hope in the coming U.S. election (even as I don't care about who is elected, not really my business) as I would be happy to travel to Vermont again; I'm missing my firends from there. Bah! if I continue to distrust the U.S. administration, I'll travel to Canada.

The US is already one among several -it has hegemony /supremacy and will retain it for a long time still .But the troubles of war ,financial instability etc have given potential for other players to grow stronger is what I meant .

Why distrust the US administration ? They are like pretty much every other administration only more powerful .

[Marc]

"May you live in interesting times". The ancient chinese curse seems to float around us. .... Thinking about learning a level 0 in farming skill?

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Marc

"May you live in interesting times". The ancient chinese curse seems to float around us. .... Thinking about learning a level 0 in farming skill?

I have it

[Mohoender]

HQ, we agree about U.S., that's what I meant also.

About the administration, it's kind of personnal but there are currently too much fear and as every administration the one is U.S. is protecting its citizen first. As a foreigner and as someone saying what I think that is potentially dangerous.

For the personnal part, I usually don't travel in countries that have policies that I strongly disaprove. Paradoxaly, I can be very supportive of a people and offensive toward a government (that would be the case with Israel and currently with U.S.). The problem is that today most western governments don't like to be offended so I critisize my own (as I'm protected by my own laws). In the case of U.S., I'm happy to do it here as I found very good people developping very constructive points (also often with very different opinions). We do it with a lot of respect and I apreciate that and, morever, it helps me greatly when deffending U.S.

Moreover, while visiting Vermont, in 2003 I ran into two bad things. First at the border as I didn't know the exact adress of my friends. I lived in the US before that, I asked for help and that worked (as americans are usually helpful) but if I had ran into a stubborn custom agent that could have ended very differently. U.S. is currently holding people illegaly even in regard of the american law and constitution, and I think that Bush administration has passed laws that are outrageous. The fact that it is bigger, makes it dangerous when it is paranoyed. Second, I was almost assaulted by someone just for being French. Of course, these kind of peoples are rare but in time of incertainty they are more dangerous. Currently, I think that things are getting better but I stated that I wouldn't cross the U.S. border as long as Bush is president.

Nevertheless, during all these time I remained confident in the American as a people, despite having a lot of friends around thinking American to be bad guys, and the recent past events proved me right.

I have more concrete reasons to feel that way but I cannot talk about them as I'm not directly involved.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

HQ, we agree about U.S., that's what I meant also.

About the administration, it's kind of personnal but there are currently too much fear and as every administration the one is U.S. is protecting its citizen first. As a foreigner and as someone saying what I think that is potentially dangerous.

For the personnal part, I usually don't travel in countries that have policies that I strongly disaprove. Paradoxaly, I can be very supportive of a people and offensive toward a government (that would be the case with Israel and currently with U.S.). The problem is that today most western governments don't like to be offended so I critisize my own (as I'm protected by my own laws). In the case of U.S., I'm happy to do it here as I found very good people developping very constructive points (also often with very different opinions). We do it with a lot of respect and I apreciate that and, morever, it helps me greatly when deffending U.S.

Moreover, while visiting Vermont, in 2003 I ran into two bad things. First at the border as I didn't know the exact adress of my friends. I lived in the US before that, I asked for help and that worked (as americans are usually helpful) but if I had ran into a stubborn custom agent that could have ended very differently. U.S. is currently holding people illegaly even in regard of the american law and constitution, and I think that Bush administration has passed laws that are outrageous. The fact that it is bigger, makes it dangerous when it is paranoyed. Second, I was almost assaulted by someone just for being French. Of course, these kind of peoples are rare but in time of incertainty they are more dangerous. Currently, I think that things are getting better but I stated that I wouldn't cross the U.S. border as long as Bush is president.

Nevertheless, during all these time I remained confident in the American as a people, despite having a lot of friends around thinking American to be bad guys, and the recent past events proved me right.

I have more concrete reasons to feel that way but I cannot talk about them as I'm not directly involved.

Ok.I understand .

Loads of good people in the US and if it wasnt for the US there would be the CCCCP -not a good alternative.And not to forget -the RPGs and Twilight in particulat are US products.

I know yanks,have worked with them as civilians and along side them in the military .people are much the same everywhere I find .No good will come from bashing the US of A ,but discussing and critizising is fair -after all its a part of the constitution over there and in France -the two first modern constitutions there ever was ,and the basis for most later ones -including our own of 1814.

So I guess I am a pragmatist - and a live and let live kind of guy .The paradox is that I got my 2safe in the comfortable rich world-citizenship values" as well.

And they tell me that whenever someone is presented as an enemy there is someone who instigated that view aiming to get something out of it .

America used to be the champion of the free world,democracy,liberty etc .But the image has become tarnished a litle every year ever since 1950.
I guess such things fluctuate-and that means that it will turn again to something else.

I really like that there are so many differnet nationalities here now.Adds good perspectives to the game in my view.Love these boards for the mature discussions,good ideas and wry humour.

[Mohoender]

HQ

Nothing to add anymore, I'm entirely buying your point. And from what I read everyone else here thinks pretty much the same on these matters.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Targan

So politics huh? Well, I'm impressed by the fact that when the US banking system makes some mistakes and suffers a crash as a consequence, boy does it take most of the rest of the world with it. Hard core and sad.

One good thing, the price of gas is down. At least I can still run my SUV.

Chuck M., Look on the bright side.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by jester

As the line goes,

"Its a huge shit sandwich and we all gotta take a bite."

As for the politics and finance issue.

Well that is a big problem with international investment, and dare I go there, I dare, the European Union and tying its currency to the Euro.

It is strong generaly, and some of it was at the stake of dragging down one countries and propping up others, but when something bad happens <like now> they domino as is happening.

Remember, with issues of finance, there is always risk. And if you tie your finances to other systems well then you are exposed to the problems of that system.

A big issue here in the US is the home loan system and dare I, yes I dare SCANDAL! Part of it was several years ago the government demanded and investigated mortgage lenders for not lending to low income disadvantaged people. And other less scrupulous lenders manipulated the books lending to people who did not have the ability and should never have had a loan, but they stood to make a quick immediate profit <they did not look long term> and coupled with governmental pressure they got away with it.

And of course the doctoring the books of most of these companies, and well the bubble popped and here we are!

Another attituide is idiots who buy things they can't afford. When I worked in the law office I had so many clients who could not afford their homes, they had terrible credit ratings, had overly high interest, and paying more for the home than it was worth. And in addition the courts were increasing the alimony and child support because of the worth of the house. And they refused to end the madness. End result, they lost everything.

I think it is in part because so many people today at least in California are fiscaly irresponsible and raised with the idea of credit and credit cards are to be used and used often. Then again we are almost indoctrinated to get credit cards and buy buy buy. They do not think about having to pay for it. And that in part is a problem with society. Heck, I purchased my anatomy books last term and the school had three different fliers for credit cards they put in the shopping bag along with my books. There was a huge banner for a credit card with Wells Fargo, and now that bank has a permament booth right next to the administration office with a couple people durring most school hours hawking their credit cards.

The credit companies were overly predatory, and they were targeting people who had no buisness with credit, either they could not pay for it, or they were too imature to understand and handle it, or, they were and are playing the system taking everything they can, then ewalking away declaring bankruptcy. I actualy have several freinds who have done so multiple times. And then they start over again, its as if they do not learn from their mistakes.

ARGH!!!!!! Enough, before I go insane...okay more than I already am

You, there is a lot of fault to go around, really no one is 100% innocent unless you are a kid. I think we have too much of a society that says, buy, buy, buy!" Got to have the latest HDTV and so on. Me, the last new TV we got was a 1982 Zenith in early 1983. We've used it daily for many hours since then. It's kind of interesting I'm watching the same TV at the age of 42 that I watched when I was 16. With HDTV, I have three of those Gov't Issue boxes so I'm ready when analogue TV goes dark. I think in the future, we will have to get used to a standard of living that is a bit lower than we've had and learn to make decisions on what to buy accordingly. I think the huge shot to our power and prosperity is that after World War II, most of the major nations were blown up to one degree or another except for the U.S. and it took them time to rebuild, anywhere from 20 to 50+ years and they are on a perch equal to us more or less. Add into the fact we lost a lot of our manufacturing jobs and you see what we have today.

Chuck M.

Chuck M.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I agree -from early 2007 when I didnt think about any of this up til now there has been massive turbulence I think .Maybe it has been in the works since end of WWII,maybe since the end of the cold war-either way a situation that spirals downwards in a massive way like this one makes changes possible.
As the big powers face empty coffers -smaller players might act up.Shifts in political opinions of the masses are more common when there are economical problems..

I am guessing that Belgium is going to topple in the next 2 years and split into 2 ,Iceland will go into recievership/bankrupcy ,Russia will expand its influence and gain new cards to play ..

Mucho material for a new go at a MERC 2000 campaign based on current events ..

I heard Iceland might by cozying up to Russia. So much for the GIUK Gap (Greenland, Iceland and UK Gap). I've heard about Belgium too where there is friction between Flanders and the Walloons.

Sometimes I think we are headed to a Merc: 2000 world or a Dark Conspiracy World, minus 95% of the monsters.

Chuck M.

[jester]

[QUOTE=I think the huge shot to our power and prosperity is that after World War II, most of the major nations were blown up to one degree or another except for the U.S. and it took them time to rebuild, anywhere from 20 to 50+ years and they are on a perch equal to us more or less. Add into the fact we lost a lot of our manufacturing jobs and you see what we have today.

Chuck M.

Chuck M.[/QUOTE]

Chuck I thought that once too, but and this is what was explained to me why our steel and auto industry took a backseat to those of Germany and Japan in the 60s.

We chugged along after WWII untouched by the war. I mean really, the only devestation was our Territories like Hawaii and that was localised mostly to Pearl, Hickam and Kaneohe, Guam, Wake and The Philipines.

But think about this. Japan and Germany were devestated, their industry destroyed.

And through recovery efforts like the Marshall Plan many of those countries were rebuilt with brand new equipment and tools of industry. Short term, it was also good for the United States as we were supplying these items. But long term bad, because we were using old technology and machinery etc, and supplied these rebuilt economies with much more modern tools of industry and thus, they were able to out produce us in those specific areas or at least become competition. Just something to think about.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by jester

Chuck I thought that once too, but and this is what was explained to me why our steel and auto industry took a backseat to those of Germany and Japan in the 60s.

We chugged along after WWII untouched by the war. I mean really, the only devestation was our Territories like Hawaii and that was localised mostly to Pearl, Hickam and Kaneohe, Guam, Wake and The Philipines.

But think about this. Japan and Germany were devestated, their industry destroyed.

And through recovery efforts like the Marshall Plan many of those countries were rebuilt with brand new equipment and tools of industry. Short term, it was also good for the United States as we were supplying these items. But long term bad, because we were using old technology and machinery etc, and supplied these rebuilt economies with much more modern tools of industry and thus, they were able to out produce us in those specific areas or at least become competition. Just something to think about.

Actually the Marshall plan ( which the Soviets and many other eastern European nations applied for too ) was a scheme to enable the western European economies to create surplus and become markets for US products.This worked great for app. 20 years -longer in some fields such as armaments technology -as there was virtually zero competition. But in the end Europeans and eventually Asian nations developed capacity to compete with the US.As the markets shrank and competition stiffened the manufacturing jobs and heavy industry in the US ( steel, cars,agriculture) etc had to downsize or even shut down in many places.This coupled with the enormous growth of the Asian economies has given American economy a hard time from the 1980s or so .The hard times are also affecting Europe in similar ways -but as you say -we had a helping hand in the beginning and got a flying start ,as well as having had to pull it self up by its neck - an upward struggle that made the economies more efficient -for a while .

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

One good thing, the price of gas is down. At least I can still run my SUV.

Chuck M., Look on the bright side.

If your SUV had been a diesel you would have been able to run it on vegetable oil. Your car would have simply smell like french fries.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Jest, I know that you are very supportive of US and you are right. If I had to trust someone that would be a U.S. citizen but if I had to distrust someone that would be a U.S. politician (or banker ). I haven't been in U.S. since 2003 and that's only because I hardly consider your country a democracy anymore. DON'T KILL ME ON THE SPOT. U.S. citizens are democratic, deeply attached to their democracy, honest (in their thinking) and trustworthy, but your administration is not currently so (or so I feel). Hey people, your are the bosses, the guy in the White House and those in Congress are your employees. I might be wrong but when you take a oath that is to the people not to the government (you can say something similar about us).

There is a lot of truth in what you say. There have been times they have listened when we managed to generate enough noise but for the most part, you are correct. I'll leave it at that. As to banker and the banking system, well, I don't have a lot of trust in that and sometimes when I pay by check, I get a little paranoid. The other day, I bought some Advantage flea treatment for my cats and I wrote a check. They scanned through one of those instant check machines and it was decline. I had more than enough money in the account to cover it. I worked with a guy a long time ago, he never trusted banks, "all they do is rip you off," he says. He paid his bills in cash and money orders. I'm not a fan of banks either.

I can make a monkey of myself very easily without having the banking system doing it for me. Later I found out that the store's system could not connect to the bank somehow, if you ask me, the banking system sucks.

Chuck M.