Alternate British Armed Forces stuff...

[natehale1971]

That's pretty much what i'm talking about... yes you'd move troops from being artillery, or electonic warfare, or what ever... and have them move over to a Home Guard like set up where they would focus the bulk of their time and efforts on rebuilding the country and community.

The 'organization' that the military would be providing would be more along the lines of, "We need to build <insert item here> at <insert location here>, and you and your Home Guard Platoon/Company/Battalion is assigned to make sure that it happens."

Originally Posted by James Langham

Being realistic, can the UK afford all of the troops? Certain units are not going to be necessary - electronic warfare, much of the artillery, air defence and heavy artillery for example. Also many service personnel are going to be unfit for service (blinded, missing limbs, etc) - these can be demobilized into jobs they are capable of. Some servicemen/women can also be converted into civil servants.

How many troops do you really need? Until you reach Scotland (and possibly Wales) you are not going to meet significant conventional forces. A better model might be part time soldiers protecting their local area behind your borders with rapid response troops (similar to the late Roman Empire). I would also guess that non-violent methods would be the preferred option for reunification (e.g. trade, bribery (e.g. well if you join us we will need an MP until we can sort elections...), better standards of living). Very much the Roman or ink blot methods of gaining control.

Whilst at the start of the war troops would be very tied to locations, after four years of war this will be FAR less important when assigning troops (compare 1917 and 1944).

It helps that I partially envisage a Roman type demobilization - here's your land now go farm and protect it...

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

The Home Service Force (HSF) would fill the role of the Home Guard. In the event of a major War it would probably be expanded and recruitement criteria probably relaxed to include those who didn't have prior military service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Service_Force

Here is the list of HSF Companies (and the odd platoon) I have been able to find complete with locations where I have found these. Note that the plan was for every TA Battalion or equivalent to form a HSF Coy.

HSF
E (HSF) (Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry) Squadron The Royal Wessex Yeomanry – Old Sarum
D (HSF) The Queen's Own Mercian Yeomanry - Telford
1 Company, Honourable Artillery Company – London
2 Company, Honourable Artillery Company – London
A (HSF) Battery, 103 Air Defence Regiment, Royal Artillery (V) – Liverpool, St Helens, Widnes)
F Company, 1 52nd Lowland Volunteers – Ayr – to RAS
G Company, 1 52nd Lowland Volunteers – Dumfries – to RAS
5 Company, 2 52nd Lowland Volunteers – Edinburgh – to RAS
Z Company, 1 51st Highland Volunteers – Perth/Kirkaldy/Dundee – to RAS
Y Company, 2nd 51st Highland Volunteers – Elgin/Inverness/Stornowray/Wick/Kirkwall – to RAS
X Company, 2nd 51st Highland Volunteers – Aberdeen/Lerwick/Peterhead/Laurencekirk – to RAS
W Company, 3rd 51st Highland Volunteers – Stirling/Dumbarton/Grangemouth – to RAS
St Lucia Company, 6th Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (Newcastle upon Tyne)
E (HSF) Company, 4th (V) Battalion King's Own Royal Border Regiment
E (HSF) Company, 5th/8th Battalion The Kings Regiment
H (York and Lancaster) (HSF) Company 4th Battalion the Yorkshire Volunteers – Doncaster/Rotherham/Barnsley
G (HSF) Company 4th (V) Battalion The Devonshire and Dorset Regiment (1st Rifle Volunteers)- Plymouth
E (HSF) Company, 2nd The Wessex Regiment (Rifle Volunteers) – Reading/Maidenhead/Winchester/Portsmouth
E (HSF) Company, 3 (V) Battalion the Royal Regiment of Wales– Cardiff/Brecon - to Welsh government
F (Nottinghamshire HSF) Company, 3rd (V) Battalion, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment –
Worksop/Mansfield/Beeston
G (Derbyshire HSF) Company, 3rd (V) Battalion, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment – Derby/Chesterfield
E (HSF) Company, 6th (Somerset and Cornwall) Battalion, The Light Infantry (V) – Bath
F (HSF) Company, 6th (Somerset and Cornwall) Battalion, The Light Infantry (V) – Truro
E (HSF) Company, 7th (Durham) Battalion, The Light Infantry (V) – Bishop/Auckland/Hordon/Washington
348 Signal Squadron (HSF) Inns of Court and City Yeomanry (The Devils' Own)
18 Platoon, (HSF) 6 Coy, 5th (V) Battalion, Royal Anglian Regiment
218 (HSF) Squadron, Royal Corps of Transport (Hull)
300 (HSF) Squadron, Royal Corps of Transport (East Yorkshire)
A (HSF) Bty 103 AD Regiment, Royal Artillery (V)
5 Coy (HSF) 10th (V) Battalion, The Parachute Regiment
13 Platoon, (HSF) H Coy, 3rd Battalion Yorkshire Volunteers
(HFS) 4th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets
(HFS) 5th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets
(HFS) 6th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets
(HFS) 7th (V) Battalion, Royal Green Jackets

Edit - Ignore any references to RAS above, that's from my campaign.

[natehale1971]

okay...

looking at the Home Service Force in my campaign... that would make up the bulk of the "British Army of the Thames" who'd be running training centres and the like. Having the HSF (or 'Home Guard' as many would be calling them) being made up of disabled or aged veterans who'd be at their core. One of the ideas I had for the Home Guard was that they would be recruiting single parents who are of draft age.

Would this actually give a reason for the recall orders for the British Army of the Rhine when things get out of hand back home.

with what you've already shared with me, the growth of the British Army before the start of the Euro-Soviet War would have been into the Territorial Army, and with some new battalions of Ghurkas. But what would it take for the government to raise the cap on the the recuirtment of commonwealth nationals into the British Army from 10% to 15-20% during the years before the outbreak of the Euro-Soviet War?

Esp. with the growth of threats around the globe... and the British Armed Forces being asked by the UN to provide Peacekeepers, would this be something that would cause people to join the British Army? or kind of make them not want to join?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

okay...

looking at the Home Service Force in my campaign... that would make up the bulk of the "British Army of the Thames" who'd be running training centres and the like. Having the HSF (or 'Home Guard' as many would be calling them) being made up of disabled or aged veterans who'd be at their core. One of the ideas I had for the Home Guard was that they would be recruiting single parents who are of draft age.

Would this actually give a reason for the recall orders for the British Army of the Rhine when things get out of hand back home.

with what you've already shared with me, the growth of the British Army before the start of the Euro-Soviet War would have been into the Territorial Army, and with some new battalions of Ghurkas. But what would it take for the government to raise the cap on the the recuirtment of commonwealth nationals into the British Army from 10% to 15-20% during the years before the outbreak of the Euro-Soviet War?

Esp. with the growth of threats around the globe... and the British Armed Forces being asked by the UN to provide Peacekeepers, would this be something that would cause people to join the British Army? or kind of make them not want to join?

Bear in mind that in the UK at present with a major war going on recruitment is at a peak. It seems as if a war results in increased volunteers in the UK. IRL Army popularity started to rise from a low in the 1970s with the Falklands in 1982 and has increased ever since with each war. The TA currently has it's best ever public opinion as people now see it as no longer a separate "Dad;s Army" or drinking club but a vital part of the now integrated army. The major lowering of the Irish security threat has also resulted in a higher profile as there is less requirement to change out of uniform. It is this popularity that has fueled recruiting.

[simonmark6]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Being Welsh... :-)

Not enough troops to do it (even with the Welsh having the Gurkha Coy from Brecon - that may confuse a few characters when they meet them!).

Agreed, most people see the Welsh nation in Tw2K as being ultra-isolationist and thus fairly unlikely to launch an invasion of its own. That said, I'd expect them to have occupied a defensive line that included the Severn and the Dee (I think that's the river that runs next to Chester) as this gives them a solid barrier to refugees for the majority of the border. If they did this, they'd only have an open land pass of about 50km to defend rather than 300+.

Given that border and the reconstruction needed in South Wales, the WVNA is going to be spread very thinly and not attacking anyone in the foreseeable future.

[Rainbow Six]

Sorry, I was being a little tongue in cheek last night...I wouldn't expect the Welsh (or the Scots) to come charging over the border either...

[simonmark6]

No, it would be an interesting scenario, but unlikely. If the situation persisted for enough years for the Scots to get really organised however, I bet they'd be tempted to try for a land grab on the North of England.

[Rainbow Six]

That's been tried before! It never ends well!!!!

Seriously, I think it would take years for Scottish separatists to be in any position to be a serious threat to England and by that time I'd imagine the entire BAOR would be back in the UK and working on restoring HMG's control. I don't see the Scots being able to take on the BAOR and win, so we'd lose. Again.

With regard to Wales though, I certainly agree that there could be some WNVA troops in England for the reasons that you mentioned...in my alternative piece I placed a detachment of Welsh troops in Oswestry in Shropshire.

[simonmark6]

Oh, yes!

I'd agree entirely but it never stopped people before. I was also envisaging a time several years into the future, long after the BAOR came back. On the whole, once the BAOR return England will start to recover but the unit can only do so much at a time.

If I was an aggressive Scottish or Welsh leader that wanted to destabilize England I'd either be trying to develop or trade for cheap anti-tank weapons to distribute like sweeties to the seccesionists(sp?)in England, the more heavy kit they take out, the less left to reassert claims on the Celtic Fringe.

The most likely result though is a peaceful rejoining of the union with greater powers of self-determination for Scotland and Wales.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

If I was an aggressive Scottish or Welsh leader that wanted to destabilize England I'd either be trying to develop or trade for cheap anti-tank weapons to distribute like sweeties to the seccesionists(sp?)in England, the more heavy kit they take out, the less left to reassert claims on the Celtic Fringe.

That's a really good point which had never occurred to me before...

Originally Posted by simonmark6

The most likely result though is a peaceful rejoining of the union with greater powers of self-determination for Scotland and Wales.

Totally agree.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

No, it would be an interesting scenario, but unlikely. If the situation persisted for enough years for the Scots to get really organised however, I bet they'd be tempted to try for a land grab on the North of England.

A more crafty plan would be inviting the independent towns on the border to come over and gradually spread (Berwick on Tweed would be a prime candidate).

[simonmark6]

Might work although the deep rooted history of border clashes in the Cheviots might work against it. It would depend on what the Scottish Government had to offer, sometimes sheer bloody mindedness trumps common sense, sadly.

[Top-Break]

I would expect the Home Service Force to be organised into regional defence regiments along the same lines as the Ulster Defense Regiment.

England Defense Regiment

Wales Defense Regiment

Scotland Defense Regiment

Likewise, I would also expect to see the consolidation of various police departments into paramilitary "Constabularies" along the lines of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Royal English Costabulary

Royal Welsh Constabulary

Royal Scottish Constabulary

Just a thought.

[natehale1971]

Thank you! i'll definately be using that...

This is what i have so far for the British OOB for my campaign. Any suggestions for what battalions would go where?

British Forces Europe
-1st UK Army (British Army of the Danube): Southern Europe/Balkans
--VIII UK Corps
---12th Division
---13th Division
-2nd UK Army (British Army of the Rhine): Northern Europe
--I UK Corps
---1st Armoured Division
---3rd Mechanized Division
--II UK Corps
---2nd Infantry Division
---4th Armorured Division
-3rd UK Army (British Army of the Thames):
--III UK Corps
---HSF Division (England)
----England Defense Regiment
----Royal English Constabulary
--HSF Division (Scotland)
----Scotland Defense Regiment
----Royal Scottish Constabulary
--HSF Division (Northern Ireland)
----Ulster Defense Regiment
----Royal Ulster Constabulary
-HSF Division (Wales)
----Wales Defense Regiment
----Royal Welsh Constabulary
British Forces Americas
-6th UK Army (British Army of the Amazon): Central & South America
--VII UK Corps
---10th Infantry Division
British Forces Africa
-5th UK Army (British Army of the Nile): Africa
--VI UK Corps
---8th Armoured Division
---7th Infantry Division
British Forces Far East
-7th UK Army (British Army of the Pearl): Asia & the Pacific Rim
--V UK Corps
---9th Infantry Division
British Forces Near East
-8th UK Army (British Army of the Euphrates): The Middle East
--IV UK Corps
---11th Armoured Division 'The Black Bull'
---6th Infantry Division
British Forces Gibraltar
British Forces Hong Kong
British Forces Brunei
British Forces Cyprus
-Sovereign Base Area Akrotiri
-Sovereign Base Area Dhekelia
British Forces Falkland Islands
British Forces Caribbean

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

This is what i have so far for the British OOB for my campaign. Any suggestions for what battalions would go where?

The British Army currently operates a system called "Arms -Plot" under which Battalions constantly move around between different postings after a set period of time (usually two - three years, but can be shorter or longer), so in theory you can more or less have any Battalion assigned anywhere you please. I think pretty much the only requirement would probably be to have several Guards battalions based in London.

For example, 1st Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusilers (to pick a random Battalion) could spend three years in Germany as armoured infantry then redploy to Cyprus for two years in a light infantry role then go to Northern Ireland, etc, etc.

Armoured and Artillery Regiments also rotate, albeit to a lesser extent as there were fewer places they were deployed to.

(It should be noted that Arms-Plot has been deemed to be an inefficient process, so it is in the process of being phased out).

[RN7]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations? not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself?

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states?

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service?

Until recently low unemployment in Britain led to the British armed forces, and the army in particular, having difficulty in meeting its recruitment targets. The current economic problems that the UK and the rest of the western world is having has probably made a career in the British Army a more attractive offer for many young Britons.

As recently as 2008 volunteers from the Commonwealth accounted for nearly 7% of the British Army's manpower, with soldiers from 42 different countries represented in the Army. The Gurkhas are the largest source, but there are also many volunteers from Fiji, Jamaica and some African countries. There are also recruits from developed Commonwealth countries such as Australia, Canada, NZ and South Africa, especially in the special forces community. The Gibraltar Regiment also recruits from the local population, and there are still many Irish recruits from south of the border in the British Army's Irish units and throughout the British Army and the other services.

[natehale1971]

Yeah. whenever unemployment rates rises... you see the youth joining the armed forces because it's the only open 'starting jobs' that they think they will be able to find. While there is some evidence of that... it's at times to just be the 'easiest' road that they would see.

The truth of the matter is that they can create their own business if they are enterprising enough... i've seen it first hand. My dad went from doing six different part time jobs (and running himself into the ground) to being a General Contractor who built an amazing house on the side of a mountain that could survive pretty much anything that happened.

Using a rise in unemployment rates can definately be tied into the timeline i'm working on... Even with the UK producing weapons and equipment for many of the Commonwealth nations around the globe, unemployment outside of the defense and related industres could easily push men and women into the armed forces.