OT Things are getting hairy in the Middle East

[Heffe3737]

Oh of course. I simply meant that the holes in the tanks appear to be on the western side, not that the drones came in from the west or anything. I would note that the oil fields that were also attacked were southwest of the refinery, but that's what, 150km away? Without more information on the drones used, who knows where they were likely being operated from (or if they were in fact drones at all, has that even been confirmed yet?).

In any case, it's concerning because it seems the cold war between the Kingdom and Iran is heating up. To clarify, I'm not saying that Iran caused the attack, but despite denying it they are strongly suspected to support the Houthis, and Iran and the Kingdom have long been known to take proxy action against one another.

[Olefin]

Pompeo is saying its an Iranian attack and an act of war. So looks like we may get to see some nice F-14 versus F-15 dogfights over the Gulf soon and finally get to settle who is the better dogfighter

[Legbreaker]

Worth a look I think...
https://bombardsbodylanguage.com/201...fab128d028b1eb

[JHart]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Pompeo is saying its an Iranian attack and an act of war. So looks like we may get to see some nice F-14 versus F-15 dogfights over the Gulf soon and finally get to settle who is the better dogfighter

An F-15 has never been lost in air to air combat. Unfortunately the Tomcat can't say the same.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Pompeo is saying its an Iranian attack and an act of war. So looks like we may get to see some nice F-14 versus F-15 dogfights over the Gulf soon and finally get to settle who is the better dogfighter

The last thing the U.S.A. needs right now is to get directly involved in yet another proxy war in the Middle East.

American defense contractors must be creaming their jockeys right now, but enough is enough. We've provided the Saudis with billions of dollars worth of subsidized, high tech American-made weaponry. Let them fight their own battles.

-

[Olefin]

Raellus - not talking about American planes - the Saudis fly the F-15 and the F-15E as wel.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Hey Olefin, I also think the question is interesting, F-14 or F-15?
However I don't think it would be a fair test of the aircraft because I think in this case, it will come down to who has the better pilots & doctrine, the Saudis or the Iranians.

[Raellus]

Nothing the Saudis have done militarily in the last three decades has impressed me much. They can't defeat rebels in the region's poorest country and they couldn't stop said from temporarily knocking out half of the world's oil production.

The Iranians, on the other hand, have been punking the Saudis at every turn and, although it's been a while, the Iranians have operational experience at air warfare. I'm not saying predicting an Iranian victory, but I think that they'd give the vastly better equipped Saudis a run for their [oil] money in any aerial clash over the Gulf, perhaps even getting the better of them.

[Heffe3737]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Nothing the Saudis have done militarily in the last three decades has impressed me much. They can't defeat rebels in the region's poorest country and they couldn't stop said from temporarily knocking out half of the world's oil production.

The Iranians, on the other hand, have been punking the Saudis at every turn and, although it's been a while, the Iranians have operational experience at air warfare. I'm not saying predicting an Iranian victory, but I think that they'd give the vastly better equipped Saudis a run for their [oil] money in any aerial clash over the Gulf, perhaps even getting the better of them.

Agreed on all points. MBS might be the great millenial hope of the Saudis at the moment, but his foreign policy decisions have left quite a bit to be desired. And Soleimani has shown that he's more than capable on the Iranian side. Hopefully it doesn't end up escalating, but the next couple of years should prove interesting (meant in the apocryphal Chinese curse context of "interesting").

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm pretty much of the same opinion as you Raellus, I haven't seen anything from the Saudi's that leads me to believe they'll be the victors. I don't know what it's like now but in the past they often hired foreigners to serve as officers or technical personnel apparently because they couldn't get enough of their own people to join the military or those that did, didn't have the education needed for the roles.

When you see the Saudis wasting their Abrams MBTs because they didn't bother to follow common sense let alone good doctrine and deployed them without any infantry support, you start to question just how good (i.e. bad) the Saudi military is, particularly their leadership and doctrine.
When you hear stories of the Saudi's paying Sudanese families to send their children to fight against the Houthis, you start to question just who can lay claim to any moral highground in any conflict involving Saudi Arabia and their neighbours.

As for the Iranians, as you mentioned, they've been engaged in conflicts for several decades. They have combat experience and it seems a strong national imperative to have a strong & capable military (compared to their neighbours).
As I originally said, I don't think any Saudi F-15 versus Iranian F-14 would be a good test of which aircraft is better. I tend to think the Iranians actually have the better pilots and pilot experience is going to be worth much more than the machine they're flying in this example.

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Pompeo is saying its an Iranian attack and an act of war. So looks like we may get to see some nice F-14 versus F-15 dogfights over the Gulf soon and finally get to settle who is the better dogfighter

Why not some F-22s hunting F-14s.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by lordroel

Why not some F-22s hunting F-14s.

Some F-22s hunting ancient F-14As.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Some F-22s hunting ancient F-14As.

Except according the September 2018 issue of Air International pages 58–59
the number of combat ready Tomcats in Iran was still low (seven in 2008) and the Washington Post reported on 26 January 2012 that Iranian F-14 fighter jet had crashed in country's south, and both pilot and co-pilot killed. So I would call the use of F-14 by Iran questionable

In July 2007, the remaining American F-14s were shredded to ensure that any parts could not be acquired by Iran

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Except according the September 2018 issue of Air International pages 58–59
the number of combat ready Tomcats in Iran was still low (seven in 2008) and the Washington Post reported on 26 January 2012 that Iranian F-14 fighter jet had crashed in country's south, and both pilot and co-pilot killed. So I would call the use of F-14 by Iran questionable

In July 2007, the remaining American F-14s were shredded to ensure that any parts could not be acquired by Iran

As of 2018 the Iranian Air Force had 43 F-14's in service, and possibly more.

After the Iranian Revolution Iran’s ability to acquire parts for the F-14 was limited. While Iran developed the manufacturing facilities to service the simpler F-5E and kept the F-4E Phantom flying through a combination of reverse engineering and acquiring parts on the black market, this was not an option for the more complex F-14. A severe shortage in AIM-54missiles after the Iran-Iraq War further limited the F-14's usefulness in Iranian hands, and only a fraction of the fleet remained operational for several decades.

However new technologies including 3D printing has allowed Iran to more effectively reverse engineer parts the F-14 and AIM-54 missile. Most of Iran's F-14's having seen well under a decade of service, some under five years, before a lack of parts placed them in storage, these airframes are essentially brand new and with the supply of new parts can be fielded in considerable numbers. Iran's F-14 fleet has reportedly received over 250 modifications and upgrades, including new radars, cockpit displays, electronic warfare suites and other avionics. When the almost new airframes are properly modernised, likely with Russian or Chinese assistance the result will most likely be the most capable fighter in the Middle East.

Also the Iranian Fakour-90 AAM bears a strong resemblance to the AIM-54 Phoenix.

In the late 1980's Iran allegedly sent the AIM-54 and an entire F-14 fighter to the Soviet Union for study in exchange for assistance in developing such a missile. The Soviets operated the similar R-33 AAM missile with an original range of 120km. This was gradually enhanced to a 300km range and the Soviets/Russians were well placed to aid Iran in developing an indigenous variant of the AIM-54 as relations between the two countries improved and a strong defence partnership developed from the late 1980s.

The Fakour-90 not only matches the capabilities of the AIM-54 but improves on them. Iran puts its range at 300km with Western sources estimating a range of around 220km, compared to the original AIM-54's 180km range. The Fakour-90 also retains a guidance system capable of providing a radar lock independently of the launch aircraft’s own radar. This capability is lacked by modern Western combat aircraft and most Russian ones, which makes Iranian F-14's potentially highly lethal in BVR. Travelling at over Mach 5 and striking with the same degree of precision if not higher than the AIM-54 did, the missile can target enemy fighters well beyond their retaliation range. The Fakour-90 has at least three times the range of American AIM-120B which have a range of 75km, and at least twice the range of the more advanced AIM-120C. The Fakour-90 is also likely to have inherited the Phoenix's hypersonic speed, making it faster and longer ranged than the AIM-120 deployed by Saudi and Israeli F-15s. In the event of a regional war with Saudi Arabia the Iranian F-14's can potentially shoot down Saudi fighters without leaving Iranian airspace, and if the Iranian F-14's cross the Iraqi border they can even target aircraft over Israel.

[RN7]

The tension in the Middle East is now going off on an arc all of its own.

Since Trump pulled US forces from Syria the Turkish invasion of Northern Syria is underway with widespread attacks on the pro-American Kurds. There is also a real danger that ISIS prisoners in jails guarded by the Kurds could be set free, in fact some have already escaped.

Russia has moved its forces into some of the areas evacuated by US forces and the Russian Army is now are acting as a buffer or peacekeeper between Turkish and Syrian forces.

Turkey is member of NATO and is invading another country were American and Russian military forces are based. The Turks even launched an artillery barrage at some US forces still in Syria!

The most worrying aspect of all this is the fact that 50 B61 nuclear bombs stored at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey are now effectively hostages of the whims of the Turkish President. Turkey is also talking about developing its own nuclear forces.

........And Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel are not even directly involved.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Heffe3737

Oh of course. I simply meant that the holes in the tanks appear to be on the western side, not that the drones came in from the west or anything. I would note that the oil fields that were also attacked were southwest of the refinery, but that's what, 150km away? Without more information on the drones used, who knows where they were likely being operated from (or if they were in fact drones at all, has that even been confirmed yet?).

In any case, it's concerning because it seems the cold war between the Kingdom and Iran is heating up. To clarify, I'm not saying that Iran caused the attack, but despite denying it they are strongly suspected to support the Houthis, and Iran and the Kingdom have long been known to take proxy action against one another.

I definitely think that Iran had at least something to do with it. The Houthis have proven to be pretty resourceful, but I haven't seen anything indicating that they are capable of carrying out an attack this complex, this precise, completely on their own. At the very least, they surely had substantial material assistance from the Iranians (i.e. Iran provided the attack drones). Even if the Houthis themselves launched the drones, I reckon that at least a few Iranian "advisers" were on hand to "observe" the operation (wink-wink).