Aircraft/Armor Surplus Storage

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Since Mr. Littlefield did not buy munitions, machinery to manufacture munitions, or even chemicals to produce even propellants, is proof enough to me that he never intended to in the first place. Let alone the federal laws that would have to be overcome.

I don't like hand wave things just to hand wave them. People I have played with want plausible excuses for things not their intelligence insulted. Billionaires that buy fantastic weapons and never have bureaucratic government problems is a movie called Iron Man.

It is reasonable and plausible in the T2K timelines that a hobbyist like Littlefield would have Korean war and earlier vehicles and equipment. Given the radical changes in the timeline that differ from our own; I find it implausible that operational 60s and later equipment would have gone to a collector.

sorry but an old M60A2 Starship and a Conqueror tank are hardly fantastic weapons - and you can own live shells in this country for a license fee that is very affordable - and for the right price you can get anything in this country -

and if you use the V2 timeline then he could have gotten everything he had basically - even the original timeline is totally plausible for 90% of his collection - and the T2013 timeline means he got it all

and either way the man had exactly what you need to maintain and rebuild tanks and armored vehicles including a very loyal and dedicated staff

but again either way its how you approach the game versus how I approach it - and everyone's campaign is different in how non-canon is handled

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

sorry but an old M60A2 Starship and a Conqueror tank are hardly fantastic weapons - and you can own live shells in this country for a license fee that is very affordable - and for the right price you can get anything in this country -

That M60A2 would have been recycled into an M60A1 or sold to Israel that would have done the same. Jordan would have liked to have the Conqueror, South Africa, even Israel again. Israel would have converted the conqueror to one of the turretless counter IED engineer vehicles that sweep between one kibbutz and the next.

Old and obsolete to the 1st world powers like NATO is still adequate to those not so advanced. In any of these timelines without a collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact to economic difficulties means a continuance and escalation of brushfire wars in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and if you use the V2 timeline then he could have gotten everything he had basically - even the original timeline is totally plausible for 90% of his collection - and the T2013 timeline means he got it all

So your saying all these smaller 3rd world nations like those in south America still using M24s, M41s, and M48s would not have been snapping any of these things up for spares if nothing else.
I don’t think so.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and either way the man had exactly what you need to maintain and rebuild tanks and armored vehicles including a very loyal and dedicated staff

Maintaining museum quality sure….. I think he could have a reasonable collection of WW2 and Korean era equipment. The items from the 60s forward would be in the hands of 3rd world countries in local conflicts fueled by money from either NATO or the Warsaw Pact…… Afghanistan, Angola, Eritrea, Sinai, Cyprus, Vietnam, Laos, Chad, Libya, Pakistan, India, as examples.

Originally Posted by Olefin

but again either way its how you approach the game versus how I approach it - and everyone's campaign is different in how non-canon is handled

I don’t like to insult my players with far fetched per case scenarios. If bad guy needs to be stronger to counter a powerful PC team or to give the PC a target worthy of their efforts, then a reasonable and plausible means for a tank or APC to be there can be better devised than because billionaires like tanks.

Millionaires and billionaires didn’t get that way spending money. Sure Mr. Littlefields collection was worth a lot, and gained in value as other vehicles were scrapped. What doesn’t give it value is live ammunition at $200 per shell above the base cost, plus the outrageous monthly insurance.
Then ammunition doesn’t sit infinitely, propellants and explosives naturally decay. Is he going to shoot 10% to 50% per year from every vehicle to rotate stock? Not a chance. The wear and tear on the vehicles alone would be unacceptable.

Ordnance isn’t built or maintained by mechanics no matter how clever they are. Fuses, even of the impact type, have little to nothing at all incommon with anything on the tank, but another fuse.
Any Twilight timeline is a violent place and I doubt anything would sit around as surplus to be collected by hobbyists.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt - the timeline isnt that much more violent than our current timeline up until the start of the Soviet Chinese war - there would still be surplus equipment to be had by those who had enough money

and there is always surplus equipment to be had for the serious collector who has enough money and he was both

keep in mind that many third world nations don't operate much in the way of tanks - like Mexico for instance

and many of the vehicles he had he rebuilt from the ground up - these werent pristine vehicles that drove up ready to fire - these were lovingly rebuilt by him over the years - if you are a Third World nation you are going to want to buy fully operational tanks and armored vehicles - not ones that need a year in a rebuild shop to bring them back up to spec while you search spare parts collections and use old drawings to make parts one at a time

he didnt buy this tanks right off the lot - that Panzer IV that he had looked literally like a piece of crap when he got it - and it took years to fix it -

Frankly if you dont like the Collection then dont use it in your campaign -heck unless you are playing in CA or AZ it would never even come into play

And while you keep talking about how crappy it would be to have a WWII or Korean era tank in a fight, the Croats, Serbs and Bosnians used a bunch of old WWII tanks in the fight in Yugoslavia in the mid 90's - and they worked quite well

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt - the timeline isnt that much more violent than our current timeline up until the start of the Soviet Chinese war - there would still be surplus equipment to be had by those who had enough money

and there is always surplus equipment to be had for the serious collector who has enough money and he was both

keep in mind that many third world nations don't operate much in the way of tanks - like Mexico for instance

and many of the vehicles he had he rebuilt from the ground up - these werent pristine vehicles that drove up ready to fire - these were lovingly rebuilt by him over the years - if you are a Third World nation you are going to want to buy fully operational tanks and armored vehicles - not ones that need a year in a rebuild shop to bring them back up to spec while you search spare parts collections and use old drawings to make parts one at a time

he didnt buy this tanks right off the lot - that Panzer IV that he had looked literally like a piece of crap when he got it - and it took years to fix it -

Frankly if you dont like the Collection then dont use it in your campaign -heck unless you are playing in CA or AZ it would never even come into play

And while you keep talking about how crappy it would be to have a WWII or Korean era tank in a fight, the Croats, Serbs and Bosnians used a bunch of old WWII tanks in the fight in Yugoslavia in the mid 90's - and they worked quite well

Still seen nothing here to convince me otherwise. When V1 doesn't support your argument, you say V2. When V2 doesn't you say V3.

When the ammunition comes up you say he is a millionaire, just buying munitions because he can.

You haven't convinced me, because you keep moving the goal posts.

This is relevant to anywhere in the U.S., because a great many collections exist both private and public. That is really my interest in this thread. There has to be a plausible excuse for using the resources to get them going and operational. Just because it is a tank, doesn't mean anyone is going to be stupid enough to go into battle in it. If M203 and BG-15s can kill them from 150 to 300 meters out, these relics won't even be safe with a infantry unit to screen them. Then they are in rendered useless in an attack, only to be marginally effective in a defense. Let alone that with high explosives most would be hampered severely with the poor penetration capabilities of hardened steel shot for the main armament.

Pz IIs and M3 would get killed just by a marauder with an M203.

It is barbarically negligent to kill soldiers by sending them into battle in some of these things.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

You know you say "Oh he'd only have WWII stuff and no guns..."

Consider this: even taking that into consideration, his "garage" is a treasure trove of a machine shop. It'd be a fine prize for any faction to take, be it civgov, milgov, New America, MexiCubanSoviet invaders, whatever. He's got tooling, lifts, lathes, etc. up there to keep an armored brigade repaired and running.

Now regarding the collection itself? Fine, He's only got up to Korean War era stuff, and no ammo. Taking it as fact (because it is a fact) that he's got the machine shop to do so, what's stopping him from pulling turrets off of tanks and hey, presto, armored prime movers? Attaching dozer blades and other things, and now you've got armored engineering vehicles, vital to combat engineer work and reconstruction? How about turning those old tanks into personnel carriers? Mortar carriers? A Sherman could shrug off MG42 rounds, why not RPK slugs? Same for his various half-tracks.

So you consider his 30-40 vehicles that he "would have" during T2k's timeline, we'll be really conservative and say 20 can be made operational, and hey presto that's 20 personnel carriers or prime movers, now suddenly you can put a brigade strength infantry unit on tracks versus walking everywhere, or riding in relatively thin-skinned vehicles.

[Olefin]

Sgt - first off I am not moving the goalposts

Timelines

V1 - he still gets almost every tank and vehicle he had that was made pre-1970 that was in his collection and even some of the Soviet Stuff - Egypt still becomes a NATO ally and gets rid of its Soviet stuff, Israel still captures a bunch in the various wars they had

V2 - he gets the same plus even some Soviet stuff he could have obtained from the former East Germans and the Yugoslav remnants

2013 - he gets his whole collection including the Scud missile

no one is moving the goalposts - the posts move because of the events in the timeline change

as for munitions - hmm lets see MilGov decides to make use of his collection - well there is where the munitions come from as one possibility - another is that a machine shop (which per canon are capable of turning out mortar shells and the like) make a small amount of solid shot shells for the vehicles

or he obtains munitions the old fashioned way - he buys them pre-war - maybe only enough to give one basic ammo load or less for the vehicles with live barrels - and he had lots of storage room to keep them in

and for our info most of the tanks and artillery pieces didnt have live barrels - so the Stuarts and PzkII and Pzk IV you seem to obsess about and the Lee and the British WWII tanks arent going anywhere as tanks - but they sure could be modified to be turned into gun platforms for other weapons for the US Army or turned into tracked gun vehicles instead of wheeled ones -

and anyone who uses a M203 against the tanks that he did have with live barrels is going to end up dead

you might want to actually research his collection like I did and find out what worked and what didnt - and what only needed a .50 to be fully operational like most of his APC's

and per canon - by 2000 anything with a gun on it and tracks was being used as tank in the US by the various groups fighting

thats pretty clear that if it had a turret, a gun and could move they used it

plus keep in mind that the main marauder threat is a bunch of guys armed with shotguns, civilian rifles and if they were really lucky some M-16's they might have looted out of a National Guard armory - none of which have a hope in heck of hurting anyone in a tank

and again - per canon - from the Texas module - even the Mexican Army by 2000 was mostly foot infantry with rifles - you would be lucky if a whole unit had one or two anti-tank weapons of any sort with them -

this isnt charging Soviet Division Cuba with a bunch of original production Shermans and Stuarts

this is taking on marauders and Mexican infantry who the only thing they can do against a tank is hope they get close enough to use a Molotov on it or maybe manage to blow a tread off with dynamite

and frankly any commander who had working tanks and APC's and artillery pieces sitting right there and didnt use them when he had no tanks of any sort and no armored vehicles in his unit is not one whose men will stay with him long

[kato13]

Given the penchant the game designers had putting odd equipment in odd places, I think the Littlefield collection fits nicely. They have British and German units stay in Canada. They have an Alaskan Invasion by the Soviets. They have a US division get "lost" by 800 kilometers.

When I played I tried to give the 49th some color by adding 24 DUKW transports which were "requisitioned" when one of their brigades was near the Wisconsin Dells (where they are used for recreational touring).

Personally I would give Littlefield a little more eccentric personality (and more money and power). Maybe add a little John DuPont and Howard Hughes. Make the collection an obsession that leads to grey and black market deals.

Once you enter that world you find corrupt quartermasters, Insurgents who capture a single vehicle (and have no support for it), a dictator's cousin looking for a little cash, plus anything that would be above board.

You have to make Littlefield crazy to have the collection armed before TDM, but if you throw in a little of DuPont's or Hughes paranoia it might work. Personally I would not have the collection armed until "Wojo" type plants spring up.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I should also point out the matter of vehicles that 40mm rounds can take out - the M1 (of any stripe) is still vulnerable in almost all arcs to RPG-7 fire. When they were taken out with them in OIF the Army (and Marines) didn't pull them off the line and mothball them.

[Olefin]

I agree with you Kato - and Raketenjagdpanzer has a big point too - just that shop of his, which he would have had no matter what the timeline, would have been invaluable

just imagine - its 2000 and you have a fully manned (his techs weree as dedicated as he was after all) and operational tank repair depot that can take a tank that is basically a pile of junk and make it operational again

and there sits MilGov units with all kinds of tanks and armored vehicles with issues that need to be fixed - its a marriage made in heaven

and I could easily see him obtaining stuff once the war started with various bribes if not beforhand - especially if he saw how the world was getting pre-TDM and figured it might be a damn good idea to have some munitions to arm his collection

[ArmySGT.]

Sorry, skipped over your post replying to others so here goes.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

You know you say "Oh he'd only have WWII stuff and no guns..."

I do. For two reasons, first because when the Soviet Union collapsed in our real world timeline of 09 November 1989 the little wars happening all over the world especially in Africa, South America, and South East Asia drastically reduced in size and intensity. Those wars were fueled by money and weapons from mostly NATO (primarily the U.S., I admit that) and the USSR mostly to preserve or limit the other factions influence in the area.
With a strong USSR and Warsaw Pact still in existence those wars never stop or lower their intensity. The Pact allies like Cuba, North Korea, Angola, Venezuela don’t really decline or stop their military misadventures regionally or globally. For this reason I assert there really isn’t much in the way of military surplus vehicles or artillery because some place, at some time, somebody is using this stuff trying to kill someone else. What would not be acceptable first line equipment in Europe for the coming WW3 in mostly effective somewhere that either side isn’t using that sophisticated equipment or fighting Kursk level pitched battles.
I keep iterating that the surplus will be WW2 and Korea as though they are easy to operate and could be effective in some situations these are now vulnerable to the least effective of anti armor weapons like the 40mm grenade. That makes spending money and diverting resources to these as fighting vehicles decidedly less worthwhile.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Consider this: even taking that into consideration, his "garage" is a treasure trove of a machine shop. It'd be a fine prize for any faction to take, be it civgov, milgov, New America, MexiCubanSoviet invaders, whatever. He's got tooling, lifts, lathes, etc. up there to keep an armored brigade repaired and running.

It isn’t unique. Anywhere that has a machine shop for repair of heavy construction equipment has the multi ton hoists, lathes, mills, and the large toolsets to work on these things. Literally, every county, multiple in every state everywhere there is a Department of Transportation. Additionally, any dealership that sells heavy construction equipment such as Caterpillar, Case, or John Deere has a repair bay with all the same stuff. The only thing unique about Mr. Littlefield’s shop is some of the unique expertise and the manuals available. I can think of four or five places in Pueblo down there that would all escape the nuclear exchange and would only need electricity.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Now regarding the collection itself? Fine, He's only got up to Korean War era stuff, and no ammo. Taking it as fact (because it is a fact) that he's got the machine shop to do so, what's stopping him from pulling turrets off of tanks and hey, presto, armored prime movers?

Prime movers are used to tow artillery in poor terrain where there is a risk of counter battery fire or bombing by tactical aircraft. Depends on if there is artillery to be towed to start with, then if saddling a unit with a cantankerous beast of a machine that has no spare parts is worth the effort.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Attaching dozer blades and other things, and now you've got armored engineering vehicles, vital to combat engineer work and reconstruction? How about turning those old tanks into personnel carriers? Mortar carriers? A Sherman could shrug off MG42 rounds, why not RPK slugs? Same for his various half-tracks.

There is a big difference between combat engineering and reconstruction. Combat engineering vehicles are either put up obstacles to slow, channel or stop an enemy advance or trying to tear down the other guy’s defenses. This is all done while being fired upon as both sides are in contact. Only the most heavily armored are expected to survive this like a M728. Even then, a mass effort is in place just for that one combat engineering vehicle. Infantry are screening to counter enemy infantry, the smoke unit is pumping out hectares of smoke, artillery is firing at known enemy concentration and enemy held road junctions, tacair and air superiority is overhead. The enemy is going to pour artillery onto that combat engineering vehicle just to prevent a breakthrough.
As to conversions, mortar carriers, sure those only need to be armored enough to survive counter battery fire up to 152mm or 155mm detonating at 50 meters. Those don’t get close enough to the infantry battle line to be threatened by AT weapons. As to personnel carriers, only in the sense as the battle taxi like an M113; protecting the infantry from small arms and shrapnel and bring them within 500 to 1000 meters of the objective while attempting to support the infantry dismounted movement with long range heavy machinegun fire. Expect to lose them though. When the enemy is in range so are you. Some of these would be vulnerable to 14.5 KPV and certainly 23mm ZPUs in a ground role, those weapons outranging the M2HB.

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

So you consider his 30-40 vehicles that he "would have" during T2k's timeline, we'll be really conservative and say 20 can be made operational, and hey presto that's 20 personnel carriers or prime movers, now suddenly you can put a brigade strength infantry unit on tracks versus walking everywhere, or riding in relatively thin-skinned vehicles.

No, you don’t have anywhere near a Brigade strength and only close to the strength of ONE mechanized infantry company all the while diverting resources that could have better supplied a Brigade strength unit with fuel, ammunition, and support weapons.

Mr. Littlefield’s collection can best serve in a supporting role with guard or militia units guarding seaports, airports, water purification plants etc. where they would not be in direct battle with troops or modern munitions and the activity wouldn’t be causing breakdowns daily.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Army Sgt., if we started poking holes in t2k's realism issues by the end of the day we'd have an aperture grille, not a solid peace.

Olefin's suggesting, and I'm suggesting "This could be a neat thing". Nobody's going to drive to your house and scribble in "...AND THE JACQUES LITTLEFIELD COLLECTION!" in your copy of Howling Wilderness.

I used to be like you, I'd get worked up when someone said lifting demi-human level limits from AD&D was a good idea. But here's the thing: to all discussions about RPGs, attach "...at my table." whether you're arguing for or against. And then I quit because writing 40000 words over a course of weeks in a forum about xyz issue is a waste of time and effort. You're not going to change. I'm not going to change.

There's plenty of logical reasons to include Littlefield's collection in a consideration of arms and armor in the US, post Exchange. There's plenty of reasons not to. At the end of the day do it or don't do it. The whole goddamn game is rife with plot and believability holes.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Army Sgt., if we started poking holes in t2k's realism issues by the end of the day we'd have an aperture grille, not a solid peace.

Olefin's suggesting, and I'm suggesting "This could be a neat thing". Nobody's going to drive to your house and scribble in "...AND THE JACQUES LITTLEFIELD COLLECTION!" in your copy of Howling Wilderness.

I used to be like you, I'd get worked up when someone said lifting demi-human level limits from AD&D was a good idea. But here's the thing: to all discussions about RPGs, attach "...at my table." whether you're arguing for or against. And then I quit because writing 40000 words over a course of weeks in a forum about xyz issue is a waste of time and effort. You're not going to change. I'm not going to change.

There's plenty of logical reasons to include Littlefield's collection in a consideration of arms and armor in the US, post Exchange. There's plenty of reasons not to. At the end of the day do it or don't do it. The whole goddamn game is rife with plot and believability holes.

I am just going to stick to the topic. I am not upset that someone doesn't agree with me.

I don't care if you want Panzers or Shermans in your T2k game because you think these are sexy. What I like about T2k and other post apocalyptic games is the realism..... I tired of AD&D and magic solving everything long, long ago.

So if you have one, then I demand a plausible and logical reason. To just say "Because" is an insult to the adults sitting at the table.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

*** Thread Necromancy ***


This seemed like the best place to mention this...
Just been reading about preserved military vehicles in the former Soviet Union. A large number of WW2 era vehicles were turned into monuments in the 1940s & 50s, typically consisting of a tank or assault gun mounted on some large plinth.
What was interesting from a T2k perspective was that the method of turning these vehicles into monuments was actually rather simplistic.

The plinth would be constructed, then an earthen ramp was made behind the plinth and the vehicle (in the vast majority of cases a T-34-85) was driven up the ramp and parked on the plinth. The batteries were disconnected and all hatches were spot welded closed but aside from the removal of ammunition, nothing else of significance was done to the vehicles.
The Soviet and then the Russian government also kept a stock of 20 working T-34-85 and 20 working Su-100 vehicles for use in Moscow parades however over time the number of operational vehicles has dropped down so that by 2018, they only had approximately 3 working T-34-85's (one leading the parade and the others as spares) and a similarly low number of Su-100's.

But in the last 20 or so years, a number of T-34-85's have been making appearances in local parades across Russia and Ukraine. These particular T-34's have been recovered from the plinths they were mounted on and restored to running order. In one particular case, the recovery team did little more than change the batteries & flush the fuel lines and the old tank started up on the first try.

Now I'm not saying that Eastern European armies, militias, bandit groups, town defence units etc. etc. are going to have hundreds of recovered and restored T-34's at their disposal, it's unlikely to even be dozens of vehicles. However the way the Soviet Union made those tanks into monuments does make restoring them a hell of a lot easier than what happens in the West. Although the vast majority of such WW2 monuments featured the T-34-85, the Soviets did "preserve" other vehicles in the same manner. Again, it's not going to let some unit equip dozens of old tanks but it does make the notion of equipping a unit with one or two older Soviet amoured vehicles easier to achieve.

All in all, with that information it's easier to justify why some group or other has a pair of T-34's on strength (or one or two other Soviet armoured vehicles) or even, if the PCs find out such info, why the PC group might end up with some of those vehicles.

[Olefin]

Its amazing how much WWII equipment the Soviets kept around - its one reason their WWII films were more accurate as to equipment versus ours (think the tanks that were used in Patton as to what I am talking about) - when Enemy at the Gates was made they used a lot of old WWII equipment for the movie that they got from Russian sources that was still in perfect working order

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

*** Thread Necromancy ***


This seemed like the best place to mention this...
Just been reading about preserved military vehicles in the former Soviet Union. A large number of WW2 era vehicles were turned into monuments in the 1940s & 50s, typically consisting of a tank or assault gun mounted on some large plinth.
What was interesting from a T2k perspective was that the method of turning these vehicles into monuments was actually rather simplistic.

The plinth would be constructed, then an earthen ramp was made behind the plinth and the vehicle (in the vast majority of cases a T-34-85) was driven up the ramp and parked on the plinth. The batteries were disconnected and all hatches were spot welded closed but aside from the removal of ammunition, nothing else of significance was done to the vehicles.
The Soviet and then the Russian government also kept a stock of 20 working T-34-85 and 20 working Su-100 vehicles for use in Moscow parades however over time the number of operational vehicles has dropped down so that by 2018, they only had approximately 3 working T-34-85's (one leading the parade and the others as spares) and a similarly low number of Su-100's.

But in the last 20 or so years, a number of T-34-85's have been making appearances in local parades across Russia and Ukraine. These particular T-34's have been recovered from the plinths they were mounted on and restored to running order. In one particular case, the recovery team did little more than change the batteries & flush the fuel lines and the old tank started up on the first try.

Now I'm not saying that Eastern European armies, militias, bandit groups, town defence units etc. etc. are going to have hundreds of recovered and restored T-34's at their disposal, it's unlikely to even be dozens of vehicles. However the way the Soviet Union made those tanks into monuments does make restoring them a hell of a lot easier than what happens in the West. Although the vast majority of such WW2 monuments featured the T-34-85, the Soviets did "preserve" other vehicles in the same manner. Again, it's not going to let some unit equip dozens of old tanks but it does make the notion of equipping a unit with one or two older Soviet amoured vehicles easier to achieve.

All in all, with that information it's easier to justify why some group or other has a pair of T-34's on strength (or one or two other Soviet armoured vehicles) or even, if the PCs find out such info, why the PC group might end up with some of those vehicles.

A good source for relics is Surviving Panzers, which tries to keep track of the surviving armored vehicles from both World Wars. There look to be a lot of plinth-mounted IS-3 and IS-3M heavy tanks.