Lords and Manors in T2K

[kalos72]

While trying to figure out how to feed an army, my guys came up with something like an old school Lord and Manor thing. Anyone else have anything like this worked out in writing that can share?

TMP Manors

1 square mile =640 acres
Roughly 640 acres per manor – 40 acres goes to Lord - Barons Tithe of 10% = 540 acres to TMP
Lord will run each manor - request needed materials/manpower to Baron – patrol his manor – ship products to the Baron as needed.
Baron will run roughly 10 Lords – responsible for supplying the Lords with needed goods/manpower – takes 10% of products for tithe – tithe is to support himself and staff – manpower/assistance requests sent to TMP HQ.

Baron is responsible for the civilian running of the farms/manors
Provost is responsible for policing the Baron – ensuring he is acting in the TMP’s best interest and follows said laws and contracts.


Side question: As gasoline and diesel get more and more rare, shouldn't prices go up? Most prices I see in published works are like $48 per gallon...

[kalos72]

I guess I need to add something here...

The idea would be to offer the "Manor" to a family or small group of people. They run the farm, supply me with food and they get to live on their own, in their own house with a guaranteed source of food/water/shelter.

I supply farming training, farming equipment and supplies as well as protection.

I am thinking along the lines of a feudal style approach.

Anyone else take this style and maybe add their own twists?

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I guess I need to add something here...

The idea would be to offer the "Manor" to a family or small group of people. They run the farm, supply me with food and they get to live on their own, in their own house with a guaranteed source of food/water/shelter.

I supply farming training, farming equipment and supplies as well as protection.

I am thinking along the lines of a feudal style approach.

Anyone else take this style and maybe add their own twists?

The project I’ve been working on instead of my math homework is creeping in this direction. A warlord calling himself the Shogun has established a tributary relationship with Nevada and portions of the surrounding states. He taxes the locals for food, fuel, and manufactured goods. He maintains secret police in the larger communities and networks of informants everywhere. In return, the Shogun’s motorized army runs down marauders in and around his area of taxation.

The dynamic is unstable, though. The economy of the surviving Nevadans has been geared towards maintaining the Shogun’s army. The force consumes huge amounts of fuel, principally produced from alfalfa, as it rolls across the Silver State and into western Arizona, northeastern California, southeastern Oregon, and southwestern Idaho. Thus far, the Shogun has been successful at using his motorized force and his secret police to keep the locals under control. However, in order to improve the economy of his realm further, he is going to have to promote trade and a certain freedom of movement. Freer trade and movement of people within the Shogunate will tend to foment rebellion. Threat of massive retaliation has kept the surviving Nevadans (about 15% of the pre-war population) from murdering the Shogun’s secret police or rising up. If the Shogun’s force should lose a big battle, the larger communities might decide it is worth the risk of throwing off the Shogun’s yoke. As it is, virtually the entire surplus of the Nevadan economy is going into feeding, fueling, and equipping the roughly 1100 combatants and 3000 direct support personnel of the Shogun’s rolling army, plus his secret police and base operations people (fewer than 1000). Improving the ability of the Shogun’s force to withstand major losses means increasing the number of fighters and machines. There are several ways of doing this, including improving trade to enable more effective specialization, improving agricultural output, shifting some of the crops from alfalfa (for fuel) to grains, or trading outside the Shogunate to get the necessary resources.

As the Shogun and his daimyo see it, increased trade means either increased freedom of independent movement within the Shogunate or a tightly controlled schedule of trade. The former is highly dangerous to an organization whose main fighting strength is outnumbered by the civilians they are trying to control by more than 230-to-1. (I’m not including the secret police or the support personnel in the army.) A tightly controlled schedule of trade, such that goods and merchants would move under the supervision of the Shogun’s people, would entail a significant increase in the demand for manpower. Also, the main army would lose an element of unpredictability in its movements that the Shogun uses the keep the locals in line. They never know when the main motorized force with its gun trucks and well-disciplined infantry will appear. Rebellion becomes less likely thereby, the Shogun believes. Tying any significant number of troops to merchant convoy detail dilutes the striking power of his main force, which is not desirable. Forcing groups of merchants to move with the main force would be wasteful of fuel and would tie the movements of the main force to trade. All of these options have serious drawbacks for the Shogun.

Improving agricultural output means providing tools and education. Specialists from the State of Nevada and the University of Nevada system survive to this day. Some of them are on the staff of the Shogun. However, improving agriculture is a long-term venture involving educating the farmers, improving the existing soils the old fashioned way, improving the available mix of crops, manufacturing the appropriate tools, delivering more water to the existing fields, opening new fields to cultivation, and so forth. The effort is worth making, overall; but the Shogun knows he won’t reap major benefits anytime soon. There is also the dangerous aspect of increased cooperation between communities full of people who remember that they are Americans and that the Shogun has committed some atrocities in the past.

Planting less alfalfa for biofuel and more potatoes and corn will improve the economy in the medium term. Unfortunately, fuel is security. The Shogun’s main force has to keep rolling because the colors have to be shown from Needles, CA to southeastern Oregon and from Wendover, UT to Lake Tahoe. Consumption of fuel vis-Ã*-vis the output of alfalfa is quite high. The Shogun perceives that a reduction in mobility for the main force means losing the tribute from the Mohave Valley along the Colorado. He would either have to split his force into smaller elements that would lose some of the overwhelming force that has been key to his success or face giving up the outlying regions of his realm. Neither option has been attractive so far.

As a consequence, as of April 2001 the Shogun is seriously considering entering into what amounts to a feudal arrangement in Nevada. Thus far, he has kept the locals in line through threats of violence and the use of secret police. He is thinking seriously that he needs to become chief executive of a more legitimate government, which would have laws and which would impose obligations on the Shogun as lord of the realm. Giving the locals some sort of voice in the power structure should keep rebellion at bay, the Shogun thinks. Needless to say, there are drawbacks to giving the locals a voice in the management of the system that has subjected them to a reign of terror for more than two years.

What is obvious to the Shogun is that things can’t go on as they have been going. Marauders have been appearing in the Sierra Nevada as they are pushed eastwards by forces of 6th US Army in California’s Central Valley. It’s only a matter of time before Milgov troops appear in Truckee on I-80. Utah has been stabilizing. It is only a matter of time before a threat arises from the east. Mexican Army prisoners captured in the Mohave Valley report that the 111th Brigade has been conducting joint anti-marauder sweeps with Brigada Nogales and that the Mexican Civil War has effectively ended the Second Mexican-American War. Worse, the workshops under the Shogun’s control are reporting increasing shortages of critical materials and worn-out machines. The Shogun knows that if he wants to survive, he is going to have to change before change is imposed on him. A Japanese-style feudal arrangement in Nevada may fit the bill.


Webstral

[Mohoender]

It works fine during an entire part human history. Japan and Western Europe of course. But the most interesting country to adopt this system was the Byzentium Empire. There, each soldier was to gain a certain estate after his time. The main drawback to this system is that you quickly run out of free land.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

It works fine during an entire part human history. Japan and Western Europe of course. But the most interesting country to adopt this system was the Byzentium Empire. There, each soldier was to gain a certain estate after his time. The main drawback to this system is that you quickly run out of free land.

In Europe, feudalism worked great (if you weren't a serf) until after the Black Plague. After that, so much of the population had died that hoards of surviving people could basically move into places and take anything (including property) with little fear of reprisal, and surviving skilled people were almost worth their weight in gold. Survivors could demand fair treatment and wages, because the surviving employers who needed them couldn't necessarily just hire someone else -- in many cases, there wasn't anyone else. So feudalism might not necessarily work in the T2K timeline. Feudalism also didn't work so well after the Black Plague because in the countryside, land was often there for the taking; there was a lot of room for food production and not enough farmers. Again, farmers could demand a fair price for their goods.

OK, so let's throw a wrench into the works. After the Black Plague, the land was viable, the surviving people were mostly those who had either an inborn resistance to the plague, those who survived catching the plague and had built up resistance, and those who had the tiny bit of decent, enlightened medical care that existed at the time. Though there were marauder bands, recent historical research has shown that they weren't as prevalent as was once believed. There were also almost no firearms of any sort; even trained bowmen and crossbowmen were scarce.

In the T2K world, much of the land is poisoned by chemical, biological, and nuclear warfare. Firearms are everywhere, and a modern firearm is easier to use and makes one more dangerous than even the best crossbow of the Middle Ages. (Assuming you have the guts to pull the trigger...unless you are a psycho, you'd be surprised how morally difficult it is to pull the trigger on a human being that first time.) A sort of "Nuclear Autumn" makes crops even harder to grow. Much technology is either non-functional, has to be fixed by skilled personnel, or just plain useless -- and most folks in the modern world (especially in the industrialized world) just don't know what to do without that tech. They are used to calling the police and EMS when something goes wrong, and emergency services are scarcer than hen's teeth. There aren't any grocery stores anymore -- or for the most part, any stores at all. And after the November Nuclear Strikes, the change would be sudden -- learn fast or die.

So much of those 51% of the population that survived the nuclear exchange might well find themselves under the thumb of a warlord that has guns, food, gear, medicine, and the skills to use them, as well as the wherewithal to use those abilities as a weapon to keep the surrounding population in line and subjugated as virtual slaves. Serfdom has returned (if not outright slavery).

It could go either way, and in the T2K world, serfdom and sort-of "co-ops" will probably both exist.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

It works fine during an entire part human history. Japan and Western Europe of course. But the most interesting country to adopt this system was the Byzentium Empire. There, each soldier was to gain a certain estate after his time. The main drawback to this system is that you quickly run out of free land.

That's the real reason that the Catholic Church made celibacy among its priests mandatory -- early in the Church's history, Church lands and other property were being inherited by Church clerics' kids and eating up the property of the Church. It was threatening the Pope's power and the financial underpinning of the Catholic Church.

[Webstral]

I agree with you, Paul. Many social arrangements will emerge in post-Exchange America (and elsewhere around the world).

Webstral

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

It works fine during an entire part human history. Japan and Western Europe of course. But the most interesting country to adopt this system was the Byzentium Empire. There, each soldier was to gain a certain estate after his time. The main drawback to this system is that you quickly run out of free land.

they made new wars of conquest I guess to keep up the scheme ?

[headquarters]

If a big nuclear war triggered teotwawkit - theendoftheworldasweknowit- I guess feudalism could make a big comeback .

We have incorporated this into our campaign in some areas .The lords use different methods for staying in power always boiling down tro the same thing - military might to back up demands.

But in teh everyday running of things there are far more important schemes to draw people in and keep them subjugated.

Many or most people need to be helped to survive post exchange.They have little or no skills when it comes to surviving without a mall to cater to all needs and modern utilities.

So those who can do stuff become leaders some places-or the much prized slaves of those who are willing to and able to subjugate their fellow men.
Specialists like doctors ,dentists,farmers or those with degrees in agriculture experts and knowledgable people of all kinds are in this category .

Most people will tolerate a great deal from the guys who run things as long as the only doctor in their new known world is managed by them.

Some places have limited supplies of tillable lands,clean water or other supplies like food,medicines etc .Needs that can be exchanged in to power for those who control the supply.

The classic "I work your land -you fight for me " feudalism exist some places too - especially in areas where firearms and ammo is in the hands of the few.Less so where most people have guns and ammo.

As for a campaign setting ,I find the dictatorial feudalistic enclaves very useful for pitching a fight between the party and the antagonists.

I doubt very much that a democratic rule based on equality and liberties would be common - but it would surely exist some places .We have these types of areas in our campaign too - the players never seem to feel at home there though..Like they find the lack of brutal subjugation boring...

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by headquarters

If a big nuclear war triggered teotwawkit - theendoftheworldasweknowit- I guess feudalism could make a big comeback .

We have incorporated this into our campaign in some areas .The lords use different methods for staying in power always boiling down tro the same thing - military might to back up demands.

But in teh everyday running of things there are far more important schemes to draw people in and keep them subjugated.

Many or most people need to be helped to survive post exchange.They have little or no skills when it comes to surviving without a mall to cater to all needs and modern utilities.

So those who can do stuff become leaders some places-or the much prized slaves of those who are willing to and able to subjugate their fellow men.
Specialists like doctors ,dentists,farmers or those with degrees in agriculture experts and knowledgable people of all kinds are in this category .

Most people will tolerate a great deal from the guys who run things as long as the only doctor in their new known world is managed by them.

Some places have limited supplies of tillable lands,clean water or other supplies like food,medicines etc .Needs that can be exchanged in to power for those who control the supply.

The classic "I work your land -you fight for me " feudalism exist some places too - especially in areas where firearms and ammo is in the hands of the few.Less so where most people have guns and ammo.

As for a campaign setting ,I find the dictatorial feudalistic enclaves very useful for pitching a fight between the party and the antagonists.

I doubt very much that a democratic rule based on equality and liberties would be common - but it would surely exist some places .We have these types of areas in our campaign too - the players never seem to feel at home there though..Like they find the lack of brutal subjugation boring...

'
you're talking about my domain here ....right?

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by General Pain

'
you're talking about my domain here ....right?

good one --

nope.