WarPac Vehicle Guide?

[Muti]

Hello guys! I was wondering... you know if there is something like a Warsaw Pact Vehicle Guide? Maybe some Twilight enthusiast got the idea in the past and write something like that.

For example, I remember a nice "Czechoslovak Vehicle Guide" on Chico's T2k file dump. Other stuff like that?

[pmulcahy11b]

One of the core books for Twilight 2000 is the Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook, and it includes Warsaw Pact vehicles and some TOEs and OOBs (which, since the book's publication in 1990, many in forums such as this one have pointed out some errors and things that don't make sense).

[Muti]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

have pointed out some errors and things that don't make sense

I have that book... what kind of errors and meaningless things are you talking about? I'm developing an interest on TOEs and OOBs so your corrections could be useful.

[Raellus]

Welcome to the forum, Muti!

IIRC, Chico intended to create a Polish Army vehicle guide but other time consuming T2K projects have taken precedence as of late. I really hope he's able to produce a PAVG someday soon since a lot of us GM or play in games set in Poland. His Czech Army VG is simply brilliant.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Muti

I have that book... what kind of errors and meaningless things are you talking about? I'm developing an interest on TOEs and OOBs so your corrections could be useful.

They're not my corrections; there's some things that have been pointed out by posters here and there over the years (and that's true in general of the original GDW booklets). I'll look in my hard drive and see exactly what I have about it, but you may have to nag me, because right now I'm really sick. The H1N1 I have has also allowed a secondary bacterial infection into my sinuses and possibly other parts of my body, and I've pretty much been running an almost-continuous fever for a month. My thinking and memory are very screwed up. I'm deliberately not doing anything related to my web site right now because it will probably turn out to be a mess.

OK, that was a ramble...

[fightingflamingo]

Chico has some highly detailed ORBATs for the WP, which are based on extensive research... he's got some of them up on his website I think, he's also run a comparison to the Soviet Vehicle Guide unit IDs/and replaced them with historic ID's. It seems GDW had mixed up a bunch of the later mobilizing divisional army ID's. He's also got good stuff on mobilization only, training, and depot divisions, for Poland, GDR, & Hungary. Not sure about the rest of the WP, besides the Czech's which you'd mentioned.

[Muti]

Thank you for the replies guys and thak you Raellus for the welcome!

To Paul: hang on man! By the way... your site is impressive. Lots of details just as I like.

About the TOEs, some days ago I found on the net the three Field Manuals on "The Soviet Army" and, on volume 100-2-3 ,I discovered LOTS of TOEs obtained by the US Army from unclassified information on Soviet ground forces. Do you think that they can be used as TOEs for other countries of the WarPac?

[fightingflamingo]

yes and no... the non-Soviet WP nations were equipt with less capable equipment that would be in a Soviet division of the same mobilization category. Additionally, there were vehicles used in Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland which were of local design and manufacture (FUG's & OT-65,64's).
Generally, the non-Soviet Armies in the WP followed the same pattern of organization, even if mix was different.

It just occurred to me that the non-Soviet WP generally had more towed artillery, and that mix increased as you went south in the WP towards Bulgaria.

[Muti]

And what about the TOEs on Orbat.com?

http://www.orbat.com/site/history/hi...arsawpact.html

At the bottom of the page there are "Warsaw Pact Forces Generic Table of Organization and Equipment".

[chico20854]

Orders of Battle:

Warsaw Pact, 1 OCT 1996:

Western TVD (Theater of Military Operations):
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...ZDc2OTY3&hl=en

Northwestern TVD:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...MTNhNDlm&hl=en

Southwestern TVD:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...OWMzZmI1&hl=en

Southern TVD:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...NTBkOTgy&hl=en

Far Eastern TVD:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...Y2E5YWMx&hl=en

RGVK (Reserve of the High Command):
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...MWJjYjhl&hl=en

and a bonus:

Chinese People's Liberation Army, 1 OCT 96, version 1.5:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...ZTU4YzFk&hl=en (edit: the newer version was on my thumb drive...)

This will all get onto my website http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ sometime in the next week or 2...

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Orders of Battle:

Chinese People's Liberation Army, 1 OCT 96, version 1:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0...NGI5MGYw&hl=en (a newer version is on the hard drive at home...)

This is excellent. I have a month-long break from school coming up after Christmas, and I have been giving serious thought to getting back into The Storm in Germany and/or the Sino-Soviet War. If you don't mind, I may simply appropriate your OB as of 01 OCT for the PLA and guide towards it during 1996.

Webstral

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Webstral

This is excellent. I have a month-long break from school coming up after Christmas, and I have been giving serious thought to getting back into The Storm in Germany and/or the Sino-Soviet War. If you don't mind, I may simply appropriate your OB as of 01 OCT for the PLA and guide towards it during 1996.

Webstral

I altered the RL historical Group Army designations to match the ones in your earlier work, as best as I could. Since the gap is so huge, I fudged it, and assumed (and we all know what assuming makes...) that the net result of the 1996 campaign season on the Chinese army was zero - that the 80-some new divisions feared by the Soviet politburu prior to Tchaikovskiy were either not raised, raised and destroyed during the year, disbanded to bring existing units back up to strength, or simply took the unit numbers of units that had been wiped out. On the equipment, heavy mortars and truck and trailer-mounted MRLs have become dominant, easier to manufacture than traditional tube artillery. Higher-level reserve artillery units are equipped with Western-supplied Assault Breaker systems - essentially HIMARS rocket systems firing ATACMS with Skeet submunitions.

The reinforcements listed in the newer version of the orbat are in keeping in line with your supposition that 80 divisions could be raised in 5 months. 75% of those units are committed to the Northern War Zone, the rest split between the Strategic Reserve (50%), the far west (25%) and the Vietnamese border (25%). They are listed going forward so that we can wargame the Far Eastern campaign, initially for the Soviet Army Guide but also for a Northeast Asia Sourcebook, which will hopefully eventually cover Hanoi-Anchorage.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by chico20854

...the net result of the 1996 campaign season on the Chinese army was zero - that the 80-some new divisions feared by the Soviet politburu prior to Tchaikovskiy were either not raised, raised and destroyed during the year, disbanded to bring existing units back up to strength, or simply took the unit numbers of units that had been wiped out.

Seems like a logical approach.

[Muti]

Chico, you are simply A M A Z I N G !

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Muti

Chico, you are simply A M A Z I N G !

Well that's true ...indeed...however Muti you might have use for some of mine and HQs work - loads of tanks,airplanes and whatnot

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/

[Muti]

Originally Posted by General Pain

Well that's true ...indeed...however Muti you might have use for some of mine and HQs work - loads of tanks,airplanes and whatnot

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/

Thank you! I really appreciated it.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Muti

Chico, you are simply A M A Z I N G !

Thanks!

Looking at the file history, I started working on that document in January 2007. Research for it started in early 2004 and called on sources in English, Bulgarian, Czech, Hungarian, Polish, Romanian and Russia. At times the rest of the guys in the DC Group were frustrated that when it was looking like an end was in sight, I'd find another source and re-open a can of worms (like when I discovered a comprehensive list of Mobilization-only divisions for 1985). I'm glad its done!!! (Although I need to do an update to put the division's readiness category on the TVD-level sheet rather than leaving on the summary document).

It's up to Jason to transform it into a Vehicle Guide!

[Muti]

Finally I had the time to read all the OOBs but now I have several doubts mainly because my english is not good as yours!

1) First of all, what do you mean for "Direct reporting"? Maybe something like: "Independent units"?

2) What do you mean for "Spare"? For example: "Spare Artillery Brigade" or "Spare Motor-Rifle Division"?

3) What is the TOE for a Missile Brigade? And for a KGB Motor-Rifle Regiment, a Border Guard Battalion and a Special Border Control Battalion?

Thank you in advance for your patience!

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Muti

Finally I had the time to read all the OOBs but now I have several doubts mainly because my english is not good as yours!

1) First of all, what do you mean for "Direct reporting"? Maybe something like: "Independent units"?

2) What do you mean for "Spare"? For example: "Spare Artillery Brigade" or "Spare Motor-Rifle Division"?

3) What is the TOE for a Missile Brigade? And for a KGB Motor-Rifle Regiment, a Border Guard Battalion and a Special Border Control Battalion?

Thank you in advance for your patience!

1) Direct reporting units report to the Front/Army headquarters without any headquarters in between - for example, an independent battalion that reports to an army headquarters rather than a regiment or division.

2) Spare units were mobilization-only units that had at most a small cadre although often fairly complete equipment sets. (For example, when the Soviet forces in Mongolia upgraded from T-62s to T-72s, they sent the complete set of tanks to spare units in Siberia.)

3) The missile brigades varied depending on the number of systems they had. In general, batteries had 2 or 3 TELs, grouped into battalions with 2-4 missile batteries, a meterological detachment, engineers, maintenance and guard units. 1-3 battalions per brigade.

Border Battalion: 4 infantry companies, mortar battery (mix of 82mm Vasilyek and 120mm), AT platoon with SPG-9 recoilless rifles. Foot, horse, ski or truck mobile.

Reaction (Mechanized) Battalion: 1 BMP-2 infantry company (10 BMPs), 4 BTR infantry companies (40 BTRs total), tank company (10 T-80s), mortar battery (as in border battalion), AT platoon with SPG-9s. Trucks for units not in APCs/IFVs.

Air Assault Battalion: as border battalion.

Border Guard Brigade: 3 border battalions, 1 reaction battalion, engineer company, artillery battery (6 76mm light guns), rocket battery (9 BM-21s). May be wilderness or mountain capable, depending on area of peacetime employment.

KGB Motor-Rifle Regiment: 4 reaction battalions, 1 air assault battalion, engineer battalion, artillery battalion (12 76mm light guns), rocket battery (12 BM-21s).

Border Aviation Regiment: 18 attack helicopters.

[Muti]

Great! Thank you Chico, by the way, where you found those information? For Soviet TOEs I have the Twilight 2000 sourcebooks, some books from Osprey and the FM 100-2-3 "Soviet Army: Troops, Organization and Equipment".

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Muti

Great! Thank you Chico, by the way, where you found those information? For Soviet TOEs I have the Twilight 2000 sourcebooks, some books from Osprey and the FM 100-2-3 "Soviet Army: Troops, Organization and Equipment".

The KGB Border Guards is an average of information from the 80s. There were about 80 border detachments, and the number of battalions varied according to the terrain. The border guard brigades therefore represent an average of some of the specific units I found information about. The tanks and artillery were frequently referenced (in both Western and Russian sources) but I couldn't find where they fit in the TOEs, so I had to make some assumptions. The KGB Motor-Rifle Regiments likewise represent an average of the Border Guard Mobile Groups which were in action in Afghanistan. The information on the TOEs comes from forums for vets of the Border Guards, http://www.ryadovoy.ru/forum/index.php?topic=16 and
http://forum.pogranichnik.ru/ both in Russian. (I spent a LOT of time with google translate, since I don't speak Russian although I can read bits of it!)

For the Soviet Army I got TOEs from the same sources you used, plus "Weapons & Tactics of the Soviet Army" by David Isby, the forums at tank-net.org and the following:

Fes'kov V.I.: "The Soviet Army in the Years of the "Cold War" (1945-1991)" online in Russian at: http://www.soldat.ru/files/f/000000d8.pdf
soldat.ru forums (in Russian)
airborne & Spetsnaz (in Russian): http://desantura.ru/forums/index.php?
Armed forces of the USSR (in Russian): http://www8.brinkster.com/vad777/sssr-89-91/sssr.htm
Rubezh forums (in Russian) online at: http://ryadovoy.ru/forum/index.php

Bulgaria:
boinaslava.net forum disscusion (in Bulgarian) at: http://forum.boinaslava.net/showthread.php?t=7695

Czechoslovakia:
http://armada.vojenstvi.cz/

Hungary:
(in Hungarian) http://forum.index.hu/Article/showAr...12&la=51202149

Poland:
Serwisu Militarnego forum post "Wojsko Polskie w 1986 r" (in Polish) at: http://www.serwis-militarny.net/link...ik=lwp1986.zip

[Muti]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Fes'kov V.I.: "The Soviet Army in the Years of the "Cold War" (1945-1991)" online in Russian at: http://www.soldat.ru/files/f/000000d8.pdf

I have an english translation of this book! Never used it anyway because it was made with a translator and I found it a bit incorrect...

People on TankNet forum usually call this book "Tomsk Book"... Don't know why, maybe because they didn't understood that Tomsk is just the city where it was originally published!

Anyway, before someone ask, I took the liberty to upload the translation (in PDF format) on Megaupload. If you have not familiarity with a web sharing site just follow my instruction: click on the following link, insert the code, wait some seconds and then start the download.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MN4JWXJ6

[antimedic]

Chico, how would the Fortified Regions be equipped?

[chico20854]

Muti-

I have the English translation as well, and I also find it's not that useful. I had better luck with the Russian version!

Antimedic-

The fortified regions are smaller versions of the machinegun-artillery divisions. A 1996 US Army report described them:

"Machinegun-Artillery Divisions

In accordance with the need to defend extended sectors with fewer troops and at lower cost, the Basic Forces now also field some machine gun-artillery divisions. These are linear descendants of the World War II fortified regions.

They are strong in machineguns, mortars, artillery, antitank guided missiles, and dug-in tanks, but weak in bayonet and modern tank strength. There is no standard organization for these divisions as they are tailored specifically to the terrain they are to defend.

The role of these semi-static, economy of force formations (and of separate machinegun-artillery regiments) is to hold long secondary sectors or areas where the terrain is especially suited to positional defence. Their tactical areas of responsibility are fortified in peacetime with well prepared and camouflaged primary and alternate positions and plentiful dummy/reserve ones. They form a series of independent strongpoints, often echeloned in considerable depth, with limited counter-penetration and counterattack reserves to plug gaps and support the defense. Figure 1-4 [below] illustrates one of a number of possible variations of organization."



A few I've been able to find details on:

97th Fortified Area (Priargunsk): 3 motorized rifle bns (4 companies in each), a combat engineer bn, 4 tank Bns (also w/ 4 companies each), AT Bn (85mm AT) & BM-21 Btry

and
11th Fortified Region (Bogdanovka, Chita oblast): 5 machinegun-artillery battalions, a T-55 battalion, BM-21 battalion and engineer company.

These units don't play much of a role in my vision of the war. They are generally along the Chinese, Turkish or Iranian borders, all of which the Soviets fight well beyond. By the time (if) NATO troops get close to those borders, the garrisons have been stripped of men, ammunition and mobile troops.

[Muti]

Chico, I'm sorry to abuse of your patience again.

I'm looking for TOEs information also on Independent Regiment for Protection and Guarantee, Mixed Air Squadron, Rear Area Protection Division and Helicopter Transport Regiment. I found all those units in your OOBs. If it is possibile I'm also searching the approximately number of men and vehicles.

I trust in your knowledge!

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Muti

Chico, I'm sorry to abuse of your patience again.

I'm looking for TOEs information also on Independent Regiment for Protection and Guarantee, Mixed Air Squadron, Rear Area Protection Division and Helicopter Transport Regiment. I found all those units in your OOBs. If it is possibile I'm also searching the approximately number of men and vehicles.

I trust in your knowledge!

No problem!

I think the Independent Regiment for Protection and Guarantee was a glasnost/perestroika-friendly term for the commander's personal independent regiment. Suvorov (widely discredited, I realize, but useful for creating a big, bad 10-ft tall Russian!) described such units as tank regiments, but by the late 1980s they'd been reformed into mixed tank-motor rifle units. I basically cast them as high quality (both in terms of equipment and personnel) independent motor-rifle regiments, sometimes with 2 tank and 2 M-R battalions (plus arty, engineers, etc)., depending on what info I could find on the real unit.

A mixed air squadron was usually a commander's liaison aviation unit, containing airborne command post, light transport and elint aircraft.

I haven't found anything on the TOE of a rear-area protection division, just some grumbling along the lines of "they really don't deserve to be called a division of the Soviet Army" in Russian. I cast them basically as 1950s style rifle divisions, with a single battalion of obsolete tanks (T-34, T-54 and the like), some obsolete artillery and lots of mobilization-only reserve infantrymen. Their role was to protect supply lines and hunt down partisans. Only when the situation becomes truly desperate do they get committed to action against NATO.

A helicopter transport regiment had 29-46 Mi-8/17 and 26-30 Mi-6/26 assigned in the late 90s. That's enough lift to move a big chunk of an air assault brigade (75 Mi-8/17, 35 Mi-6/26 without BMDs).

Oh, I also found the official TOE of a Scud/SS-23 brigade (in Russian):
http://9k72.ru/page.php?41 - I'd post a translation but you might have better luck translating directly into Italian from Russian than putting it in English first.

[Matt Wiser]

Those rear-area divisions must've been someone's way of having additional divisions on the OB without having to really do much. I mean, late WW II or early 1950s era equipment and forty-year old reservists to man them? Reminds me of the image in Bear and the Dragon where General Bodarenko is settling into his new command and finding out he's got warehouses full of World War II era tanks and artillery, and the soldiers assigned to the stockpiles turned the engines over on the tanks, and even took them out for test drives (and probably test fired the guns, too). That would've worked in the '60s or '70s, but in a continued Cold War into the mid '90s? The Russians actually had exercises in 1995 which featured JS-3 tanks, and they were withdrawn from service immediately after the exercise.

If no Glasnost, those "Protection and Guarantee" Regiments would probably have maintained their designation as independent MR Regiments. Those independent regiments may have been how Ivan found four regiments available to deploy to Cuba in 1962, as none of the four that were sent to Cuba belonged to a parent division. And separating four regiments from their parent divisions may have alerted Western Intelligence that something was up.

[Muti]

Thank you again Chico!

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Those rear-area divisions must've been someone's way of having additional divisions on the OB without having to really do much. I mean, late WW II or early 1950s era equipment and forty-year old reservists to man them? Reminds me of the image in Bear and the Dragon where General Bodarenko is settling into his new command and finding out he's got warehouses full of World War II era tanks and artillery, and the soldiers assigned to the stockpiles turned the engines over on the tanks, and even took them out for test drives (and probably test fired the guns, too). That would've worked in the '60s or '70s, but in a continued Cold War into the mid '90s? The Russians actually had exercises in 1995 which featured JS-3 tanks, and they were withdrawn from service immediately after the exercise.

In 1988 a category B(!) tank division in the Ukraine turned in its T-10s to the local steel combine to be melted down. And the 1990 Victory Day parade featured T-34s running through Red Square. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ix7UwFwlDI

As far as 40-year old reservists, with conscription it would be possible to really increase the size of the Red Army (at the cost of crippling the economy further) with just men in their 20s. (To double the peacetime strength would require callup of the last 2 classes, those 20-22 years old. That would bring the whole army up to or near full strength. Expand the net to 22-26 year olds and you double the size again. New conscripts equal to 50% of peacetime enlisted strength come in every six months before lowering the age of conscription. With these sort of numbers it takes a while before you get to 40 year olds. (Officers and michmeny are another issue, however...)

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

If no Glasnost, those "Protection and Guarantee" Regiments would probably have maintained their designation as independent MR Regiments. Those independent regiments may have been how Ivan found four regiments available to deploy to Cuba in 1962, as none of the four that were sent to Cuba belonged to a parent division. And separating four regiments from their parent divisions may have alerted Western Intelligence that something was up.

Those regiments were tank regiments before Glasnost. I remember reading something in Russian about the units sent to Cuba in 1962; they were single regiments assembled as composites from entire divisions from the Moscow and other central military districts; new regiments were raised to replace them.

[Matt Wiser]

A Cat B division still having T-10s? They had to have been tagged for Southwestern TVD not to have any T-64s or T-72s. I do remember seeing the 1990 V-E Day parade on the news, those T-34s looked factory fresh. They had T-34s in the 1995 parade if I'm not mistaken.

Chico, have you read the book Defcon-2: the Story of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The authors say that the four MR Regiments sent to Cuba were independent regiments, and were reflagged before deploying to Cuba. The reason they were chosen was that if they were split off from a parent division, it'd be a sign that something was up and Western Intelligence might get wind of it.