Player Rank

[kato13]

DeaconR 11-09-2005, 08:23 AM Sometimes this is not a big deal, but I've noticed that in a number of games it seems to be believed that the players are going to be NCOs or low ranking officers as far as the leadership of the team goes. A couple of good examples: "Gateway to the Spanish Main" "Airlords of the Ozarks" "Allegheny Uprising"

However quite clearly the rules allow for characters to have the rank of major +. Furthermore, what do you do with senior officers once say you've played "Going Home" or some module like that?


I'm not really stumped, I have worked things out in my own game but I'm curious about what others have done.

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graebardeII 11-09-2005, 08:46 AM As a player, the only thing I play as a rule is old soldier, NCO. Though I have played other ranks from private to even a Major once. In MOST games I have been in the HoG frowned upon SENIOR ranks for good reasons. And as for getting Home? The ONLY game I ever got all the way from Poland to the US we were on our own when we arrived. Our group arrived in a Tug with large barge we aquired on the Vistuala (long story in a longer campaign), and a 90 foot Baltic schooner we aquired on the coast of Poland (more chapters in the story). We were 'merchants' by the time the schooner made landfall in Halifax area. Actually the two vessels got seperated in a storm off the east coast, and the tug limped into Boston. Rank was a long gone 'nobody cares what rank you held thing'.

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ChalkLine 11-09-2005, 02:14 PM I find rank to be one of the most divisive elements of the game, and careful GMing is required to stop lower ranking players being marginalised.


In the classic T2K setting you can have two players in the same group, a major and a spec 4, and if the player of the major isn't a good player he can really diminish the enjoyment of the spec 4's gamer through taking over the spec 4's freedom of action. A lot of the problem lies in the fact that the ranks are given as a linear progression and not viewed as a statisticl likelyhood of the player being an officer etc. In my games, nearly everyone is a private, because that's what wartime armies are made of (and they're the guys that win or lose the war). Statistically, you have a far more lielyhood of being a bottom ranker than anything else, but the game usually makes you a sergeant or much higher.


Still, we've found the dynamic of 'officer' campaigns is very different from 'enlisted' campaigns. Officer games often become micro-empire building games because they can command lower ranks they encounter to follow and support them, we had quite a good game where three officers liberated a town and overwintered there. They took over the defence of the town, and stragglers started heading there because they knew that military discipline and law was in power there, something solid amidst the chaos. The players raided a POW column and then a POW camp to free more NATO soldiers, and eventually had a full company under each (two mech and one armour). The game was fun, very campaign oriented and we used it to have other PCs in the companies that the officer players had, so we could have more nitty-gritty games.

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Rainbow Six 11-09-2005, 03:24 PM I always thought it would be a cool idea to play out the Kalisz scenario with characters who were part of 5th Dvn Command Group...maybe one Humvee that gets separted from the rest, with one of the Assistant Division Commanders, one or two of the other senior Staff officers...a senior Sergeant or a Sergeant Major...that sort of thing...a group that was low on numbers, but high on in experience (in character)...I mentioned this idea before and someone suggested including the Divisional Chaplain...and of course a Spec 4 to drive the thing...

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TiggerCCW UK 11-09-2005, 04:46 PM In the game that I'm gearing up to run I limited the players to being low ranks. The last game I tried ended up with one of the quieter less assertive players being the ranking officer, which didn't really work. This time around they're all Spec 4's and privates, apart form one drafted doctor, who's technically an LT. Whether or not he'll try to pull rank is one thing, and whether or not the other PC's will let him is another.

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Targan 11-09-2005, 11:06 PM Way back in the dim and distant past when my current campaign started, Po was the only officer, and he was a Captain. I didn't really want even that high a rank in the game, but Po was a medical doctor with some serious money and political connections, so I figured Captain was appropriate. Also, the way we do character generation, every year is worked out from the point a character finishes their secondary education.


Once the party reached Krakow, another PC had rolled up an Army Major, a bit older than the other characters, and I didn't mind because Po's methods by then were shitting me, and I was happy to see someone else in charge. But that Major, Lynch, died going after the Black Madonna, and by that stage the party was trying to take over B Troop at Dobrodzien, so DIA Colonel Stark promoted Po to Major so he would outrank Molly Warren and be able to take over B Troop unopposed. Stark and Po got on well, they both used "questionable methods" quite freely.


The player who had played Lynch next played a Lt engineer, but he died shortly after the party nuked Lublin, and that player wanted a shot at being in charge again, so he geared character generation for his next character towards high rank and rolled up his current character, Lt Commander Jones, the Navy SEAL. Jones has only very recently been promoted, however, so Po is still in charge.


The players in my game have never really had a problem with following the rank structure, with just a few exceptions. The most notable one is Ratowi, the 6'6 Samoan USMC sniper, who is so mean and physically imposing that most officers and NCOs ask him to do things rather than order him. I laughed and laughed when Ratowi (played by my little brother) walked up to Po one day and told him he was not happy with the rank of Corporal, and wanted a promotion. Po went a bit pale, and promoted Ratowi to Sgt later the same day!

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DeaconR 11-10-2005, 04:51 AM Rank was a long gone 'nobody cares what rank you held thing'.


This is certainly one way the game can go, and is probably the easiest solution considering that most players don't like being bossed around by one another.



I find rank to be one of the most divisive elements of the game, and careful GMing is required to stop lower ranking players being marginalised


All of what you said is I'm sure something most of us have found a PITA sometimes. In fact in my present game I had to take the senior ranking character's player aside and say "You HAVE to talk to the other characters about the plans you want to make." He's a reasonable guy and ironically it is that he is normally in real life a modest sort of fellow that made him get a bit over the top. Also unfortunately his rank is lieutenant-colonel, which overwhelms that of everyone else.



I always thought it would be a cool idea to play out the Kalisz scenario with characters who were part of 5th Dvn Command Group...maybe one Humvee that gets separted from the rest, with one of the Assistant Division Commanders, one or two of the other senior Staff officers...a senior Sergeant or a Sergeant Major...that sort of thing...a group that was low on numbers, but high on in experience (in character)...I mentioned this idea before and someone suggested including the Divisional Chaplain...and of course a Spec 4 to drive the thing...


I very nearly did this, and in fact think of it wistfully sometimes. I thought it would make perfect sense of why you had such an odd assortment of ranks and specialties. However, my players ended up proposing that they wanted in effect a special intelligence and recon group. I decided that this was fair enough and it has been fun. But it is such a cool idea that I am saving it up to try it sometime.


One effect of this by the way is that rank is not so important to most of the group as ability is, and everyone feels they have the right to give some input; it is only when things are dicey that the senior character gives orders. Even then, the other players will say "we oughta do this" and he will more often than not support the idea.


Targan, why did Po need to 'take over' B Troop? Did you use it in a major way?


Also I laughed at your incident about the Samoan, in particular because in an ironic similarity the female MI6 agent has more than once scolded the team leader as though he were a naughty schoolboy.

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thefusilier 11-10-2005, 08:29 AM We were 'merchants' by the time the schooner made landfall in Halifax area.


Heh, my town!


Whenever I play as GM or player I always discourage high ranking players. It always seemed odd for my squad sized crew to be hauling around a colonel or whatever. They just seemed so out of place within the team and my fellow players never really could play a credible high ranking person to well in my opinion anyways.

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Targan 11-11-2005, 02:11 AM DeaconR, Po's party did not really "need" to take over the command of B Troop at all, but once Po, and his immediate CO at the time Lynch, got wind that the unit existed nearby (I think they were told the general details by Stark), they made contact. Po was, and to a lesser extent still is, quite misogynist and elitist, and despite not really being a bona fide military man himself, decided that Captain Molly Warren could not possibly know what she was doing because she was a National Guard member, a rural bank branch manager and (shock horror) a woman. Once Lynch died, Po decided he might need some extra personnel to help him punch out of Poland and back to Germany (Stark had entrusted Po's party with transporting the Operation Reset equipment and data back to higher command).


As it turned out, B Troop mutinied under Po's command, Po's party left the area heading east instead of west to insert their nuke in Lublin, and left Poland via the Vistula river and a captured Shershen class torpedo boat instead of overland as originally planned. There was also an incident in which Po, who had been getting quite close to Warren and hoped to bed her, made a major faux pas which resultewd in her despising him thereafter (for God only knows what reason, Po licked the facial scar Warren received at the hands of the Russians who raped her).


Prior to the mutiny, Po used B Troop for just two major missions, the first an ill-considered and largely fruitless offensive against the forces of the Markgraf of Selisia and the nearest WarPac units (resulting in the loss of a number of vehicles and personnel including Lt Schaeffer), and a smaller operation against the forces of the City of Krakow which was basically in retaliation for an attempt by Krakow's leadership to capture Po and his men and shut down the DIA operation in the city. Po used some of B Troops more heavily armed vehicles such as a LAV TOW launch vehicle to shoot up some of the city's taller and more historic buildings, with no real military objective. That was basically what sparked the mutiny.


In an interesting post script, in the game session before last, Po learned that B Troop was evacuated with Operation Omega, and many of its personnel had been sent to the 78th as reinforcements. Po had got along well with Staff Sgt John Blue Elf, who was a regular Army tanker, so he has lodged a request for Blue Elk to be transferred to his command. Blue Elk still has the dessicated heart and custom bowie knife of one of the PCs who died in Poland, US Army cavalryman "Tex" Walker, who on his deathbed asked Blue Elk to bury his heart back in Texas. Po is still hoping to have Warren and several of her officers Court Martialled, vengeful little man that he is.

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DeaconR 11-11-2005, 07:29 AM ...Targan, the guy playing Po is very strange. What on Earth does he want Capt. Warren court martialed for? I am getting the impression that having access to firepower has gone to your players' heads.


BTW everyone one reason why I brought this up is that I suspect that based on some of the replies that gms tailor player backgrounds rather than permit them to just roll up characters. Sometimes of course you have to but does that mean that gms here never give players leeway about character generation?

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Abbott Shaull 11-12-2005, 08:35 AM No in my games players draw it up and then tweak it from there. Usually the tweaks are too bad. The only time as GM I have had to put my foot down is when someone couldn't come up with a valid reason why their character from this service or agency was stuck here in the middle of war that wasn't really believable.


I have found usually when GM has to tell a player what they are. It isn't quite as fun. I also know there are times when GM can't tell players too much, but I try to explain as much possible for my reasons before I slam doors close.


Usually when I make a character I ask lot of question when playing a game. Due to the fact I don't want to be told later something that I would feel be important to my character has to be change. I like playing character that I can honestly play with the given stats....


Abbott

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pmulcahy 11-12-2005, 08:47 AM Honestly, for the most part, most players I've seen disregarded rank -- for the most part. When I was in the military or Guard and playing in games with civilians, the civilian players tended to defer to those of us who had military experience, wargame experience, or suchlike. Players with little experience tended to defer to players who had a lot of it. And for the most part, anyone who had a good idea in a situation was listened to. Rank really only made a difference when dealing with NPCs or to break a stalemate in decision-making. Sometimes we even traded our PCs ranks around to more properly reflect the experience of the players.

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Abbott Shaull 11-12-2005, 09:18 AM Well the same thing really happens in actually life too. Or at least those who want to survive. If an Officer is switch on he will know that he will not alway have the best way to skin a cat. On the other hand he also knows at times he has to deal with the hand is dealt to him.


During WWII after units got into battle it wasn't unheard of Sergeants being promoted straight from Private rank leaping over PFCs and Corporals along the way. Or for Sergeants having NCO previliges taken away as they were busted or made a Technical. It is one of the reason why Major Dick Winters found himself as the not only the XO of 2nd Battalion of the 506th but actually the CO as a Captain for a while, even though there were Captain who was senior to him even to a point after he was made Major he still technically cry foul and get the job for a while. There was even at time other Captains and Majors in the 506th who were senior to Winters, but Colonel Sink went with the man who he believe could get the job done, rather than the person wearing the rank.


Another example is Captain Nixon after he had been promoted to Regimental Staff. After Colonel Sink realized how much of drunk he was, and unable to find his S3 or was S2 unless he found his 2nd Battalion CO when he wasn't in bed sleeping the morning away... Most Colonels would have brought charges against Nixon, or worse pass him up to Division or another Regimental staff if he could. Part of the reason this would be done is due to the fact how well Winters and Dixon seem to be together. Yet, instead he gave him back to Winters since, they work as well oiled mis-match as they were machine. He realize Nixon was more valuable to the Regiment over-all good working with Winters in much the same way that promoting Winters from Easy would be the best fo 2nd Battalion overall.


At Regimental, Divisional, and higher levels rank was and still is everything, but down below that is where it gets fuzzy. At Battalion and Company levels the Officers are expected to lead and they try to the best of their abilities if they aren't ticket punchers. At lower levels it gets more warm and fuzzy. In peacetime military regulation don't allow for this fuzziness. Since everyone has has their proper place in the chain of command. During combat the real leaders are the ones who say follow me and everyone else follow. Regardless if he is frest out of boot camp...lol


Also it much the same way when new Officers come into a Platoon or Section where both the Officer and the Senior NCO attend all the meetings until the Officers gets experience and everyone is comfortable they are capable of managing the Platoon. Also part of the reason why their NCO back up starting with the Sergeant Major at Battalion level and goes on down to Platoon Sergeant at Platoon level. There are more ways to make sure that orders from one level to the next or followed as intended by higher levels. Actually the NCO back up system goes higher, but at those levels Majors and Lt Colonels who have proven they can do a job done do lot of the work. Even though Colonels and Generals do know how to use their NCOs most of the time and know when to listen and take yes or no for answer. There is a reason how they got there...lol



Abbott

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TR 11-12-2005, 01:22 PM In the campaigns I was part of rank was only an issue for those outside the team, the group my PC's were part of were a mix of NCO's (Sergeants, and the like), an odd Warrant Officer here or there and then a mixture of Lietuenants, Captains, Majors and Colonels. Nobody in the team gave two cents about whose rank was what, they had been through so much in Europe and back home that they had nothing to prove to one another. Now granted the rank did come in handy when you came across some NPC that one of our PC's outranked... we'd pull rank to get our way, or sometimes wouldn't depending on the situation.


However when it came down right to it for my group of PC's rank didn't mean too much to them, if the Warrant Officer had a better idea than the commanding Colonel so be it. No one got their feathers ruffled because of issues of who outranked who.

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jtr 11-12-2005, 09:51 PM G'day,


I have a general rule in my games. If you're ex-military and have some experience of the military life you can play a junior NCO. If you're a career civilian in Real Life (tm) then you are a specialist or PFC equivalent. Those are your options. I'd don't allow senior NCOs or officers except under VERY special circumstances. If I ever DO let you play an officer or senior NCO, or an SF weenie, make sure you send a copy of your will with your character sheet. The pretty red shirt is free...


Cheers


John

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DeaconR 11-13-2005, 04:19 AM You know, I think that any rpg by definition involves roleplaying. Sure, I could easily play someone involved in the church, I could give myself X number of points in theology and religious history as well as leadership. I could also add instruction, small boat handling, swimming, first aid, basic levels of wilderness survival and so on and so forth, and that would be me. And sometimes it is fun to play games like that.


However for the most part the fun of it is in playing something that you find interesting to imagine yourself being. I realize that some people can be utter munchkins about things like military rank, but really, if you have good players and you are a good gm yourself you can have a lot of fun regardless. For instance, no one who has ever played D&D or any sci fi based game is really expected to start seriously studying the occult or swinging a sword around.


I also encourage my players to learn a sense of the idiom of what they are playing. One of my players who has a military background chose to play an MI6 agent instead simply because it seemed exotic and interesting to her. Does she have intelligence community experience? Not at all, but she's a good player and a James Bond fan.


BTW jtr I'm not saying this to attack your approach; I know we all do what suits us and our players best, but I am encouraging those who are wary of allowing higher rank in a game to consider that it might be worth a try.

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jtr 11-13-2005, 04:42 AM G'day,


No, I don't take offence at you disagreeing with me. A free and open exchange of ideas is fine by me.


Leadership ability, like many of the social skills, is something that can be roleplayed across the table or across the internet. Military rank, in some small part, is a reflection of a range of skills including leadership ability, intelligence, education, presence, charisma and no little hard core military skill. In my experience the rank a player wants for his character is usually inversely proportional to his ability to convincingly play that rank! :2pissed:


Unless the game is actually about command only munchkins want to be majors and generals. I try to keep my games as munchkin-free zones. :banghead:


Oh, and yea, I've studied the mythology of a dozen different civilizations and I know plenty of people who spend their weekends wielding real swords. It's amazing what you learn with a little study and a little practical experience. :smile:

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Targan 11-14-2005, 12:05 AM DeaconR, the official reason Po wants Warren court martialled is because she and her unit mutinied against his command. Unofficially I think it pissed him off that she would not have sex with him.


In the character generation system I use, a player has lots of choices available but can not automatically have the career they choose. It would take too long to explain in detail how it works, though. I don't really mind what sort of character a player rolls up as long as I witnes the generation process and it is legit.

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