Helicopters

[kato13]

kcdusk 12-01-2005, 05:46 PM Anyone using helicopters in either a T2K or modern setting?


I am setting up a short piece where PC's trying to outrun a band of soldiers (not a T2K setting) through woods, suddenly they hear and then see a helicopter overhead. It will not see them on the first pass. It is just designed to let the PC's know there is one in the area and make them feel "hunted".


On the second pass though, I want to see if it can engage them. Now, the PC's are in the woods so they would be hard to spot IMO. I didn't want the helicopter (thinking of using the Russian Hind) to have infra red or anything because that is over the top (yea, I know, I'm worried about over-the-top when I already have a Hind in the air!). What chance will it have of picking up a group of 4 PC's in the woods?


If it does engage (or get engaged), what chance do the PC's have? One has a sniper rifle and might try to shoot the pilot (through armoured glass). But the hele if it can spot them will stand off I would think and talk the ground soldiers onto the PC's position or even engage with HMG fire from outside rifle range (will the hele still be able to see the PC's in the woods from that stand off distance though?).

********************

ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 06:30 PM Don't forget, the Hind does not have the ability to hover motionless in the air, it was designed for the steppes after all.

********************

kcdusk 12-01-2005, 06:32 PM I didnt know that ... i had read something similar though ... designed for the steppes ... does that mean it is always on the move because range of view is so far, so there was no need to have a hover ability?


What are the steppes?

********************

copeab 12-01-2005, 07:35 PM I am setting up a short piece where PC's trying to outrun a band of soldiers (not a T2K setting) through woods, suddenly they hear and then see a helicopter overhead. It will not see them on the first pass. It is just designed to let the PC's know there is one in the area and make them feel "hunted".



How about, instead of a Hind, a Ka-25? One or two improvised door guns and the weapons bay modified to take iron bombs (instead of torpedos). Not nearly as tough as the Hind, but something to still scare the players.

********************

graebardeII 12-01-2005, 07:43 PM I didnt know that ... i had read something similar though ... designed for the steppes ... does that mean it is always on the move because range of view is so far, so there was no need to have a hover ability?


What are the steppes?


The steppes are 'flat treeless plains'. Now this does NOT mean to say there are NO hills, or ravines, nor that there are not some trees, but for the most part this holds true. Vast grass prairie, prior to agriculture plowing up large sections.


I was not aware the Hind was hoverless, but then it's a flying tank compared to American attack helicopters.

********************

Grimace 12-01-2005, 10:38 PM I read a really interesting article on the Hind a few years back. An Apache jockey managed to get a chance to fly a Hind and did so, and he related his experience. I don't remember anything about it not being able to hover. I would find that really hard to believe since it IS a helicopter and basically takes off in a hover before it can move forward. It would also have to land the same way. So while it probably isn't nearly as maneuverable or as steady as the Apache or other style of helicopter, I doubt that they lack the ability to hover completely.


A coupe of things that I *DO* remember about the article. The forward "glass" of the Hind is VERY bullet proof. He mentioned he was quite surprised that they could make 4 inches of bullet proof glass as clear as they did. The tests done on the Hind indicated the frontal window could withstand, without breaking or allowing penetration, multiple hits from a .50 caliber machine gun. There was no mention as to how durable the rest of the glass on the cockpit was, but needless to say, a sniper would not be able to take out a Hind by shooting the pilot when the helicopter is coming at the firer.


The other thing I remember was how he was surprised at the lift and shocking maneuverability of the Hind while it was at speed. He mentioned that while it seemed huge, lumbering and cumbersome at slow speeds, once it achieved a certain speed (sorry, I don't remember what speed it was, but it wasn't top speed, I know that) the stubby little wings provided additional lift and that actually enhanced the maneuverability of the aircraft. This Apache pilot admitted that in an arial type of dogfight, he would be afraid of going up against a Hind, and would perhaps give a slight edge to the heavier armored helicopter over his helicopter of use. If the tables were one of hide and seek, though, he said he'd much rather be in an Apache.


As to the threat of helicopter in Twilight...I say go for the Hind! Nothing is more intimidating to players as to have the ominous shape of a Hind rising up over a hill and swooping towards them. Just watch Red Dawn again for a hint (even though they were only helo's made to look similar to Hinds, they did a good job of portraying them). Heck, on my adventure "Where Has All the Glory Gone" I have a Hind available for use if the GM feels it's necessary. It's always fun to include one of those monsters if you get the chance.


As to the chance the PCs have against a Hind; well, it depends on what they do and how many weapons the Hind has on it and back at base. The guns would probably be used, and rocket pods may be used if there are sufficient replacement rockets back at base. Rocket pods could really mess up the day of the PCs, as they will cover a lot of area and trees won't matter too much in that regards. It's like an Apache launching all of it's FFAR at one target. Bye-bye! Against the guns only, they might lose a person or two, or might be able to evade enough to find cover and hope the Hind doesn't have troops aboard! They'll likely only take the thing out if they have some heavy...and I mean HEAVY weapons. An SAM would work wonders, and give vindication to that one player that always seems to want to lug around the Stinger for adventures on end. Likely, the only way they can defeat it is to evade it and hope it can't stay over them for long because of the rarity of fuel.

********************

ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 11:01 PM Grimace, is your adventure online?

********************

kcdusk 12-01-2005, 11:15 PM The Hind is an evil looking thing .... i might make the PC's take a coolness under fire check when it first appears .... if they fail the roll then they are just standing there, staring at it disbeleavingly. Hehe.

********************

Targan 12-01-2005, 11:37 PM I would consider making the PCs roll for Coolness Under Fire for just hearing the thing coming! Remember the scene in Apocalypse Now when the Air Cav is approaching the VC village. Them little fellas scattered in all directions! It all depends, though... if a PC is a trained AA gunner and has a suitable weapon to engage a helicopter with, they may become inspired rather than panicked!


Early in the war APC/MICV and MBT crews would keep a regular air watch, say the commander sitting up in his hatch and/or the loader from their hatch, but by 2000 few crews would bother.

********************

Targan 12-02-2005, 01:36 AM The earlier Hind models (mainly the Hind-A) would be the easiest to keep flying, because large parts of the airframe and powerplant are shared with the Hip transport helicopter. If the Hind is lacking FLIR and such, it probably isn't a Hind-D, which has a traversing chin turret and helmet-mounted HUD targeting system for the weapons officer (both systems would require careful maintenance/spare parts/skilled technicians). If the terrain following radar system is malfunctioning, the helo would likely stay above nap of earth altitudes, reducing the chance it could sneak up on the PCs.


The Hind A has some kind of fixed AC (23mm?), and the Hind-E has a pair of heaviery ACs (30mm I think) mounted on the right hand side of the forward fuselage, fixed forward, so pumping a few rounds into the general vicinity of the PCs would be a viable tactic to flush them out.


All Hind varients have a passenger compartment behind the cockpit/s, with bubble windows and firing ports, so the helo could orbit the PCs' location while its infantry section inside rains small arms fire down on the target area designated by the pilot and whizzo.


A lumbering and non-agile helo like a Hind would be vulnerable to a variety of guided and unguided explosive ordnance, not just AA missiles. A Tank Breaker (Javelin?) would work just fine.


All Hind varients have reinforced cockpits and canopies, but the Hind A's side-by-side cockpit and canopy would probably only stop up to .50 cal (I think the range of visibility would be higher for the Hind-A and it would be easier for both pilots in a Hind-A to look straight down than the pilots of varients with front and back in-line cockpits). The front glass of other varients is rated to stop at least 20mm from memory. A heavy caliber sniper rifle's best target would probably be either the "Jesus nut" (the hub at the top of the rotor shaft) or the tail rotor area. Because a helo looking for infantry would have to maintain a low airspeed, if the tail rotor is damaged or destroyed the pilot would have little opportunity to disengage the engine and attempt an autorotational landing.


With large helos like the Hind, the weight of the fuel load makes a big difference to its lifting capacity, so aerial patrols would probably be conducted with less than a full fuel load on board to increase the aircraft's agility and reduce its fuel consumption. Therefore, if the PCs can duck and weave for long enough the helo would have to either withdraw or stand off to a safe distance, and dismount its infantry section to close with the enemy. If the PCs are inside the range of enemy artillery, the Hind's crew might well call a gun or mortar strike and act as aerial spotters.


If the PCs have any LAWs or similar weapons, they should have a go at taking that sucker down! Take inspiration from those Somali street fighters in Blackhawk Down. Even 40mm GL rounds would have a good chance of damaging a helo. The easiest weapon system to maintain on a Hind would have to be FFAR rocket pods, and you can bet the Hind's whizzo would not be shy about using them!

********************

copeab 12-02-2005, 03:13 AM If the PCs have any LAWs or similar weapons, they should have a go at taking that sucker down! Take inspiration from those Somali street fighters in Blackhawk Down. Even 40mm GL rounds would have a good chance of damaging a helo. The easiest weapon system to maintain on a Hind would have to be FFAR rocket pods, and you can bet the Hind's whizzo would not be shy about using them!


Weren't RPG-7's used to down some slow-moving Hinds in Afghanistan? Or was that another war or military (as opposed to urban) legend?


Mybe I'm remembering something from _Red Dawn_ that I thought was still suppressed ...


Brandon

********************

kcdusk 12-02-2005, 03:19 AM I think RPG-7s get a mention in Black Hawk Down, the book.


Any RPG would do the trick though, right, or even grenade launcher?

********************

Targan 12-02-2005, 03:20 AM For all intents and purposes an RPG-7 is a grenade launcher.

********************

copeab 12-02-2005, 03:25 AM Any RPG would do the trick though, right, or even grenade launcher?


I'm fairly sure a 40mm HE grenade hitting near the main or tail rotor assembly would give the Hind a bad day. The problem is hitting the right spot.


Oh, as to the person who mentioned that rockets might be scarce for the Hind's underwing ordnance, no theoretical reason a helicopter can't drop iron (unguided) bombs instead.


Brandon

********************

Targan 12-02-2005, 03:37 AM A HEDP (shaped charge) GL round would probably do the trick on the tail boom of a hind, as it would project a jet of plasma into the tail boom and have a good chance of destroying the drive shaft for the rear rotor. A HE round might penetrate the skin from the contact explosion, but the fragments it would generate probably wouldn't have much effect. A hit on any of the tail rotor blades would be another matter however, because you only have to damage or remove one blade and the rotor assembley will vibrate its self to pieces within a short period of time. The main rotor blades on Hind-B and later versions are generally pretty resiliant, have extremely durable leading edges, and if penetrated tend to feather but maintain structural integrity. Hind-As have the same rotor assembley as Hip transport helos and come apart nicely.

********************

ReHerakhte 12-02-2005, 05:29 AM G'Day All,

Some more comments in regards to the Hind.


Soviet Hind crews called it "Gorbach", Russian for Hunchback while some circles of the Soviet military hierachy called it the Sturmovik helicopter (after the Il-2 Sturmovik attack plane of WW2). The Afghans called it the "Devil's Chariot".


If the group is in a forest, what type of forest is it, hardwood or softwood?

If the answer is hardwood, then don't worry about specifically targeting the troops on the ground. Even the 12.7mm DShK of the Hind-A will damage the trees and cause wood splinters to spray around the area. The group not only has to worry about incoming rounds but also fragments of wood filling the air every time a tree gets hit. The 12.7mm YakB Gatling gun on later models will make tree splinters even more of a problem and the twin 23mm cannon on the Hind-E just doubles the carnage.

This is also appropriate for any large rock outcrops and even wooden or concrete buildings.


The troop compartment has inward opening window panes and pintle mounted clamps to fix an AK rifle in position so that the troops can fire their weapons while in the helo. This means the Hind can do a 'drive-by' on your ass with anything up to 4 AK rifles (or RPK light machineguns) per side.

Unfortunately, this clamp places the main body of the AK outside the window and thus the magazine is outside the window - don't drop a mag when you reload, you won't get it back.


The Hind is rated for carrying ATGWs, unguided rockets in pods, 250kg iron bombs and FAE bombs and the Soviets used such devices during their war in Afghanistan. They can also carry auxiliary fuel tanks on the stub wings (anything up to four tanks).


ChalkLine's comment about it not being able to hover has raised some eyebrows. The Hind has a real problem with slow and low flying and handles quite poorly. In nap of the earth flying it will never be a match for Western helos (that are designed specifically with low level flight in mind) but at high speed and higher altitude it gains a lot of manouevrability. Unfortunately for the Soviets, they concieved the idea that the Hind should attack by moving forward and move forward at great speed (just like the Il-2 Sturmovik) - wonderful for open grasslands where it can see for miles but absolute crap if clumps of trees, houses, chimney stacks, bridges, pylons, power lines etc. are in its flightpath (e.g Middle and Western Europe) and also obscuring its forward and sideways view. It has to have speed or altitude and if it has to go high, this obviously makes it vulnerable to AAA and SAM fire. Soviet doctrine did not cover firing helo weapons from the hover, the Hind should always be moving either at high or low altitude but always at speed. Because they specifically do not utilize the hover for weapons firing, this has probably given rise to the idea that the Hind cannot hover.


A single Hind is a sitting duck for a well-motivated team with even a minor selection of the appropriate tools if they can get it to go 'low and slow' but Soviet doctrine is for Hinds to operate in pairs at the very least and usually in groups of four where they perform the "Circle of Death" - they move around the target maintaining a circle and when one Hind achieves an attack solution, they fire upon the target and move off (always maintaining the circle), all the while the waiting Hinds are keeping an eye out for any threats or other targets and talking to each other and the attacker. And they always keep moving, making best use of speed and altitude to make them harder to hit.

They have a max speed of about 335kph but an economical cruise speed of only 217kph. They are limited if given a max combat load to a radius of only 160km operating range and even when not fitted with a full weapons load and carrying four external tanks the radius is only 288km.


RPGs can and have brought down helicopters as the comments about BlackHawk Down have mentioned and this tactic has been used since the Vietnam War. One of my friends during my high school years lost his father in Vietnam, he was a RAN Chief Petty Officer helicopter loadmaster, part of a RAN contingent operating with the US Army. He was killed when the UH-1 he was in was struck by an RPG-2 that impacted on the cabin ceiling after entering through the open hatch. The explosion shredded the gearbox IIRC, the Huey crashed in flames.

You won't be able to pull that trick on the Hind as the troop cabin ceiling is quite well seperated from drivetrain components and even the RPG-7 doesn't have quite enough grunt to be a threat, but if you could get a TOW or Milan in there...

The Afgans found that the Hind could be downed by also targeting other critical parts - the national symbol, the Red Star, was painted over the area that contained an important oil pump, if they could hit the centre of the star, they might hit the oil pump and cause some part of the drivetrain to cease up. Apparently this was done once with a .303 SMLE.

Don't bother trying to hit the driveshaft for the tail rotor with HEAT, it's too small and armoured in certain areas and the plasma jet would stand a good chance of being disipated by the time it traversed the cavity in the tail. Hit the tail rotor or the engines themselves.


Don't bother trying to hit the pilot or weapons officer with anything less than heavy weapons, they sit in titanium buckets but any hit with HE would probably scare the crap out of them.

The best way to kill a Hind if you're PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry) is get it low to the ground at slow speed and hit the engine compartments or tail rotor with everything you've got. Or, if you have some good ATGWs, do like Targan mentioned.


And that's enough dribbling from me!

Cheers,

Kevin

********************

Targan 12-02-2005, 05:35 AM Thanks, Kev, my memory was failing me on that one!


As additional information for Blackrider's aircraft stats, he lists the MV-22 Osprey has being armed with an M2HB at the rear cargo ramp, but when the USMC added its self to those branches of the US military expressing an interest in adopting the aircraft, the designers commissioned development on two possible weapons systems to be fitted in fixed forward facing mounts in the Osprey's nose. Both were .50 cal rotary barrel weapons, one with six barrels and one with three. In RL the three barreled weapon was the preferred option but as far as I know ended up being dropped from the test production phase. I suspect that in T:2000, the system would have been included for USMC Ospreys. In any case, both systems really exist and are ready for inclusion should any other new aircraft require them.


Edit: Just read PMulcahy's write up on the .50 gatling system on his T2K site, and realise you all know all about it. Sorry. Cool weapon though, eh?

********************

DeaconR 12-02-2005, 09:01 AM I'm kind of sticking with TW2000 canon in that avgas is rare and precious, so helicopters are kind of rare. Since we've been playing my campaign for about a year and a half it is like a miracle to my players that they have access to a Bell 222. However they have to be careful about when they fly it, and they have used up 2/3 of their fuel on just two missions. They're hoping to find more at some point. Right now it is hidden on a small island.


The one time my players encountered a Hind I was really using it to drive them towards another encounter that was the kick start for the adventure. I think you have made a good choice, kcdusk, in chosing your instrument, as it were.

********************

Grimace 12-02-2005, 11:21 AM Grimace, is your adventure online?


Yes, it is. Sadly I have yet to finish it, but most of it is up there. You can find it at http://www.reocities.com/grimace997/t2k.html


If you have questions about it, I'd be glad to answer what I can (though all of my notes on the adventure are packed away right now).

********************

Targan 12-03-2005, 06:33 AM My memory has been jogged of a T2K scenario I ran in high school (maybe 17 years ago?) in which a patrol of French Foreign Legionaires moving through mountainous country in the NW interior of Iran saw a Hind approaching them, flying down a valley at around the same altitude as the players.


The patrol leader, a French officer, ordered the group to hide, but one of the legionaires failed his coolness under fire and panicked, lost his footing, and slid/rolled several hundred feet down a scree slope. Naturally, the Hind's crew spotted the unfortunate legionaire, and the rest of the adventure became a cat and mouse hunt as the players fled down into the valley in an attempt to reach thick scrub and therefore some cover.


One character stood his ground to fire a GL round at the Hind, but suffered a misfire and was shot through the lung for his trouble. He spent the rest of the adventure being stretchered. Another PC damaged the Hind with a LAW of some description, but the helo crew had called for reinforcements, and the Hind's infantry section and a Hip-load more Russian Air Assault troopers relentlessly tracked the party. The adventure ended with a nasty firefight at a rocky outcropping, where the PCs decided to make a heroic last stand rather than abandon their wounded man. They became French toast.


Despite the game ending in a PC massacre, the players seemed happy to have fought the good fight.

********************

kcdusk 12-03-2005, 01:08 PM Now thats entertainment!

********************

Targan 12-05-2005, 12:33 AM In my current campaign the closed community on Roosevelt Island had a well-stored but non-functional Bell Longranger helo which had been partially retro-fitted as a Kiowa Warrior. Po and his party spent some time on Roosevelt Island after they coerced/threatened the community leaders there into giving them permission to enter their territory, but the relationship suffered from suspicion on both sides, especially after the Roosevelt Island government discovered that Po was storing explosives in their territory, not far from inhabited buildings. The relationship improved a bit after Po started trading high tech salvage with the Islanders, and assisting their gunsmiths with parts and ammo, then Po moved back to threats and standover tactics once he had confirmation that the Norfolk enclave and the 78th ID would be sending him reinforcements to secure the gold reserves once their location had been confirmed. Po swapped some mortars and HMGs, along with a guarantee that the Roosevelt Island community would be allowed to maintain its autonomy and equipment after the military regained control of NYC, for the island's helo (the islanders had very little fuel for it anyway and were unlikely to have been able to return it to an airworthy condition).


Weeks earlier, Po's group had befriended a fortified village whose prized treasure was a crashed RH-66 Comanche. The Helo's pilot had survived the crash but had been crippled and his health slowly deteriorated before he died, but had assisted the village in reorganising its militia and defences. Following the pilot's death the villagers relegated him to honoured martyr status, and used the helo's main cannon, fitted to a cherry picker to raise it above the town's wall, as their main deterrant/weapon. Po bartered ammo for the cannon and a bunch of captured small arms in return for the helo's remaining POL load and unbroken avionics.


Po's expanded SOG 1 included several helo pilots, a helo mechanic and an avionics technician, so he used the Commanche's parts to return the Longranger to airworthiness. The Longranger was then used for a LALO para-drop conducted by the XO, Jones, and the SEAL Team's senior NCO, a Master CPO, into the Central Park reservoir under cover of darkness. The SEALs remained underwater until they confirmed the location of the gold reserves (previously located by one of SOG Alpha's attached ISA agents), then E&E'd undetected out of Central Park.


At the end of the last game session, Po and his pilot were flying the Longranger above the air traffic control tower at Newark Airport during a huge fight with the vampire coven and its minions, and was trying to on-load several of his scout team's wounded.

********************

Targan 12-05-2005, 01:06 AM Prior to Po's acquisition of the Bell Longranger, his team used a Fliedermaus gyrocopter as their sole aerial asset, but his original Chief Pilot (USAF Eagle driver Lt John Johnson, callsign Renegade) was not keen to fly it as although he was qualified on several helos, he had not flown an autogyro before and did not trust it's airworthiness. His suspicions were well-founded, and the aircraft suffered two malfunctions during flights, the first an electrical fire in the main fuse box (caused by less than perfect retro-fitting of an M-214 minigun in the nose), and the second a bearing failure on the main rotor axle.


The electrical fire was fun, because Po was in the front seat at the time and had to unharness, climb partially out of the cockpit and lower himself partly upside down past his seat, and attempt to extinguish the fire and swap fuses around in the dark, while the engine repeatedly stopped and the craft lost altitude towards the waiting ocean next to New Jersey.


The rotor shaft bearing failure occurred after Po and his pilot had repeatedly straffed a pirate vessel which had just unloaded a cargo of slaves on the Bronx shoreline, and caused the gyro to vibrate and shudder violently at anything over an airspeed just higher than the aircraft's stall speed.

********************

kcdusk 12-11-2005, 02:52 AM RPG's, Grenade launchers and such ... would you make them one level more difficult to hit that the range modifiers because helecopters are that much harder to get a "lock on"?


Ground to Air missiles i am assuming are fire and forget and so they would be your standard to hit procedure (from memory its easy or Asset x 2 i think). Is there any need to make hitting helecopters harder than that (unless they are highly manovouragle or jinxing around)? Using a Ground to Air missile in this way is really just using it in the role it was made for eh?

********************

kcdusk 12-18-2005, 04:35 PM Why doesnt the Nautical and Aviation handbook give either


a) armour values for helecopters (or planes), or

b) accuracy modifiers (like RF) - like pmulchys site does?


It just seems to me like a plane or hele is a vehicle like a boat or car or tank (which all have RF & armour numbers). Why the difference? (different authors maybe???)

********************

ReHerakhte 12-19-2005, 01:48 AM Why doesnt the Nautical and Aviation handbook give either


a) armour values for helecopters (or planes), or

b) accuracy modifiers (like RF) - like pmulchys site does?


It just seems to me like a plane or hele is a vehicle like a boat or car or tank (which all have RF & armour numbers). Why the difference? (different authors maybe???)

At the time of writing they possibly didn't think it would be important enough because you only have to hit one vulnerable section of an aircraft/helo and there's a very good chance it's going to be out of the fight... after all, who wants to be a passenger in something falling from 300m above ground level!


When I first got that book, I got the impression that the aircraft were not there for Player use but for Referee use (i.e. as aggressor aircraft against the PCs), there are no useful small utility aircraft in the book at all from what I remember, they are all combat aircraft and the helo section is only better by virtue of the fact that most of the combat helos they list are multi-use utility models. There have been a few comments in the past that the book felt like an afterthought rather than a fully fleshed out sourcebook. There's no skills listed for any aircraft combat other than firing missiles IIRC and air-to-air combat is probably something they didn't want to delve into except as a story enhancement tool - mind you, that's simply an opinion on my part and that thought prompts me to beleive that there's no modifiers listed to hit aircraft (such as those Paul Mulcahy lists on his site) because aircraft were a minor consideration, after all, you're playing groundpounders not flyboys!


Cheers,

Kevin

********************

DeaconR 12-20-2005, 11:39 AM What Kevin said.


I'd add that the aviation in the actual modules seems invariably to be in the hands of others, most likely hostile, and that it is mostly used for dramatic purposes or to emphasize enemy power. An exception is "King's Ransom" but your players are not supposed to have casual access to the aviation assigned to the battalion of the 101st that is in the area of operations.


In my game I more or less let the players have access to a helicopter ( a civilian model 222) in order to convey how important their mission is as well as the regard in which they are held. However, it is also because by this time I know that my players won't abuse the privilege.

********************