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#1
01-23-2010, 10:20 PM
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1'st Polish Tank Army
I just found my original copy of the Death of a Division and Escape from Kalisz info sheet and was wondering what happened to the 1'st Polish Tank Army?
Second question ... it stated that the 1'st Polish Tank Army was at Pila - yet it also said that US 5'th Infantry Division spent a week at Torun distilling fuel. Why was no action taken by the 1'st Polish Tank Army to get rid of the threat to its rear?
__________________
************************************* Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge?? 
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#2
01-23-2010, 10:45 PM
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The intel handout provided is rather inaccurate and represented only what Nato intelligence thought was the truth.
Also, units don't stay on one place usually. There are also discrepancies due to the various dates used - some information is as at 01JUL00, other info as at after the 5th was destroyed, etc.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#3
01-24-2010, 12:28 PM
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One has to remember what appears on that list is suppose to be intel sheet that the players are suppose to have access too.
Many of the inaccuracy can be explained by the fact that most of the material the GM doesn't have control over what the player see. Maybe it was a way to steer the GM to mix things up on the location of any unit at any time from the starting point on. Don't remember how far out the hand out listed, but I don't think the intel puke thought units in Western Soviet Union as much of threat. In fact, I don't even remember much being said about Hungary units. It gave enough information so hopefully the troops wouldn't stumble upon major units. Either way once the survivors of the Division were on their own, most of it was little use to them. It why some had made it to Warsaw and were working for the Black Baron, while other headed south toward the area control by the 14th MRD and 8th MRD. Two things that seem to be important, was there wasn't telling who was to the north or the west from the hand out and how up to date it was/wasn't at the time.
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#4
01-24-2010, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
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#5
01-24-2010, 04:43 PM
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Regardless of the truth, the intel handout was woefully outdated and totally inaccurate even when first printed. A useful tool amongst a box of a hundred other tools, but that's about it.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#6
01-24-2010, 04:55 PM
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It was designed simply as a Player handout, to add flavour to the game rather than as a highly accurate account of what was going on. It was to add impetus for the PCs to strike out on their own plus give the GM some leeway in putting badguys in various places to harass the PCs.
I think far too much realworld value is being placed on an item that was simply included to add flavour.
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#7
01-24-2010, 06:00 PM
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Yeah, I think it was purposely created to show how much/little information that can/should be exchange between several levels of the command chain. It is nothing that far fetch in real life when the boot on the ground or fly jockeys find out too late that the intel had enough of it wrong to make thing look like a world biggest cluster....
Think about it, the German initial intelligence report before there invasion of the Soviet Union had underestimated the Soviet Military size, besides underestimating the number of troops they would be able to mobilized. Lot of this hand out was to get the players steered into two directions as well as give the GM an open hand to move units where they see fit. Like most of the game there are parts we can all agree on to disagree with. It is a game, as players depending on your real life experience you may feel some thing are total unrealistic, while other who don't have may not know what is realistic or not. It is fun at time to get into the heads of the people who had made the decisions and why or why not?
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#8
01-24-2010, 07:42 PM
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Back when we were on exercise, even in the bigger ones, anyone below Battalion HQ was lucky to know more than the identity of the battalion we faced. Which Brigade, Division, Army etc they were a part of was almost always a complete mystery.
The average soldier on the ground simply doesn't need to know much more that that anyway. It might be interesting, but it's certainly not all that relevant unless you're in command of a sizable unit yourself...
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#9
01-24-2010, 09:15 PM
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For most troops you are quite correct it doesn't really matter who you are facing. Battalion/Regimental/Brigade HQs would only be interested in who they are opposing so they can sent as accurate as possible reports to Division/Corps/Army HQs so they could get a larger picture of what was going on.
The thing even in WWII, Korea, and almost every war since someone had done something that the well inform enemy hadn't expected. Catching many of the grunts who are on the broken end of the fighting unprepared. Most of the time Brigade and Divisional Commanders are worried of nothing more than the counterpart unit to their front. With that said, I can see such documents down to Battalion/Task Force level to give the local commander some idea due to the fluid nature of the modern battlefield. For this operation in particular, I can see why they would issue such a document. There was no telling how the Pact Forces would react, and all commands were trying to be made aware of last known positions of as many units as possible. As the 5th and 8th Mechanized moved far in advance of the XI Corps maybe the Divisional Commander felt maybe it was better to inform even Company level commanders of the picture they had of the world too. Especially if something happen where a company was isolated and separate from the Division much like 2nd Marine Division was separated from the XI Corps earlier in the Operations. Like has been stated many of the GMs wouldn't realize that even squad/platoon/company level units wouldn't have this much information. If they had been told what Regiment/Division opposing them would be all the useful information that could expect from the intel units/intel staff at Division level. I think it was include as tool for GMs to help guide player groups to areas where there were modules. Like I have state many people who ended up playing this game weren't people who had previous or current military experience. Armchair Generals seem to alway have much more intel than the grunt in the field. Similar items have always been used in RPGs to help GM control their campaigns. Especially new GM/DMs who need extra help until they are comfortable for it flow.
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#10
01-24-2010, 09:50 PM
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The intel report may have been hurredly distrubuted to as many people as possible in the last few hours. Once it was clear the 5th was doomed, this sort of intel suddenly becomes very useful to everyone with the idea of not being caught.
Even badly outdated intel is often better than no intel at all.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#11
01-28-2010, 08:07 PM
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__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
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#12
02-01-2010, 03:49 PM
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#13
02-02-2010, 06:40 AM
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Could be, or shortly there after the offensive started. If they hadn't defected or turn to local militia before, they didn't see the XI Corps as a threat, but felt the German III was.
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#14
02-02-2010, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
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