Securing your position...

[kalos72]

As some of you may know, my campaign that I am working on is based in NYC. Staten Island/Long Island and Manhattan specifically.

After reading all these logs about how certain divisions cant hold the area they have against marauders and that they are losing precious farm lands, it made me wonder, how do you secure your farmland when we are talking about 100-1000's of acres?

I supposes you could build a wall but with this large an area we are talking about 4-8-16 miles of wall for some. Not only that but you would need to patrol or place guard posts on those 16 miles too. Say you place one every 100yards - thats 200-300 posts - thats 600 men - for 2-3 shifts - thats 1800 men to just watch the wall.

Then the question that bothers me most, considering the area I am looking at is listed at almost half a million population according to canon, how do you defend against a swarm of 60000 people trying to run you over to take your food? Remember The Last Submarine tells tales of that happening and wiping out entire military bases.

So considering the concept of a large cantonment of military personal trying to produce food for some large population center, whats to keep that population from just saying "screw you guys" and taking what they want?

The only thing I could come up with is that perhaps if the local population knows you are there only chance then maybe they would work with you instead of against you. Or that perhaps the tales of walls of people over running a base were back when people were still localized and desperate. After a few years the local population has dwindled to only what the area can feed, if not very poorly.

I dont know... :/

[Targan]

Be prepared for anything but try to get some intel too. Random recon patrols and listening posts could be valuable tools.

[Cdnwolf]

Terror works well. Look at all these military dictators currently in power and find out how they do it. Brutalize and beat down the population... promise them food but keep it to a barely liveable amount so that they are too weak to revolt... and kidnap/recruit the strongest and promise them luxuries beyond their dreams to be on your side.

[chico20854]

There is no way to secure that much land against such large numbers in the long run. The least bad option is to farm someplace less populated. Bring food in to NYC if you need it, or else get food that doesn't need acres to produce - fish! IMHO the population of the NYC area would, by 2001, have adjusted itself to what can be grown, gathered/scavenged or traded (no mention of food imports into the NYC area, but who knows), probably at a level of less than 500k.

[fightingflamingo]

small fields might be fortified (former baseball fields, etc.). best option I can see is to actively sweep (e.g. patrol the surrounding area), and build berms around the immediate farmed site, with fighting positions around the berm... best option I think would be active patrolling a given radius around the farm to protect it and keep the unwanted away so that they would be unaware of the farms existance.

[kalos72]

So then when the 228th and CIVGOV are trying to feed the population of Maryland, how do they do it? They must have large tracts of land some where no?

Or perhaps this is where securing the region from marauders and just letting the locals worry bout farming for themselves perhaps taking a tithe of the food, turns out to be best.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kalos72

As some of you may know, my campaign that I am working on is based in NYC. Staten Island/Long Island and Manhattan specifically.

After reading all these logs about how certain divisions cant hold the area they have against marauders and that they are losing precious farm lands, it made me wonder, how do you secure your farmland when we are talking about 100-1000's of acres?

I supposes you could build a wall but with this large an area we are talking about 4-8-16 miles of wall for some. Not only that but you would need to patrol or place guard posts on those 16 miles too. Say you place one every 100yards - thats 200-300 posts - thats 600 men - for 2-3 shifts - thats 1800 men to just watch the wall.

Then the question that bothers me most, considering the area I am looking at is listed at almost half a million population according to canon, how do you defend against a swarm of 60000 people trying to run you over to take your food? Remember The Last Submarine tells tales of that happening and wiping out entire military bases.

So considering the concept of a large cantonment of military personal trying to produce food for some large population center, whats to keep that population from just saying "screw you guys" and taking what they want?

The only thing I could come up with is that perhaps if the local population knows you are there only chance then maybe they would work with you instead of against you. Or that perhaps the tales of walls of people over running a base were back when people were still localized and desperate. After a few years the local population has dwindled to only what the area can feed, if not very poorly.

I dont know... :/

If you want create small fortified enclave that could provide surplus food, there is only one way - fishing. You should find a small island or waterfront area that you can fortify. Minefieds, walls, clear field for machineguns etc.

Israel even have tradition of "fishing kibbutzs" and usually they were located deep within hostile territory. If you cant protect fields you can always try protect small fishing harbour?

One finish module (Kööpenhaminaan) even has a "micro nation" - Lauttasaari. Fishing, trade, cottage industry and good site for keeping the hordes away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauttasaari

[kalos72]

Thats one of the reasons I am running this on Staten Island and Long Island - islands.

But you cant live on fish alone and feeding a population of 100k isnt going to work with fishing alone.

The way I am thinking, the Island combined have something like 2000 square miles of land and being both ISLANDS, relatively easy to secure.

[Cdnwolf]

Why does the movie Escape from New York or Resident Evil 2 come to mind?

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Thats one of the reasons I am running this on Staten Island and Long Island - islands.

But you cant live on fish alone and feeding a population of 100k isnt going to work with fishing alone.

The way I am thinking, the Island combined have something like 2000 square miles of land and being both ISLANDS, relatively easy to secure.

Trade? Canned fish should sell quite well in protein hungry world? Even now there is countries that cannot grow vegetables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_Iceland

[kalos72]

Besides the fact I am not sure 'canning' in the T2k world on a large level is an option, I am more interested in the idea of tactical defense.

Any other suggestion other then to just throw a wall up and put people with guns on em? Listening posts, barbed wire and such are an obvious addition to that.

[Trooper]

Some ideas about defended areas.

http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/C...llage_Defenses

[pmulcahy11b]

Anyone interested in this should research Special Forces fortified hamlets in the Vietnam War.

[kalos72]

Thats some good information to work off guys..thank you.

[jester]

Here are some ways,

1.) Elevated platforms like tree stands every 300m with marksmen with scoped rifles to snipe anyone who enters.

2.) Location, if its in a box canyon, a isthmus or similiar area you only have 1 real direction to worry about.

3.) Trenches or a moat, also used for irrigation, but it makes a decent vbarrier to intruders, couple with trip flares, punji sticks or even tincans on wire to alert you of an intruder where the marksmen mentioned above can zero in.

4.) Make it required everyone has their own home garden. Say everyone has a garden in their freind and backyards for vegetables that produce a high yeild.

5.) Put your larger field inside the town, with the dwellers homes forming a wall or ring around your main field, and they also include the mandatory personal garden of high yeild crops.

6.) Small bunkers two men, semi raised at key terrain areas to observe the aproach routes to the dfields. Remember, most fields are flat and open so, they also make a very nice kill zone.

7.) Cover the fields with machineguns, and the above mentioned marksmen to deal with tresspassers. Again, its open ground and who is going to be able to cross 100, 200 or 300 or more meters of open ground covered by machinegun fire and riflemen and survive?

[Abbott Shaull]

Look at the Free City of Krakow their was map of the defensive positions they had their.

Research Vietnam fire bases and as Paul pointed out how Special Forces would set up protection of particular hamlets.

Jester made some good points too. Targan made some points too.

One thing to remember you will have large detail on protection/patrol duties.

I would point out one thing, a Military units wouldn't be supporting a large population with food, it would be the other way around with the Military providing protection/police services/engineering services and so on to the local population. Regardless if the community was willingly or forced by the military unit command....

[kalos72]

If anyone can find some links to information about these hamlets, all I keep getting is vague references but nothing with details.

Thanks guys...

[Legbreaker]

What Jester said and add as many patrols as you can as frequently as you can covering as far out as you can.
Keep the "enemy" at a distance at all times and give yourself time to move reserves into position if a threat is detected. Meet the "enemy" as far away as possible and don't be afraid to use deadly force to drive them back.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by kalos72

If anyone can find some links to information about these hamlets, all I keep getting is vague references but nothing with details.

Thanks guys...

This should help. And if i remember right there was Challenge mag adventure named "Westward ..." where the local sheriff had been serving in CIDG program in Vietnam.

http://www.history.army.mil/BOOKS/Vi...-23/90-23C.htm

[Ramjam]

When I lived in Cornwall about 10 years ago I sat down one weekend and tried to plan out if I was placed in the command of the defence of the village I lived in, how would I go about doing it. I came up with quite a long list of things to consider, including :

1) What man-power would I need to secure to the village.
2) What man-power would be available.
3) What ordnance would be needed and how easy would it be to obtain.
4) How available would fresh and clean drinking water be.
5) Was there any land that could be used for crops etc.
6) Was the village on a major road/rail etc (I know maybe not a major problem but there again if you don't wait everybody knowing you have a tiny piece of heaven in a world of hell).

And many more of the question already posted in previous posts.

I also considered if the village was not suitable to be secured or the man-power requirments were just to big, was there another location in the area (say within 50 miles) that could be used.

In the end I worked out that my village would be a pain to secure due to be in a open location, on a semi major road and with no local water supply (ie a river or lake etc).

But I did think about a little village down the road which was right on the coast with a tiny harbour in a quite valley. Depending on the number of people the village had to support I thought this was a much suitable and defendable location.

[Jason]

You have to have some farmers on the payroll, locals if possible, and a civilian workforce to engage in the numerous time-consuming steps needed to grow large amount of crops.

I always liked the Stout Yeomanry concept from the sample encounters section of the book. It is an example of a farm that can be found anywhere except an area that is devastated. It says an average farm consists of 20-40 hectares of land, centered on the pre-war buildings with added fortifications surrounded by an earthwork. The example in the book has 22 civilians including 13 adults. The barn, grain bins, cattle enclosure, and other animal shelters are all inside the perimeter.

Added military patrols, small contingents of soldiers, and beefed up perimeter security forces should secure most areas in non-harvest seasons, but none of that is crucial to long term sustainability.

The Greek city-states marched to war almost exclusively during Harvest Season so they could seize or destroy each others grain reserves. Their three staples were wine, wheat, and olive oil, and it turns out that grape vines and olive trees are hardy enough to survive a quick burn, and also resist being harvested quickly. Wheat on the other hand, is easily harvested by anyone with basic tools, can be trampled by horses or be burned down with ease.

Post-apoc crops are going to consist of wheat/corn/soy, potatoes/yams, and vegetables/fruits. Similar to modern America, there will be a Harvest Season, and that is when every marauder scum from 3 counties will be menacing the farmland. It is going to take a concentrated military force and a large civilian workforce to get in a significant amount of those crops.

A smart military commander would make/get a detailed survey of all the farmland in question. There are going to be numerous creeks, irrigation ditches, rivers, lakes, marshes, etc, that will make great natural barriers. Any farmland out side this broad natural perimeter gets scrapped, and the farm families in those areas are given support to move inside the secured area.

Next, enhance those natural barriers, build new barriers where they are needed, set up check-points on all roads (or better yet just blow the bridges), add listening post on your most vulnerable approaches and train up some CIDG. Now, some strong outposts are needed. Convert a handful of small towns/villages into fortifications if available (much easier), otherwise some type of fortifications should be built. These need earthworks that are high and wide, and several reinforced strongholds inside (potentially huge project).

Come harvest time, you are going to need troops to guard your civilian workers, and several rapid reaction forces. Use the CIDG to free up your least vulnerable garrison troops. The Rapid Reaction Groups (RRGs) will the key to defeating a determined attack by an either an organized marauder group, or a huge mass of starving humanity. The RRG’s need to be fast enough to get around your defended farmland and well armed and trained so they can meet multiple threats. Did you A-team some busses and boats? You did secure those old junkyards right?

Ok, there are two credible threats, the Marauders and the Starving masses. Expect marauders to be very clever; maybe they have a train, or an old steam tugboat, or some Mad Max semi’s, or a howitzer, that they use to project force. Marauders in T2K usually have some means of carrying away their booty, and a large-scale raid must be supported. Your RRG’s need some kind of hammers, like anti-tank weapons to pound those toys into fiery masses of negative morale modifiers on the evil invaders. You also need some snipers to pick off the leadership elements. They hate when you do that. Clever Marauders will also try everything to infiltrate your workforce. Better get some Secret Police.

If the Starving Mass of Humanity were clever, it wouldn’t exist. Human wave attacks are not unheard of in T2K, so you might as well knock together some quad 50’s, and keep those M214 6-pac’s greased up and very well supplied with ammo. No one wants to mow down thousands of pitiful civilians, but if they are coming right at you like that, what are you going to do?

Worst case scenario in either attack is that all the crops are burned/destroyed in the fighting or out of spite, so you need multiple RRG’s that can hit very hard individually, or be used as a group as needed. Enemies large enough to attack your agricultural base will usually back down after suffering serious losses in a concentrated counter-attack.

So, do you have the resources to secure, establish, maintain, and defend a fortified agricultural base that is large enough to sustain itself?

[weswood]

Probably been said before but:

Fire bases spread around the perimeter, close together as pssible depending on manpower.

Aggressive search and destroy patrols.

Small recon patrols further out from the village.

Farm workers given basic training and firearms, required to carry weapons while working fields.

[jester]

And lets not forget my irrigation trenches that also act as a form of moat or obstacle. Make them deep enough that it is difficult to get out of, wide enough to keep vehicles from crossing or other vehicles without bridging, and of course fill them with water to act as a moat and further deterent, but also to keep fish in and to provide water to your fields, you can also add stakes or punji type sticks.

That I think would do alot to keep the starving masses from getting to your fields, or at least slow them up long enough where your reaction forces can be deployed and deal with them.

Remember, a mob is like a herd and if they are rushing for your crops it will be like a stampede. The first few may reach the edge of the trench and probably go over. But, the rest will stop, they stop, they actualy think and move. If they stop you can rain down fire on them well that will cause them to further scatter and break up.

And if you had LP/OPs outside your trench/moat perimeter then you can even harrass them before they reach your perimeter and potentialy disuade them or at least some of them. At the very least, the LP/OP can give a warning of a force, its composition and direction which would be invaluable to the reaction force. And your LP/OP can be nothing more than a guy or two with binoculars and some carier pigeons, its that easy.

Its always good to have choke points or other obstacles manmade or natural to break up an enemies advance, their route of aproach and coordination. A good one is, ifthe enemy is comming via a road, have an area of the road that is sunken that is easily flooded which will bog them or their vehicels and mounts down causing much more effort. A high area with rocks or logs ready to roll down on the attackers, discuraging them, eliminating a few, damaging some of their vehicles or mounts and blocking or at least creating an obstacle on the road/aproach path.

Those are some of the things one can do to disuade unwanted guests.


I would also add SEVERAL excavated trenches or pits on narrow areas. Each with a bridge YOU built. When you are not using it, the bridge is taken up, or at least the boards making the roadbed, how many of them is an attacker or a mob going to negotiate or build to get to you? And if they are that determined, how long will it take them to get to your enclave? And what would you be able to do to them to further convince them before they gat to your village?

Another idea is to make the ground of your field uneven. add rocks, boulders, tiny trenches about 2 feet wide and a foot deep, small berms of a foot tall. The crops will cover them, so when the forces try to attack well their force in like a human wave will be broken, some groups will slow due to the obstacles and lag behind. And you will have ALOT of injured ankles and banged shins further discouraging people.

Another thing to add, make a perimeter of thorn bushes and brambles, blackberrys are good since they can be used for food as well as a obstacle and almost improvised barbed wire.

Just some ideas to help defend an enclave.

[kalos72]

Some good points...

Question - Guard towers / bunkers as needed but on a rubble wall or trench line? Which would be easier to defend?

[jester]

It depends on the terrain and climate as well as the threat. But hey. all of the above!

As the others have said "firebases" eh not so much a firebase as a fixed fortified position or strong point with a rifle fire team or MG team.

Maybe a position atop a rise or hilltop.

And then what are essentialy men in trees or deer stands with sniper rifles to pick off solo folks who would enter the fields. If you have men in trees, they stand out much less than an actual tower. Although a tower or two can be a good thing inside the field, thus they can extend their control in so many directions.

As for the bunkers, on hills, or even rises made from rock and rubble but definitely on high ground.

Now, if you put a berm around the exposed portion of the field, then a trenchline on the military crest if best with firing positiions along its length, figure three firing positions per man so the enemy can keep wondering where they will fire from. I am an advocate of the berm because it offers cover and concealment to not just your defenders, it also allows movement of the men as they go from one position to another, like the 1 man to 3 firing positions mentioned, where does the enemy aim, where will you fire from.

It also blocks the enemy from seeing what is happening in your village or your fields to see what you have, or who is where doing what.

And then on the outside of this berm you can build your canal providing a supply of water and adding an additional obstacle a moat, and you can also fish from it.

For Berms and Ditches, how long willl it take for a man to dig a section? The dirt excavated from the moat/ditch becomes the berm, so it does two things at once. One person should be able to dig a good 10X10 section in a day without much issue.

I would also think that small hamlets of a half dozen or more huts or other dwellings can be made along the edge of the fields at regular intervals. These initialy would have the berm and trench and stakes for their own defenses. And as they are able and time permits they expand the trench and berm and moat system to connect each cluster of dwellings until they do encircle the farm field. And by farm field I am talking of the communities LARGE field of grain or potatoes or peas and beans, as stated in an earlier post each familiy would have their own garden for other crops.

The key to these clusters is that they will be within rifle range of one another so one cluster can fire on attackers of other clusters from the safety of their own compound, basicaly each cluster can provide supporting fire for the cluster on their left and right.

And as stated, toss in a machinegun or rifle team atop a hill that has a comanding view of the area and maybe a couple less elevated positions but still strong points with a handful of sniper teams roaming around and heck even one or two fire teams roaming able to hit the attackers from any ddirection as well as harassing their rear and flanks you would be able to withstand most marauders as well as any mass wave of refugees. As for orghanized equiped military force that is another storey, but you would surely bloody them greatly and in the end, would it be worth it to them to take your community considering they would suffer a good loss of men and material. And such losses could result in their inability hold power or defend against any new group or force who would challenge them.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

All of the information presented here is very good. However, how do you translate all of that to a built-up city environment such as New York City, where Kalos has his game set? The principles are the same but the execution is different in a city.
Not a lot of land immediately available for agriculture, lots of highrise buildings for observation of you by the enemy, those same highrise buildings obstructing your line of sight, lots of underground areas available for people to hide in or sneak up on you, lots of buildings/roads/tunnels channelling you as much as they do the enemy, a lot of material for making fires (for either setting you on fire or creating smokescreens etc. etc.), a lot of material for making walls or obstacles and if the enemy really wants to conserve ammunition, they can just drop rocks on you from on high.

[kalos72]

I can fortify Staten Island or Long Island fine I think with the same basic tactics as above considering I would have the huge benefit of them both being islands of course.

Where this topic developed from was the idea of perhaps moving the campaign to base of some area like the "Iron Triangle". Savannah or something similar. Lots of land, 3-4 major army bases, good road networks, good resources in those states. Seemingly, all the things I would need to survive and start rebuilding.

But then I thought about the descriptions canon used for these units and thought, how can they defend a 1500 acre base with 1000 men? And so the question formed...

[Matt W]

I had some similar thoughts when I was working on the history of Maxwell's Militia (a Morrow Project Encounter Group). This is the solution I developed to explain the origin of a feudal system with tanks

Artillery solves many of your problems. Self-propelled units are best, but towed pieces will also work.

1. Each tank, artillery piece, or mortar (or even something like the Mk19 grenade launcher) is assigned to an appropriately sized farming community.
2. The determination of "appropriate sized" depends on the range of the weapon. It should be able to hit anything within its area of responsibility. A little overlap is also desirable
3. All farming communities should have some form of (small) multi-story fortification. This could be built from scratch or be the result of modifying an existing building. They would probably look something like the PELE or PEEL towers of the Scottish Border region. Or maybe a Martello Tower. These towers would be a lookout,a place of refuge for local women/children and also serve as a command/control/communications position for the Artillery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pele_tower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martello_tower

4. Farmers, villagers, etcetera should be given light weaponry (shotguns and hunting rifles are OK), appropriate training and some way of communicating with the artillery - for directing fire against marauders
5. As well as Artillery, the military should maintain some form of highly mobile "Quick Reaction Force" that will respond to any incursion. Tanks, APCs and SP Artillery are great for this role but horse cavalry might be used.

[jester]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

All of the information presented here is very good. However, how do you translate all of that to a built-up city environment such as New York City, where Kalos has his game set? The principles are the same but the execution is different in a city.
Not a lot of land immediately available for agriculture, lots of highrise buildings for observation of you by the enemy, those same highrise buildings obstructing your line of sight, lots of underground areas available for people to hide in or sneak up on you, lots of buildings/roads/tunnels channelling you as much as they do the enemy, a lot of material for making fires (for either setting you on fire or creating smokescreens etc. etc.), a lot of material for making walls or obstacles and if the enemy really wants to conserve ammunition, they can just drop rocks on you from on high.

A urban enviroment! EASILY!!!!!

You have the advantage as it being an island. And, it is your home territory! You can set up your own LP/OPs, set up your own snipers, machineguns and rifle teams in the high points and key positions. They can be there first thus prepared. Remember, in urban fighting it is always in the defenders favor. And in the T2K world there will be no surplus of assault troops and supporting fire to be the battlefield force multiplier that it is now.

After all, is not a building just another high point almost as good as a hill. And if you have fortified it or prepared it you would have some escape routes, hidden routes of travel where you can move unseen. And you could even drop things on the enemy. From hornets nests to ruble to flaming liquids.

You can also set up avenues of aproach thus channeling the enemy to areas of your choosing. Rig the bottom floor of a building so that if someone enters ruble rains down on them. Or, it looks like ruble, but, it is a covering for a pit of stakes or even a pit with steep sides and water! Ah it was once an underground garage.

And wide streets with ruble from colapsed buildings are natural berms and trenches. Ever try to run to the top of a tailings pile, or sand pile, or ruble pile? Its is very taxing.

As for where to grow crops, parks, front and back yards, vacant fields. Alot of the areas where there were suburbs would have older wooden homes, these homes that have been damaged can be used for stakes for stake traps, building new homes and buildings and firewood. And the empty lots can now be used as garden plots. We should go with primative hortavulture using what primative peoples do, a couple stalks of corn, with some beans to grow around the stalk and something for ground cover like squash. Figure you have 40 such combinations in the front yard and another 40 in the backyard, each bunch has half a dozen plants of each type and you would have enough to produce a years worth of rations.

Another place, vine type crops like grapes, musk mellons, squash and cucumbers and peas and such grown up the sides of buildings and from the balconies from buildings, oh yeah and tomatoes too!

And of course using planters or even large plots of soil on the top of some of the larger buildings. Look at a Walmart, or a Best Buy, those are rather large flat areas. Put in planter boxes in rows of about 10 feet wide going the length of the roof and you have some rather large growing areas where you could probably grow grains for making bread.

As for underground areas. AWESOME! Your people and forces can manuver unseen to safety or to hit an enemy in the rear. You can also flood some of the areas. Encourage the myth of alligators in the sewers of New York. Make it actualy happen! And all maner of traps, again put traps, spike traps, falling traps, net traps...oh boy oh boy all kinds of traps!

And these underground areas could be used to aquaculture as well growing algae, shrimp, fish, eels, crabs, snails and rats. And if the enemy tries to sneak through them, well, who here has ever been in a dark stagnant pool of water and had something or somethings swim past them or brush their legs? It does make you do a moral check! So, if the hostiles try to move through there, lol, and someone encounters something and there is alot of splashing or screaming, or they bail out and break through a sewer cover. And of course you would want to encourage the myth that alligators do lurk in the sewers now. Or, encourage a super rat that is overly large and agressive which I think would be fairly common in the post T2K world as they would have developed a taste for human and thus lost their fear. As well as super cats to deal with these super rats.

I do need to find a copy of the Armies of the Night, I can go so many places with it!

[Matt W]

This article might be interesting for a T2K campaign

http://www.journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html