Soviet ICBM force breakdown:SS-11 Sego

[sic1701]

At its peak, the Soviet Union fielded some 990-1,030 (sources vary) silo-based SS-11 Sego ICBMs of various models. Some were pulled to make room for SS-17s as those came online, and more were decommissioned as SS-19 silos were built adjoining SS-11 silos at four missile fields. That still left several Soviet missile fields utilizing the SS-11 Sego well into the 80s and possibly into the early 90s; at the time the first START treaty was negotiated in the late 80s/very early 90s, some 420 SS-11s were still operational.

What I would like to do, as part of kind of a "Do-It-Yourself SIOP" I am working on, is find out where these SS-11s were at and in what numbers. Sources such as www.fas.org and www.globalsecurity.org have been the most useful in determining locations and numbers of just about every other ICBM type utilized by the Sovs in the 80s-onward, but I can't seem to find locations and numbers on the SS-11.

It stands to reason this is a good place to ask that question. And, of course, any links or PDFs would be very handy. Thanks in advance, guys.

[chico20854]

Forgot where I got the locations from, but here they are along with the size of the strikes listed in the Challenge article on the USSR.

Svobodny 51.42 N 128.09 E 60 SS-11 2 Mt GB
Teykovo 56.89 N 40.58 E 26 SS-11, 36 SS-25 2 Mt GB
Tyumen 57°00' N 65°30' E SS-11
Yasnaya aka Olovyannaya 50°56' N 115°33' E 90 SS-11 2 Mt GB
Krasnoyarsk aka Gladkaya 56°22' N 92°25' E 40 SS-11, 36 rail-mobile SS-24
Itatka 56°49' N 85°35' E SS-11
Drovyanaya 51°30' N 113°03' E 50 SS-11, 18 SS-25
Bershet' aka Perm 57.70 N 56.30 E 60 SS-11, 36 rail-mobile SS-24 2 Mt GB

[sic1701]

Thanks much, Chico (both for this and for the link to your file dump...which will have to wait until I get more free time, as you have plenty of goodies there to peruse!).

According to what I've read regarding the START I treaty, Itatka and Tyumen were decommissioned SS-11 sites by the late 80s. What I have are 420 SS-11s (210 Mod 2s and 210 Mod 3s) in operation in 1989 (and hence this is relevant to Morrow Project as well) at Bershet (Perm), Drovyanaya, Kostroma, Kozel'sk, Gladkaya (Krasnoyarsk), Pervomaysk, Svobodny, Teykovo, and Yasnaya (Olovyannaya). Fields were formerly at Itatka and Tyumen, as you said, but also at Shadrinsk. Pervomaysk also had SS-19s as well as SS-24s, and it is unclear to me whether or not Pervomaysk decommissioned its -11s to keep under SALT II limits as the -19s came online. I did read that the -24s were deployed in modified -19 silos, however, as opposed to old -11 silos. But what I'm looking for is how many SS-11s were at each of the aforementioned bases circa 1989.

Regarding the Challenge article, are the yields you described (2 MT groundburst) reflecting the aggregate yield inflicted on that missile field by the U.S. strikes? And certainly that's not it...I can't imagine the U.S. not going after the SS-18s.

Another source I have been using other than FAS and Global Security has been the NRDC Nuclear Notebook and Nuclear Weapons Databook on the Sovs, which came out in 1989. Hard numbers are given in the NWD on every ICBM, but I had to consult many other sources to get the breakdown of how many were at each field.

[sic1701]

For the record, here is what I have at each field per the 1991 START I treaty, as reflected in FAS, Global Security, and a conglomeration of sources. If anyone has any additions or modifications, feel free to pass them along; I strive for accuracy. The overall ICBM numbers are much lower today due to treaty reductions and a general reshuffling of forces.

SS-11...420 total in operation in 1989 at Bershet (Perm), Drovyanaya, Kostroma, Kozel'sk, Gladkaya (Krasnoyarsk), Pervomaysk, Svobodny, Teykovo, and Yasnaya (Olovyannaya).

SS-13...60 in operation at Yoshkar Ola.

SS-17...150 operational; 80 at Kostroma, 70 at Yedrovo.

SS-18...308 operational; 30 at Aleysk, 64 at Dombarovskiy, 52 at Imeni Gastello (Derzhavinsk), 46 at Kartaly, 64 at Uzhur, and 52 at Zhangiz Tobe. NOTE:the Imeni Gastello and Zhangiz Tobe fields are located in Kazahkstan and were among the first to be decommissioned under START I, which coincided with the fall of the USSR and the independence of Kaz, so those sites are no longer operational. Another interesting point is that when START Treaty officials looked into a Kazahkstan SS-18 silo to check out a missile, they found it so badly corroded and so much ground water had leaked into the silo that the thing would have never lifted off...one wonders if a massive launch had been ordered, how many ICBMs would have actually left Russian airspace after being built and maintained in the "Workers Paradise"...

SS-19...304 operational; 90 at Derazhnaya (Khmelnitsky), 60 at Kozel'sk, 44 at Pervomaysk, 110 at Tatishchevo. Peak deployment was 360 missiles, with the Derazhnaya and Kozel'sk numbers remaining the same but 90 at Pervomaysk and 120 at Tatishchevo, but 46 SS-19 silos at Perv and 10 at Tat were upgraded and the -19s pulled and SS-24s installed. Additionally, Derazhnaya and Pervomaysk are located in the Ukraine and those missiles were decommissioned in the early 90s after the USSR fell.

SS-24...92 operational; 12 rail-based each at Gladkaya (Krasnoyarsk), Kostroma, and Bershet (Perm); another 46 silo-based at Pervomaysk (replacing earlier SS-19s) and 10 silo-based at Tatishchevo (also replacing earlier -19s). See above in the SS-19 description for the fate of -24s in the Ukraine.

SS-25...360 operational in 9-missile road-mobile regiments; 27 each at Drovyanaya, Gladkaya, Irkutsk, Kansk, Novosibirsk, Teykovo, and Yoshkar Ola; 36 at Lida in Belarus; 45 each at Mozyr in Belarus, Nizhniy Tagil (Verkhanaya Salda), and Yurya. The 81 total SS-25s based in Belarus were withdrawn to Russia after 1991 and regiments re-established elsewhere in Russian territory.

To summarize, in 1989 there were a total of 1,694 Soviet ICBMs listed as being in operational status; 420 SS-11s, 60 SS-13s, 150 SS-17s, 308 SS-18s, 304 SS-19s, 92 SS-24s, and 360 SS-25s.
Hope this helps.

[nuke11]

You may want to have a look at this site; http://russianforces.org/

Also the book is very good as well.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by sic1701

SS-17...150 operational; 80 at Kostroma, 70 at Yedrovo.

A minor note - 10 of the SS-17s at Yedrovo were loaded with communications satellites for the Perimetr "Dead Hand" system.

(The USAF correspondingly had 8 Minuteman II's carrying Emergency Rocket Communications System satellites.)

[sic1701]

Originally Posted by chico20854

A minor note - 10 of the SS-17s at Yedrovo were loaded with communications satellites for the Perimetr "Dead Hand" system.

(The USAF correspondingly had 8 Minuteman II's carrying Emergency Rocket Communications System satellites.)

Thanks much, Chico. I knew of the existence and purpose of the "Dead Hand" system, but not that those SS-17s thus equipped with the broadcast equipment to relay the commands to the other silos were at Yedrovo. PM me with additional details if you'd like, as well as where I might find additional information...I'm reading a non-fiction book called "Dead Hand" now, but only a few chapters in.

When they decommissioned the silos at Whiteman, did they reconstitute and update the ERCS system elsewhere? Or are there still 8 Minuteman II at Whiteman with this?

[sic1701]

OK, read the Wikipedia entry where it mentions Bush I stood it down along with ready-alert bombers, but did another system arise to give the communications redundancy required in intelligent nuclear war-fighting capability?

An aside...how would you (and I address not only Chico, but the rest of the assembled Forum; chime in, boys) assess the reliability of information on Wikipedia? An article that anyone can go in and edit and reshape give me some pause. There's nothing to prevent a government official or entity from editing the content to suit their purpose, whether it be disinformation or revelation and education, and not to sound like a paranoid fruitcake but I find it difficult to believe that some of the information out there in Wikipedia, in the (very) public domain and accessible to anyone with a computer, friend or foe, is necessarily accurate.

Personally, I am more inclined to use a book or magazine article (or a PDF or an online vesion thereof) which is more likely to have been professionally investigated, vetted, and edited for historical and technical accuracy and reliability than a wide-spectrum and very user-friendly (but also very user-mallable) resource like Wikipedia. A good starting point and go-to page, but one whose catchphrase should be "Trust, but verify", to quote the great Ronald Reagan.

Your thoughts and impressions, gentlemen?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by sic1701

An aside...how would you (and I address not only Chico, but the rest of the assembled Forum; chime in, boys) assess the reliability of information on Wikipedia?

I love and generally trust Wikipedia. For subject where facts are easily checked (like the population of Canada) it trust it right off the bat. For other more obscure points (religious breakdown of Canada for example) I trust it but I check one or two of their sources related to my area of interest (always a good idea on any site). The only clear exceptions are living figures or controversial subjects. In those cases I consider Wikipedia a starting point not a final answer.

I use Wikipedia so often on this site I made a new tag so I can make links to there faster.

More information here Wiki tag

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by sic1701

Thanks much, Chico. I knew of the existence and purpose of the "Dead Hand" system, but not that those SS-17s thus equipped with the broadcast equipment to relay the commands to the other silos were at Yedrovo. PM me with additional details if you'd like, as well as where I might find additional information...I'm reading a non-fiction book called "Dead Hand" now, but only a few chapters in.

When they decommissioned the silos at Whiteman, did they reconstitute and update the ERCS system elsewhere? Or are there still 8 Minuteman II at Whiteman with this?

" With the introduction of secure communications satellites, ERCS became unnecessary and was inactivated in 1991. "

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/fac...et.asp?id=8222

[Jakob fan of Red Pill]

Originally Posted by sic1701

At its peak, the Soviet Union fielded some 990-1,030 (sources vary) silo-based SS-11 Sego ICBMs of various models. Some were pulled to make room for SS-17s as those came online, and more were decommissioned as SS-19 silos were built adjoining SS-11 silos at four missile fields. That still left several Soviet missile fields utilizing the SS-11 Sego well into the 80s and possibly into the early 90s; at the time the first START treaty was negotiated in the late 80s/very early 90s, some 420 SS-11s were still operational.

What I would like to do, as part of kind of a "Do-It-Yourself SIOP" I am working on, is find out where these SS-11s were at and in what numbers. Sources such as www.fas.org and www.globalsecurity.org have been the most useful in determining locations and numbers of just about every other ICBM type utilized by the Sovs in the 80s-onward, but I can't seem to find locations and numbers on the SS-11.

It stands to reason this is a good place to ask that question. And, of course, any links or PDFs would be very handy. Thanks in advance, guys.

I have the same questions and found this forum when I was searching for information. This is my best guess today:
90 Yasnaya/Olovyannaya
80 Bershet/Perm
70 Svobodny
60 Teikovo/Teykovo
60 Gladkaya/Krasnoyarsk
60 Drovyanaya
110 Vypolzovo/Yedrovo (90 SS-17)
90 Kostroma (60 SS-17)
120 Tatischevo/Tatishchevo (110 SS-19)
90 Pervomaysk (90 SS-19)
90 Derazhnaya/Khmelnitsky (90 SS-19)
110 Kozelsk/Kozielsk (70 SS-19)

Please take a look at Red Pill forum to see how I got there. Thanks for comments and criticism

[kato13]

Hey welcome aboard. Nice link you provided there. The "Red Pill" game looks very promising.