Infantry vs. Armored Vehicles. Questions about rules.

[Marc]

Ei! Bona nit!

Finally, the excess of post-its in my v2.2 rulebook have forced me to rewrite my houserules in a more organized way. And, of course, a new reading of these notes makes me rediscover certain old solutions that do not convince me right now. So I will appreciate if anybody can give me an opinion about these matters. The following points regard to armored vehicles vs. infantry combat in an urban area.

1. With v2.2 rulebook, you can determine, for example, if an explosion opens a gap in the wall of house. But do you use any system to decide if a building is destroyed due to the effect of sustained direct or indirect artillery fire?
2. If any type of AP round penetrates the wall of a building’s room, do you apply any kind of damage to the personnel inside?
3. And if the wall is penetrated by an explosive round? Do you apply the normal damage for an explosion to the personnel inside? Is any concussion damage absorbed by the wall?
4. How many degrees could I consider that tank turret is able to turn in 5 sec. combat turn? And, thinking specifically about a tracked vehicle, which is the pivoting turn ratio?
5. How do you solve the observation rolls of the crew of an armored vehicle to detect enemy infantry at close range, (all the crewmembers inside the vehicle, hatches closed)?

Arreveure!

[kcdusk]

1. with v2.2 you can work out how big a hole is made due to arty or RPG etc. I'd say that if > half a wall is knocked down, then the wall is destroyed. Does that mean the whole house falls down? I dont know, it depends on what the house is made out of etc. and maybe how many stories it is. There was an article in challenge that spoke of ruined buildings, i might need to dig it out. For lots of arty falling on a house, determine average damage and hole size per shell, and apply that to walls/roofs to see how much damage is being down (saves dice rolling for each round).


2. Hmm, if AP round penetrates a wall, it looses some "damage" or explosion factor for breaching the wall. Then apply whats left to whomever is in the room. I've not done this, but think it possible. Many half the burst radius and apply damage to persons in the room as a starting point.


3. Same as above.


4. I seen a post on the old site that gave some examples. But from memory, and in my game, most turrents could do a 360 within 5 seconds.


5. Exposed commander or crew member in a hatch get normal observation rolls. Driver can make observation checks one level harder and can only observe in the forward 90 degree wedge.

Infantry buttoned up with hatches closed cannot make any checks.

Infantry looking out hatches make observation rolls at two levels difficulty harder. By all accounts it really is hard to see how of weapon ports.

[kcdusk]

your post has an "urban combat" feel to it. Heres some ideas i wrote up and kept in a word doc. re optional rules that might suit you.


Urban Combat
Reduced AGL if wearing body armour. Agility is reduced by 1 (or 2 if its old and/or bulky armour). Also, increase the amount of AGL D10 checks a PC needs to take for some tasks like getting over a wall or fence, climbing up onto the side of a tank … there will be others. Failure might see a PC sprain an ankle, back pain or break an arm depending on the action and another die roll (ie slight wounds from these non-combat type actions. But they could add up).

Increased fatigue for wearing body armour in urban environment. For each 4 hour period on patrol or on watch, it qualifies as a period of “hard work” as per the RB. In addition, roll D10 v CON. A failure means it counts as an additional period of hard work (in effect that 4 hour period is equivalent to 8 hours of hard work). If the soldier is not adequately rationed with water/food, a D10 roll equal to CON is assumed to have failed the CON test. If the soldier is adequately rationed and rolls equal to CON they are assumed to have passed the check.

Also, only half a PC’s load capacity can be carried in urban combat/patrols to reflect the hard work required in MOUT. If more than half but up to the normal load capacity is carried, then another –1 to AGL & CON applies to tasks and another fatigue point per time period is added (ie a 4 hour patrol is hard work as per RB, and if a PC has > half load capacity then when he takes his CON it is at –1 for carrying > half load capacity, and if that CON check fails he is said to have had 1 additional period of hard work if wearing body armour and possibly another fatigue point for being encumbered. So a single 4 hour period of duty in urban could equate to 3 levels of hard work for the day).

The effect of the rules above is to reflect the hard work and nature of MOUT operations and make PC’s choose between body armour or not (a trade off) and also equipment to carry on patrol (another trade off). From all my readings it seems that MOUT is hard (hence CON and fatigue effects), patrols carry the least amount of gear as possible (hence half loads) and also some soldiers chose not to wear body in MOUT due to its fatiguing effects and also reduced flexibility (AGL).

Communication difficulties in city/high rise/large amount of other electrical items in small area. For every radio contact, a radio check is required to contact the other party. This reflects the difficulty in the environment and it may be only half or so radio contacts are able to be made leaving groups in the dark re some important issues in MOUT (what are the rest of your forces doing? What reports on enemy movement are you missing? Where are you moving in relation to your own forces? Into their fire lane maybe?).

Reduced LOS (closer encounters) - table below requires two rolls to determine city encounter ranges. Roll D6 to see which range increment to roll. Some encounters will be very close (D20M) and simulate “bumping” into an enemy (like rounding a corner) and maybe Melee is a better option than rifles? Also, Pistols and SMG’s come into play more over Sniper rifles etc if a quick draw is required at short range.

And range is less likely to be long but it could be (10D100m = 1,000m) which reflects seeing a target down a road or in an upper level of a building.

1st roll D6 2nd roll for actual distance
Range
D6 Urban
1 D20m
2 2D20m
3 D10X10m
4 D10X25m
5 D10x25m
6 D10X100m


Navigation problems streets/alleys, knowing where both friend and foe locations, destinations and firelanes are. Make navigation checks more regularly where friend or foe movement is concerned. Also a failed Nav check could mean you get lost, stumble into a fellow units fire lane or your own group thinks they have found a building where the enemy should be but really it’s the wrong building and is full of your own friendly troops. This reflects real life reports of blue on blue fire and also how difficult it can be just to move to where you want to go (Mogadishu/Blackhawk down example).

3 dimensional combat (underground, ground, upper stories) Have encounters come out of nowhere (D20m range?) like man holes, side rooms, from around corners, from the rear (is anyone watching the 6? Or staying back to ensure that cleared room stays clear for exit?).

NPC’s & PC’s have more hard cover available than normal.

Some of these items require radio or navigation checks which I hope is another way of encouraging PCs to take non-combat skills that are essential to have. Also, in a multi person party it means specialists can be played like Radio-man is not just someone with a “1” in electronics making “automatic success” tasks like contacting HQ or your covering group on the radio, and a navigation man (or local guide) is needed just to make sure you get to where you are going (little own the other challenges your party may face). He will need a high electronics skill and need to pass real skill checks at difficult, formidable or impossible levels (as opposed to automatic success’s).

I hope these ideas add some more flavour to MOUT combat and encounters.

[Fusilier]

#2 - None.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

#2 - None.

With respect, I disagree. There would be the masonry equivalent of spalling in a narrow cone entering the room IMO.

[jester]

I would beg to differ with some of them.

Navigation,

If you are familiar with the area, then you will know the landmarks. Thats whats cool about urban, so many landmarks.

As for body armor and encumbrance;

Eh, the thing is in urban you are moving forward, then stopping alot. You will sit for a good portion of time as your point goes forward, this is where bounding overwatch is pretty good. So, the fatigue will not be a big issue in my view. Certainly not like operating in open ground.

As for distances,

This is something I have pondered, what about arming distances for some weapons, like 40mm grenades and rockets. Since distances can be much closer, would you be able effectively use them? Will the weapon arm before it impacts? And of course being caught in the blast area or frying yourself or your team with a backblast.

And, lets throw a penality for armored vehicles operating, or a bonus for troops attacking vehicles from higher floors of a building since they will now be attacking the top of the vehicle which will sorely limit the vehicles ability to return fire.

Urban is an infantrymans nightmare, but its worse for armor.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

your post has an "urban combat" feel to it. Heres some ideas i wrote up and kept in a word doc. re optional rules that might suit you.




Communication difficulties in city/high rise/large amount of other electrical items in small area. For every radio contact, a radio check is required to contact the other party. This reflects the difficulty in the environment and it may be only half or so radio contacts are able to be made leaving groups in the dark re some important issues in MOUT (what are the rest of your forces doing? What reports on enemy movement are you missing? Where are you moving in relation to your own forces? Into their fire lane maybe?).

I know I'm muddying the waters a bit but is you use a VHF-Hi (137 - 174 Mc) or better yet, UHF (400 - 512 Mc or even 800 Mc and up), you would generally have better comms in an urban environment, that's why many cities use UHF for their police and emergency comms. Out in the country, VHF-Lo (30 - 88 Mc) is best because it can cover a longer distance but is more prone to interference in urban areas.

Chuck M.

[Marc]

Communications surely deserve a new skill in T2k. The technical knowledge of the different types of radio, the installation and control of field phone lines, the knowledge of the best antenna type to use, the communication protocol and radio discipline, the detection and location of enemy emissions...

I'm afraid that Communications skill needs the emancipation from Electronics skill.

[Marc]

Regarding the points of my initial post.

1. The solution of Kcdusk seems good and simple enough. I more than half of the wall disappears, all the wall falls down. Then, use common sense to determine if the wall was important for the structure of the building.

2. None of the AP rounds listed in the rulebook has any concussion value. And this coincides with the opinion of Targan and Fusilier. The only damage would be caused by direct contact or by the cone of fragmented masonry. But I thought that actual AP rounds had an small explosive or incendiary charge, not as old WWII AP rounds. I suppose that this charge can be negligible in this type of situation (without an armor plate).

3. About the direct fire of an explosive round against the wall I will consider that the characters inside are in the primary burst area. But I will not take into account concussion damage unless the rounds enters through a previous hole or through a window and explodes directly inside the room.

4. 360º in 5 sec. seems to fast. But no idea. I will try to investigate the matter.

5. A question emerged to me. During combat, with all the hatches closed, is the commander the only crew member that is able to scan 360º around his vehicle through a periscope?

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Marc

Communications surely deserve a new skill in T2k. The technical knowledge of the different types of radio, the installation and control of field phone lines, the knowledge of the best antenna type to use, the communication protocol and radio discipline, the detection and location of enemy emissions...

I'm afraid that Communications skill needs the emancipation from Electronics skill.

I think that is a good idea although it can be a cascade skill where Communications can also use electronics but at half the skill and vice versa. Of course, this might have to be boiled down to radio use and so on.

Chuck M.

[Targan]

The system used in my campaign has a much vaster skill list than any of the original T2K systems and we have a skill called Communications Operation.

[Fusilier]

I said 'none' for number 2 as there is no explosive in the round.

Targan, yes I agree about the masonry, but think you'd have to be pretty much in the way of the round to be hit by it. And unless it hit your face I don't think it'd do much damage. Not saying you are wrong or I am right... just saying.

[Marc]

Bona nit!

About the Navigation skill in urban combat i think I will use Kcsusk suggestion.

From the point of view of a group of characters entering for the first time in a disputed urban area, the use of navigation skill can be especially important.
Perhaps the group have not any map of the city. If the characters have not get enough information before entering the area, a military map will be usually at 1:25000 scale and it is not the most appropriate system to plot a coordinate movement. Of course, the presence of characteristic buildings, big squares, main roads and others can help. But the urban scenery will be deformed by rubble. Some streets will be blocked and the signs can be obscured or changed by the defender.

And, after all, the real problem is not to get lost. The use of navigation skill can help the referee to answer questions like: Will the group spend precious time to link with an allied unit? Will they know the best alternate and passable route for their 2 1/2 truck, after having found the main street blocked? Will the scout remember if that route is covered from that high building occupied by enemy forces?

The level of the navigation check may be adjusted by the information required and the familiarity with the area. The battle hardened sniper who has been fighting in the city for tree months knows that if he goes through the gap in the wall of the warehouse and crawls under the burnt car, he will find the entrance to the sewer system that will allow him to gain a good shooting position over that 2 1/2 truck that has found the obstacle he has prepared yesterday. For sure the truck crew will choose that predictable alternate route where he will be waiting, with the patience of the hunter.

In other RPG's, skills as "local knowledge" or "tactics:urban combat" would cover those kind of situations, leaving to the navigation skill the simple task to decide if the group get lost.

And from the Murphy's Laws of Combat (Challenge#57): "The most dangerous weapon in your enemy's arsenal is one of your own second lieutenants carrying a map and a compass."

[jester]

The thing about urban and getting lost.

Yes, in a town or city thats been blown to bits the landmarks will be defaced and altered. But, the same will be with obstacles. Not so much point A to point B via a map. But having to do a very round about route to get there is what makes it so easy to become lost in urban fighting.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Marc

Bona nit!

About the Navigation skill in urban combat i think I will use Kcsusk suggestion.

Even with maps in an urban zone, populations have been known to take down street signs or exchange street signs in an effort to confuse an enemy force.

Most of my "urban house rules" came as i was putting an iraqui type scenario together (or thing black hawk down - the movie).

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

Ibut is you use a VHF-Hi (137 - 174 Mc) or better yet, UHF (400 - 512 Mc or even 800 Mc and up), you would generally have better comms in an urban environment,
Chuck M.

I know nothing about combat, radios or electricty. But having read a few after action reports of modern day urban confilcts, almost all spoke about the difficulties of being able to stay in contact with each other or home base.

I dont know what frequency or anything they were using. But hte impression i got was that even with "the best", having regular comms became difficult in an urban environment. So while i know nothing, even the USA has struggled in modern day times. So whether a UHF would improve things or not, i dont know. But from a game point of view, having PCs out of comms for a while isnt always a bad thing :-) and seems realistic compared to real life as well.

To go a little more off topic, but still have context with the original post, I am a radio man in the US Army. I have not actually done my job in a tactical environment as of late, but I will say this. Short distance, tactical radios have gotten better by leaps and bounds. So much so that there doesn't even need to be an RTO standing next to a squad leader, or does there?

The problem with having outstanding small, portable, ultra high speed radios like the MBITR (link to official sale points sheet), or a prick 152 is that it tempts the chain of command to no longer assign another man to be next to a leader and hold onto the radio. In THEORY, this could be great as a leader now is just a literal push of a button away from his higher ups.

HOWEVER, in any combat operation, ESPECIALLY the deadly urban environment, a squad leader would have to, if having his hands on the radio himself, take his mind off the situation at hand-his eyes too- get on his radio, ensure it is good for transmitting, then talk to whomever. The problems with that are obvious. His reaction time to receiving contact, or something else is greatly hindered.

That is just something I wanted to add concerning comms, and radio equipment. In today's world, comms are easy to establish, but they don't always stay that way.

[jester]

One problem is combat is a chaos enviroment. And the new fangled easy to communicate equipment of today, well people as we call it in the civilian side will be stepping on one another. The ease of use of equipment means it will be used more and more, often by those less skilled and disciplined. End result alot of folks will be on the radio making it difficult to get a message out. Or for HQ to determine who is who and what info is comming in and where the event is occuring.

Also,

Inside a town or city, you will have all kinds of tall buildings and metal which will interfere with your signal. And then all the other waves out there, other radio nets, enemy nets and freqs, scramblers, electronic interference, concussions and movement will all mess with your reception. And of course atmospherics as well <remember the movie A Bridge Too Far? They mentioned that> Wet climates reduce verses dry, flat and open terrain easier, built up or mountainous is harder.

And today cell phones and walkie talkies work off of repeaters that bounce the signal allowing you contact. In a combat enviroment they won't be working, however, in one game I had a radio repeater or booster in one of the PCs vehicles which allowed them to increase radio transmission capability, as well as to listen at an even greater distance.

[Earthpig]

Originally Posted by bigehauser

To go a little more off topic, but still have context with the original post, I am a radio man in the US Army. I have not actually done my job in a tactical environment as of late, but I will say this. Short distance, tactical radios have gotten better by leaps and bounds. So much so that there doesn't even need to be an RTO standing next to a squad leader, or does there?

The problem with having outstanding small, portable, ultra high speed radios like the MBITR (link to official sale points sheet), or a prick 152 is that it tempts the chain of command to no longer assign another man to be next to a leader and hold onto the radio. In THEORY, this could be great as a leader now is just a literal push of a button away from his higher ups.

HOWEVER, in any combat operation, ESPECIALLY the deadly urban environment, a squad leader would have to, if having his hands on the radio himself, take his mind off the situation at hand-his eyes too- get on his radio, ensure it is good for transmitting, then talk to whomever. The problems with that are obvious. His reaction time to receiving contact, or something else is greatly hindered.

That is just something I wanted to add concerning comms, and radio equipment. In today's world, comms are easy to establish, but they don't always stay that way.

A squad leader usually has his handset clipped on his chinstrap with the earpiece wedged on his ear and the mouthpiece near his mouth(go figure) .He already has his freq's loaded and, at least on the PRC 126, turns the knob a number of clicks to the required channel (a squad leader only needs a Co. Freq and Plt. Freq in combat, and usually only the latter) this requires at most one free hand. Now with newer setups(I retired three years ago) it may be a different deal. It doesn't seriously affect his job as a squad leader.....in fact it enhances it. As a platoon leader or a company commander having a RTO is more of a necessity (bigger radio more freqs and more responsibility)

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I know nothing about combat, radios or electricty. But having read a few after action reports of modern day urban confilcts, almost all spoke about the difficulties of being able to stay in contact with each other or home base.

I dont know what frequency or anything they were using. But hte impression i got was that even with "the best", having regular comms became difficult in an urban environment. So while i know nothing, even the USA has struggled in modern day times. So whether a UHF would improve things or not, i dont know. But from a game point of view, having PCs out of comms for a while isnt always a bad thing :-) and seems realistic compared to real life as well.

I've always favored something like the "Family Radio Service" (FRS) radios mixed with GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) that uses if the 462/467 Mc bands on UHF for some comms, at least in my Morrow Project games, FRS radios supplement the regular radios and are used for short range tactical comms. I think FRS came out in 1996 so in a Twilight World, it might not be as far ahead as it is now, but certainly on a technical level, doable.

Chuck M.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by jester

One problem is combat is a chaos enviroment. And the new fangled easy to communicate equipment of today, well people as we call it in the civilian side will be stepping on one another. The ease of use of equipment means it will be used more and more, often by those less skilled and disciplined. End result alot of folks will be on the radio making it difficult to get a message out. Or for HQ to determine who is who and what info is comming in and where the event is occuring.

Also,

Inside a town or city, you will have all kinds of tall buildings and metal which will interfere with your signal. And then all the other waves out there, other radio nets, enemy nets and freqs, scramblers, electronic interference, concussions and movement will all mess with your reception. And of course atmospherics as well <remember the movie A Bridge Too Far? They mentioned that> Wet climates reduce verses dry, flat and open terrain easier, built up or mountainous is harder.

And today cell phones and walkie talkies work off of repeaters that bounce the signal allowing you contact. In a combat enviroment they won't be working, however, in one game I had a radio repeater or booster in one of the PCs vehicles which allowed them to increase radio transmission capability, as well as to listen at an even greater distance.

Vehicle Mounted repeaters are a good idea to, even some police cars have that. As to atmospherics, they have an effect too. I talked to Canada on 1 watt on my walkie-talkie across Lake Erie by standing at the shore. I once picked up out local police department on UHF as far away as Canton, Ohio because of ducting in the atmosphere. Then again, you have other factors you pointed out too. Then again, it could be up to the ref if the plot requires it and it somewhat plausible.

Chuck M.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

Vehicle Mounted repeaters are a good idea to, even some police cars have that. As to atmospherics, they have an effect too. I talked to Canada on 1 watt on my walkie-talkie across Lake Erie by standing at the shore. I once picked up out local police department on UHF as far away as Canton, Ohio because of ducting in the atmosphere. Then again, you have other factors you pointed out too. Then again, it could be up to the ref if the plot requires it and it somewhat plausible.

Chuck M.

I recall at Camp Courtney Okinawa, using a PRC 67 and a mast antena they were able to pick up the West Coast United States.

Then my uncle was a HAM, they would have a routine yearly radio weekend event at a local part. and with his walkie talkie handheld sized radio and some of the other folks they with some magic that only that sort of person understand were talking with folks all over the world.


Again what magic is contained in those little boxes and the witchery they preform I know little of.