Odds and ends.

[Rockwolf66]

well I'm thinking about possibly writing up a bit of TW2000 ficiton and I was wondering about the stats of a couple things.

The first is the Achisson Assault 12, I know that Paul Mulcahy has the USAS-12 shotgun on his site but the Achisson and the latter MPS AA-12 are different as far as internals and accessories go. For the fiction I was going to have a "modernized version of the AA-12 with a M-177 style stock and the foreend similar to a Colt Automatic Rifle.



Second is a bit of a nitpic of mine as the Marine LAV-AD vehicles that I have seen have all mounted a 25mm vulcan style cannon not a tri barreled 30mm gun.

that and Does anyone have an idea about which units were destroyed when the 5th Divsion was overrun,and about what percent of the 5th could have survived?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

The first is the Achisson Assault 12, I know that Paul Mulcahy has the USAS-12 shotgun on his site but the Achisson and the latter MPS AA-12 are different as far as internals and accessories go. For the fiction I was going to have a "modernized version of the AA-12 with a M-177 style stock and the foreend similar to a Colt Automatic Rifle.

Second is a bit of a nitpic of mine as the Marine LAV-AD vehicles that I have seen have all mounted a 25mm vulcan style cannon not a tri barreled 30mm gun.

The first: I'm not sure the stock is possible, as I believe that the AA-12 is a "semi-bullpup" sort of design (there's a lot of the mechanism inside the stock). But you should check up on what I just said as I'm not totally sure about that.

The second: I didn't know that. I'll have to fix that on my site.

[Rockwolf66]

well I found This about the LAV-AD.

As far as the AA-12 shotgun goes I was going for an alternative universe build that is intended for combat in urbanized areas or in the sorts of wooded areas where the undergrowth gets really thick. From what I have read about the design it uses that long tube on the back of the reciver to hold a lengthened recoil spring. In essence it's a buffer tube. Technically it would be possible to mount a collapsing stock around said buffer tube. What I am looking at would be similar to what is described in one of the old Able Team novels. an AA-12 modifed to look closer to the visual profile of an M-16 varient and not an assault shotgun.

[Rockwolf66]

sorry for the double post but I found a video of the LAV-AD with a good shot of the 25mm. Suprisingly enough it seems to have a 70mm rocket launcher over the gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XooFmPUt6aA

[pmulcahy11b]

7-round Hydra-70 launcher. What does that have to do with air defense? You'd be lucky to hit a fast moving target with an unguided rocket -- the Air force found that out in the 1960s. Though there is that experimental guided Hydra-70 rocket, come to think of it...maybe they're developing an AAA version of it.

...or, increase its utility in a ground support role.

[Dog 6]

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20100917.aspx


Guided 70mm rockets are not a new thing, they work very well but only vs ground targets

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

7-round Hydra-70 launcher. What does that have to do with air defense? You'd be lucky to hit a fast moving target with an unguided rocket -- the Air force found that out in the 1960s. Though there is that experimental guided Hydra-70 rocket, come to think of it...maybe they're developing an AAA version of it.

...or, increase its utility in a ground support role.

The Ground support role does seem to be the nitch of such a modification.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

that and Does anyone have an idea about which units were destroyed when the 5th Divsion was overrun,and about what percent of the 5th could have survived?

I don't have the 1st edition "death of a division" handout in front of me. But I think it implied that every 5th ID component unit suffered enough to be effectively written off as a loss.

The 2nd edition BYB (big yellow book) has a Poland map which lists the locations of units. It does list the 5th ID as a dotted circle and "elements". not sure of the exact location on the Poland map, I'm guessing southeast of Kalisz.

I have seen a non-canon T2k OOB that listed the surviving numbers for 5th ID as 500 men and 1 AFV. If I find it I will post it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

I have seen a non-canon T2k OOB that listed the surviving numbers for 5th ID as 500 men and 1 AFV. If I find it I will post it.

This would be a reasonable assessment I would think, however those 500 men are likely scattered over many dozens of miles in groups numbering no more than 20 or so. Each group is also unlikely to be in contact with each other.
So, even though some other divisions have listed strength less than this (the SOV 10th TD springs to mind), they at least are in one peice and still functioning as a unit.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

Guided 70mm rockets are not a new thing, they work very well but only vs ground targets

Here's a question -- doesn't adding a guidance package to a rocket technically make it a missile?

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Here's a question -- doesn't adding a guidance package to a rocket technically make it a missile?

imo yes

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

I don't have the 1st edition "death of a division" handout in front of me. But I think it implied that every 5th ID component unit suffered enough to be effectively written off as a loss.

The 2nd edition BYB (big yellow book) has a Poland map which lists the locations of units. It does list the 5th ID as a dotted circle and "elements". not sure of the exact location on the Poland map, I'm guessing southeast of Kalisz.

I have seen a non-canon T2k OOB that listed the surviving numbers for 5th ID as 500 men and 1 AFV. If I find it I will post it.

I have the Escape from Kalis pamflit with me right now and what I was planning on putting together and the ad hoc group of survivors would be a a combination of an engineering vehicle, a LAV-AD, a fuel carrier version of the HEMET and a couple HMMWV. Basically a combinations of escaped units that have banded together and are trying to stay alive.

I was thinking of starting the story after the unit has hit a soviet supply dump.

[Legbreaker]

That makes for a fairly hefty unit post 5th ID destruction. It's bound to attract a LOT of attention from the Pact forces.
The Engineer vehicle, LAV and truck are all essentially rear area or support unit vehicles. Chances are they came from Divisional or perhaps Brigade HQ and so there's likely to be an inordinately large number of officers and support staff.
Based purely on vehicle selection, it wouldn't surprise me if this small unit is what's left of one of those HQs.

[Rockwolf66]

As far as the unit leadership goes I saw the Defacto unit commander a company commander who has manager to escape capture by the russians. The rest of the unit is an adhoc group of soldiers that he has managed to collect up in the days after the destruction of the division. Basically the survivors are trying to find a place to lay low and not get Shitkicked by the larger Russian units around them. Right now I am going to have to print out a pre-destruction unit OOB and then figure out the groups host units.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

I have the Escape from Kalis pamflit with me right now and what I was planning on putting together and the ad hoc group of survivors would be a a combination of an engineering vehicle, a LAV-AD, a fuel carrier version of the HEMET and a couple HMMWV. Basically a combinations of escaped units that have banded together and are trying to stay alive.

I was thinking of starting the story after the unit has hit a soviet supply dump.

I like it. If you write it I will certainly read it.

[Rockwolf66]

well from the US vehicle guide the 5th Mech ID started out with somewhere between 2,500 and 3,499 men and 40 abrams tanks.
It's hard to belive that only 500 men and one tank survied the battle of Kalis. I would thnk that there would be alot more survivors and from the fluff text the 5th mauled the Soviet army they fought.

[Dog 6]

maybe one of the mod's could dig up the past thread or 3 about this

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

well from the US vehicle guide the 5th Mech ID started out with somewhere between 2,500 and 3,499 men and 40 abrams tanks.
It's hard to belive that only 500 men and one tank survied the battle of Kalis. I would thnk that there would be alot more survivors and from the fluff text the 5th mauled the Soviet army they fought.

I did a storyline simulation of the battles that led to the 5th's destruction, as lead-up info for my future games. I started with Graebeard's OOB, and then followed the basic plot of the storyline, adding casualties as it went along. As this is my own work, it's not canon numbers, but what I ended up with was:

Total initial strength 6,600 Combat troops initial strength approx. 2,600
July 18, 0001 hrs 4,471 Combat troops July 18, 0001 hrs 973*

* includes 86 survivors from 256th Brigade that fled south of Lask on July 16.

So as of the final attack at Kalisz, I ended up with only about 900 "combat troops" defending Kalisz, with over 3,000 in rear area services behind them. "Combat troops" I defined as troops of the front line companies of the three brigades (i.e., not HQ/support troops from battalion, brigade or division).

From this point forward, my feeling was a lot of the rear-area troops would end up surrendering (esp. to 10th Polish TD). I figured perhaps 1,500 total men (about 1/3 of July 18, 0001 strength) would get away, with perhaps one third of these being "combat troops".

Draw from that what you will.

[Dog 6]

imho every one would be a "combat troop" in a situation like the 5th found its self in. as for surrendering I don't think that would be even an option after the beating the 5th gave out. i.e. stand and die or run .


imo 500-600 men , 2-4 tanks and 20-30 assorted AFV's in small groups would have gotten out of the line of fire, as to how long they would have lasted after that day idk.

[Legbreaker]

We know that the Abrams of one of the brigades had nothing but fumes in their tanks and no reserve. Although they obliterated a Soviet unit on the road below, it's unlikely any of them escaped (but possible enough was scavenged to get one moving a mile or two).
I can't say if any other tanks were involved anywhere in the battle (away from books).

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

imho every one would be a "combat troop" in a situation like the 5th found its self in.

I don't disagree. When I did the activity of running through the battles, I just wanted to get a handle on how different groups of troops were affected, so categorized them for easier reference.

as for surrendering I don't think that would be even an option after the beating the 5th gave out. i.e. stand and die or run.

IMO, easy to say, harder to see happening in 'reality'. People will do funny things when staring down the barrel of an AK / DShK / T55 I think many would attempt to surrender, given the choice of that or near-certain death. Surviving the surrender attempt is another matter entirely.

I do agree that, depending on how bloody-minded the Poles and Soviets were, a lot of 5 ID was going to depart the mortal coil on July 18...

[Rockwolf66]

well having taken a look at my copy of going home. Apparently the survivors of the 5th, really do take a nasty chunk out of the 4th army.The 4th army numbers in the 2.2 rulebook are straight out of the escape from Kalis book. Going home indicates that after the battle the various soviet units take even more casualties and the remaining larger units have absorbed smaller units. The story I am working on is just after the battle of Kalis and the 5th is trying to prevent the soviets from trying to get their shit together.

[Legbreaker]

From memory there's a reference in the Excape from Kalisz scenario indicating Polish and Soviet units enter into armed conflict over resources in the days immediately following the destruction of the 5th. That action is likely to have a direct impact on the Going Home numbers.

[Rockwolf66]

well right now I am going over the 5th division OOB page and looking at the first 1984-1992 OOB and extrapolating from there although I don't have the resources to print out the pre-Kalis OOB just yet but I will be looking into it for inspiration although several units seem to be made up for the game rather than having a basis in reality.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't see anything recognizable as 5th ID surviving the fight -- no support, limited ETOH fuel versus Pact forces running on gasoline. Stragglers in small groups is entirely plausible.

[Rockwolf66]

well looking at the 4th army OOB pre- Kalis the 5th was outnumbered 7 to 1 and running on fumes while the russians had full tanks of gas. Still the 5th managed to give the Russians 4x the casualties.

You are right in saying that there is no 5th division left. As far as the scattered units go their command will vary with the units.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

You are right in saying that there is no 5th division left. As far as the scattered units go their command will vary with the units.

As Their Scattered Bodies Go...

Sorry, your post reminded me of the title of a book I once read.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As Their Scattered Bodies Go...

Sorry, your post reminded me of the title of a book I once read.

Not to worry, you arn't the only mentally ill person i know. There's myself (Aspergers Syndrome), my favorite politician(If I remember correctly she has the same sort of mental illness you do) and a friend who had his brain scrambled when a soccermom ran him over.

heck according to some psycological research I have read most units in TW2K would be 98% psychological casualties. the other 2% would be psychopathic.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

heck according to some psycological research I have read most units in TW2K would be 98% psychological casualties. the other 2% would be psychopathic.

That's kind of a little-tapped area of T2K, for both PC and NPC development. I think it may be hard to play convincingly mentally-ill if you haven't been there, and you're not an actor or something like that -- and they need lots of research to do it right. Lots of mental illness portrayed on TV and movies is just wrong.