So glad I found this forum; my T2k...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I thought T2k was all but dead in the most academic of senses! Good to see I was proved wrong.

I'd like to start a T2k game, just gotta find the right group.

One of the coolest resources I've found is a papercraft LAV-25 in 1/72 scale (so it works with true 25mm minis); unfortunately that's the only modern armor I've found in that scale. If I'm going to go forward with it I'll have to get a few other actual plastic kits (Hasegawa, Italiari etc.).

As far as the actual setting goes, tell me what you think of these tweaks:

Belgium supported the rest of NATO, but after the initial exchange they were forcibly annexed by France resulting in much the same situation that exists now, except armed forces and dependents escaped into NW Germany. The Netherlands closed their borders and declared themselves neutral in the conflict but allow humanitarian aid as they can.

Italy follows suit, and does not stop reinforcement of troops in SE Europe as well as some to the RDF areas in the middle east through the Suez. However, Spain takes its toll as it aligns with France (after being hit with three nukes during November of 1997), withdrawing support and threatening to shut down the Straits of Gibraltar.

A trickle of fuel still comes in from both CivGov and MilGov shipments for aircraft, but the total number of flyable combat a/c in Europe under NATO/US command is less than two dozen, and they are scrupulously hoarded for extreme emergency purposes only (to the point that with the exception of two AH-6 "Little Bird" helos for observation and scouting, none were deployed during the ill fated "push to the Baltic").

Once Op-Ord Omega kicks off, while some heavy armor will be left for the Germans, the bulk of it will be transferred to the middle east to help secure and hold gas and oil production facilities.

Things "back home" are bad and getting worse in terms of famine and disease.

The US Navy has two operational carriers left, one as outlined in the RDF and another in the Pacific (John F. Kennedy). The USS Saratoga ran aground after considerable anti-ship missile damage near Port Richie, FL. While her helos and prop a/c were able to launch and fly to the few undamaged airfields on Florida's west coast, her jet a/c (winnowed down to a single ad-hoc wing of 5 F18s, 3 F14s and 5 A6E's) still sit in her hangar deck, unless they have been scavenged for parts by privateers who roam the Florida coasts. Repeated lashings by hurricanes since 1997 have left the Saratoga in very, very bad condition and at this point it would be a multiple years-long operation to get her underway again.

Japan was heavily damaged during the war, leading to anti-US sentiment so strong that a civilian push backed by police was undertaken to try and force the remaining US troops out of the country. Since the bases were operating at a bare minimum of personnel (and, for example, Kadena had suffered a runway-busting 1.5mt groundburst), this very nearly succeeded. Only direct intervention by the otherwise unoccupied JSDF kept the Japanese citizenry from lynching the remaining base support personnel and dependents. Most have transferred to "safer" havens like South Korea and Australia. Both MilGov and CivGov consider the bases US property but have no power projection to take them back. The official stance of the Japanese government is that the situation in the west is "tragic" and will officially declare support for a united US government "At the resolution of their current internal crisis."

As Australia was virtually untouched (save by EMP in Western Australia) by the war, it has become a haven for thousands of British and US Expats. While the Australian government is officially bound to the Commonwealth, and on paper is aligned with the Civil Government in the US, beyond token humanitarian aid to the UK and US it has remained out of any hostilities. US and UK Expats are treated with sympathy, however, as Australia has nearly boundless resources. In the cities, though, some native citizens are chafing at the ever-increasing influx of refugees and there is parliamentary discussion of closing the border. Some radical right politicians are calling for a wholesale deportation of US and UK (and Canadian) citizens, or internment in "immigration centers".

South Korea continues to be a staunch US ally: they welcomed personnel from the ousted Japanese bases and elsewhere in the far east. Problematically, South Korea has difficulty feeding it's own population, much less an additional virtual army of refugees. Fortunately most of those who come are military, and will gladly join up with US forces who have driven the North Koreans into a thin mountainous region just south of the Yalu river valley.

North Korea, predictably, exists purely as a rump state. Attempts by the NK army to appeal to China for aid have been rebuffed - China is virtually shattered, and well remembers US aid during the war with Russia. Indeed, units on the NK/Chinese border have established a shoot-on-sight policy with those attempting to cross into Southern China.

Other countries of note: Mexico has rapidly turned up oil production, but climate problems have caused poor growing seasons, and a starving population cannot eat oil...

Cuba, per agreements with the Soviet Union, attacked the Southern US with Division Cuba, through Texas and a few abortive attempts to take Southern Florida.

Brazil is wholly energy independent, was spared EMP or direct strikes, and possesses two aircraft carriers and virtually unlimited arable land (depending on how much jungle they're willing to clear-cut), as well as a largely Italian and German armed military (pre-war, obviously). Brazil may well be the lone non-nuclear superpower in the world. Somewhat like Australia, sympathetic to refugees from the US/UK - but less tolerant of "permanent refugee" status. Acknowledges MilGov as the legitimate US Government.

Phew.

Anything too egregious there, fellows?

[Raellus]

Welcome aboard!

[helbent4]

RakJPz,

Welcome aboard! T2K isn't dead (few games truly are) and the recent licence of T2K raised it's profile a little, regardless what one thinks about T2013.

Are you thinking of running a sit-down game or via internet? Can't help with the former, there are places to get players, boards to use, etc.

Some personal opinions:

I like most of the changes; I especially think it's much more likely that Italy would remain neutral rather than actively go to war in support of the Soviet Union. Although the Italians have a strong leftist political element that sort of radical shift seems too fantastic, more likely to lead to open civil war or a coup by rightists. Neutrality fits the bill much better.

Brasil: definitely a non-nuclear power, but as an ally of the USA it's likely they would get some nuclear strikes, as this was part of the USSR's nuclear warfighting doctrine.

Australia: I agree these smug bastards would be in awesome shape. However, I see them as being heavily involved with the war in Korea, maybe even the premier western allied force if the Americans are withdrawn to support operations in the Gulf and Iran. While many Aussies seem to have... issues... with the Brits, can't see there being more than token support for deportation or internment for allied nationals. While not completely out of past character, this seems like something that would be adopted to deal with a massive flood of refugees from the other direction, like Asia, Africa and the Middle East. Probably you should emphasise how the possibly hundreds of thousands of refugees from those areas would be dealt with. Also, the Aussies would likely see themselves (with considerable justification) as being the leading Commonwealth nation, if not the equal to the UK's leadership in historical terms than at least surpassing them in a current practical sense. (Not that I have a problem with this, like I said, the Australians would be in a great position overall.)

As for Japan supporting a unified government, it's my opinion that as more and more nations make the transition to civilian governments I see political support switching to the US federal government from the US military. Not out of some deeper understanding of Constitutional law or moral judgment on who's right or wrong, but simply on the principle that as civilian governments they don't want to give their own military forces the idea that their loyalty is optional, and they gotta stick together.

All-in-all, great work!

Tony

[Targan]

I'm glad you found this forum too raketenjagdpanzer. Good to have you aboard.

I like many of your tweaks, they make good sense. I try to keep my campaigns' timelines close to canon but that's just a personal preference. I don't think Australia would remain out of hostilities though, unless in your timeline the whole war with Indonesia never happens.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

First, thanks for the welcome, all!

Originally Posted by helbent4

RakJPz,

Welcome aboard! T2K isn't dead (few games truly are) and the recent licence of T2K raised it's profile a little, regardless what one thinks about T2013.

Oh rest assured I know about games not being "dead": I'm a 1e AD&D enthusiast, too

Some personal opinions:

I like most of the changes; I especially think it's much more likely that Italy would remain neutral rather than actively go to war in support of the Soviet Union. Although the Italians have a strong leftist political element that sort of radical shift seems too fantastic, more likely to lead to open civil war or a coup by rightists. Neutrality fits the bill much better.

Yeah, I think the Italians would have too much of a problem being aligned with the Bulgarians. Plus I think the Pope would probably intervene in the name of neutrality once the small-scale nukes started to fly.

But they're strongly neutral (and the alps help keep them so). They have able armor divisions in Northern Italy ready to deal with any shenanigans from NATO or WarPac.

Brasil: definitely a non-nuclear power, but as an ally of the USA it's likely they would get some nuclear strikes, as this was part of the USSR's nuclear warfighting doctrine.

Hm, I forgot about how strongly allied with the US they are. That would really make life hard on the Brazilians. A few nukes would pretty much finish them, just looking at the map.

Australia: I agree these smug bastards would be in awesome shape. However, I see them as being heavily involved with the war in Korea, maybe even the premier western allied force if the Americans are withdrawn to support operations in the Gulf and Iran. While many Aussies seem to have... issues... with the Brits, can't see there being more than token support for deportation or internment for allied nationals. While not completely out of past character, this seems like something that would be adopted to deal with a massive flood of refugees from the other direction, like Asia, Africa and the Middle East. Probably you should emphasise how the possibly hundreds of thousands of refugees from those areas would be dealt with. Also, the Aussies would likely see themselves (with considerable justification) as being the leading Commonwealth nation, if not the equal to the UK's leadership in historical terms than at least surpassing them in a current practical sense. (Not that I have a problem with this, like I said, the Australians would be in a great position overall.)

I forgot all about the Indonesian war; I think the regional stabilizer might be Thailand (remember, they have a carrier, too!), and if they could come to some co-defense agreement with Australia they'd have the Indian Ocean and SE asia more or less secured.

As for Japan supporting a unified government, it's my opinion that as more and more nations make the transition to civilian governments I see political support switching to the US federal government from the US military. Not out of some deeper understanding of Constitutional law or moral judgment on who's right or wrong, but simply on the principle that as civilian governments they don't want to give their own military forces the idea that their loyalty is optional, and they gotta stick together.

All-in-all, great work!

Tony

Depending on what elements were active in Japan I could see them swinging towards attempting regional hegemony, but not for a couple decades. Right now they've got 30 million starving and half that many virtually homeless after being smacked around by Soviet nukes.

So in the long run you foresee the low-intensity Civil War just kind of petering out?

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

First, thanks for the welcome, all!

So in the long run you foresee the low-intensity Civil War just kind of petering out?

RakJPz,

Hey, I run a sit-down Hackmaster 4e game, so that's a dead parallel licenced update of a long-dead game (AD&D 1st ed.).

American politics is always a touchy subject. Mere mention of the US government (past, current or fictional) tends to reflexively provoke a strong degree of ambivalence if not contempt. With largely any avoidance of open warfare between the factions, any "civil war" as such has already largely petered out. It's hard to say how the situation ends up (I can't recall the resolution in AD2300 or if that's considered canon) but it goes on for a while without all-out civil war breaking out.

Tony

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by helbent4

RakJPz,

Hey, I run a sit-down Hackmaster 4e game, so that's a dead parallel licenced update of a long-dead game (AD&D 1st ed.).

American politics is always a touchy subject. Mere mention of the US government (past, current or fictional) tends to reflexively provoke a strong degree of ambivalence if not contempt. With largely any avoidance of open warfare between the factions, any "civil war" as such has already largely petered out. It's hard to say how the situation ends up (I can't recall the resolution in AD2300 or if that's considered canon) but it goes on for a while without all-out civil war breaking out.

Tony

Right, right...well, I'm not really going to delve too much into the political situation back home (as it were) before dealing with a lot of European campaigning first.

Heck there's a lot of adventuring to be done in Escape from Kalisz, much less the whole of Europe.

[Targan]

IIRC MilGov and CivGov officially reunite in 2020 (according to the T:2300 backstory which is theoretically T2K canon).

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I forgot all about the Indonesian war; I think the regional stabilizer might be Thailand (remember, they have a carrier, too!), and if they could come to some co-defense agreement with Australia they'd have the Indian Ocean and SE asia more or less secured.

That's actually a pretty good suggestion. IRL Australia has a good relationship with Thailand.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

IIRC MilGov and CivGov officially reunite in 2020 (according to the T:2300 backstory which is theoretically T2K canon).

ah; good to know.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

That's actually a pretty good suggestion. IRL Australia has a good relationship with Thailand.

I just figured it made good sense; with a relatively intact military Australia and Thailand could stabilize the whole region, and as noted Thailand practically has a blue-water Navy of the first order post Twilight War.

But again, I'm getting ahead of myself.

[headquarters]

good to have you - interesting perspectives on the war and so on.

happy new year !

[General Pain]

T2K is definantly not dead.

I'm glad to say the Norway-group at this forum is gonna have a F2F-session in 8-9 days...

1 day with my own MERC campaign
1 day with HQ's T2K campaign....

Location:
GP's pad in Tiger City.

As said earlier a lot of old games still lumbers about in the far corners of the earth..last night me and my fiance played AD&D 2e. for 4-5 hours

To all @ the forum

Have a blast at New Years Eve.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by General Pain

T2K is definantly not dead.

To all @ the forum

Have a blast at New Years Eve.

Planning on it! Have laid in a nice selection of fireworks for the kiddies!

[Grimace]

I contemplated fireworks for New Years, but considering it's supposed to be -5 degrees F (that's -20 for all of you using Celsius) during the day and wind chills to -20 F, with the night being about twelve degrees colder, I think I'm going to pass on being outside.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Targan View Post
IIRC MilGov and CivGov officially reunite in 2020 (according to the T:2300 backstory which is theoretically T2K canon).

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

ah; good to know.

RakJPz,

You know, in my opinion the whole MILGOV/CIVGOV thing was handled in such a goofy manner in T2K and T:2300/AD2300. To an extent I don't mind because at least in the Earth/Cyberpunk sourcebook Canada is the leading nation in North America (yay us?), but it just seems wacky the Yanks can't get it together politically for 20 bloody years.

In the process and as a consequence, they permanently lose pretty much their southern tier of states to Mexico (or goes back to Mexico, whatever, but I don't have access to my T2300/AD2300 books). Seriously?

Some interesting information I dug up on the Great Game:

http://stalexone.tripod.com/2300gg2.htm

Seems outdated since 2000, but some interesting information on the rules of the Great Game, or at least the rationale.

Tony

[Panther Al]

Ah, fireworks. Yep, going to do my now locally infamous demo of why a pyro should never be given a wal-mart gift card. Have a friend who can mimmick voices pretty well, thinking he might have to do the voice over "Burn Notice" style: "Two great things about non-dairy cream, one its non fattening, but the really great thing is that it makes a great explosive..."

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Ah, fireworks. Yep, going to do my now locally infamous demo of why a pyro should never be given a wal-mart gift card. Have a friend who can mimmick voices pretty well, thinking he might have to do the voice over "Burn Notice" style: "Two great things about non-dairy cream, one its non fattening, but the really great thing is that it makes a great explosive..."

Planning on keeping things hopping for the NYE party...I managed to acquire several artillery simulators.....