Poland in WWII

[dragoon500ly]

I know its dated, but is intresting just how big a role Poland played in WWII in spite of being conquered in 1939....

Following the surrender, those Polish soldiers who did not intern themselves in Hungary and Romania made their way to France. From this, and with the enlistment of Polish citizens already living outside the country, they rebuilt the Polish Army.

The first unit to be organized was a Mountain Brigade (1st Independent Highland Brigade) intended to join the Allied forces being sent to aid Finland. When the Finns stuck a bargain with the Russians, the brigade was diverted to join the Norwegian campaign and served mostly around Narvik in 1940.

At the outbreak of the German Offensive in May, 1940, two Polish Infantry Divisions (1st and 2nd) were serving at the front and two additional Infantry Divisions (the 3rd and 4th) were in the process of being equipped by the French. A Cavalry Brigade (the 10th) was also being formed.

The 1st Polish Grenadier Division was badly cut up serving as the rearguard for French forces retreating from the Saar region. The 2nd Polish Rifle Division retreated into Switzerland with other French troops and was interned there. The 3rd Polish Rifle Divison and 10th Polish Mechanized Cavalry Brigade were destroyed in the Battle of France and the 4th Polish Rifle Divison managed to make it to a port for evacuation to England.

The fall of France meant that those Polish troops escaping from internment in Hungary and Romania had nowhere to go. The escape route they used ran through the French-controlled territories of Syria and Lebanon and a Polish formation was established in Lebanon. With the fall of France, this unit (the Carpathian Brigade) made its way into Palestine and came under British control. It was retrained and requipped as a British infantry brigade and served with the Eighth Army from Operation Crusader on. As additional Polish troops, newly released from captivity in the Soviet Union, the brigade was withdrawn and used to help form the II Polish Corps.

As plans were made to release Polish POWs captured by the Russians, the Germans released the news that the Soviets had murdered Polish officers at Katyn. In outrage over the Soviet program to behead the Polish people by the murders of the military and political leadership, the Free Polish Government-in-exile (in London) cut all ties with the Soviet Union and ordered all troops in Russia to leave.

The Soviets quickly responded by setting up their own Polish Government-in-exile and formed its own Polish Army. The Polish POWs still under Russian control were given the choice of fighting for the Russians or remain in the POW camps until the end of the war. The Russians fielded:

First Army
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
6th Infantry Divison
1st Armored Brigade
13th Tank Destroyer Regiment
4th Heavy Tank Regiment
13th Armored Artillery Regiment
2nd Howitzer Brigade
1st Mortar Brigade
25th SP Artillery Regiment
1st Independent Cavalry Brigade

Second Army
5th Infantry Division
7th Infantry Division
8th Infantry Division
9th Infantry Division
10th Infantry Division
16th Armored Brigade
24th Tan Destroyer Regiment
26th Antiaircraft Regiment

While Soviets were busy organizing their Polish Army, the II Polish Corps, reequipped by the British, were committed to action in Italy.

II Polish Corps
3rd Carpathian Infantry Divsion
5th Kresowa Infantry Division
2nd Independent Armored Brigade (later the 2nd Armored Division)
Carpathian Lancers (recce regiment)
2nd Polish Commando
7th Horse Artillery Regiment
9th Field Artillery Regiment
10th Medium Artillery Regiment
11th Medium Artillery Regiment
7th Antitank Regiment (SP)

The Polish forces which fled to England in 1940 soon found themselves reorganzied into two new formations, the 1st Armored Division and the 1st Parachute Brigade. The 1st Polish Armored Division fought with the First Canadian Army. The 1st Polish Airborne Brigade had been raised for a proposed airdrop on Warsaw, which was never carried out. It found its moment of glory during its participation in Operation Market Garden.

Not too shabby for a country that 'gave up' in 1939!

[Mohoender]

You forget about navy and air force. The Poles were operating several naval units, including a cruiser and destroyers.

In addition, they were extremely active in the air force, first with the French and then with the British after the capitulation of France.

In France the Polish air force numbered 7990 men with the "Varsovie Group" quickly becoming operationnal and destroying 56 ennemy aircrafts. Further squadrons were constituted beofre june 1940. As a matter of fact, one of these squadrons was located at Fayence (3 miles from my place), using Caudron C-714.

When France capitulated in June, 6000 of these 8000 men left France for Britain through Spain and Gibraltar (as a point of comparison, only 400 out of the 10.000 Frenchmen evacuated at Dunkirk chose to remain in UK).

At first, the British were reluctant to use them but by August 1940 they had constituted 6 squadrons: 4 bombers and 2 fighters (302 "Poznan") and (303 "Kosziusco"). During the battle of England they will destroy 201 aircrafts out of the 1733 lost by the Luftwaffe (135 for the sole 303 "Kosziusco"). All over the war, Polish pilots will have destroyed no less than 1120 aircrafts (including these destroyed over Poland and France).

A last point, the Czech were quite involved as well.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

A last point, the Czech were quite involved as well.

The film Dark Blue World was about Czech pilots flying for the British during WWII. The main character ends up in prison in Czechoslovakia after the war because of his wartime service with the RAF (the Communist regime deemed him to have been corrupted by western ideology). Good film IMO.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

The film Dark Blue World was about Czech pilots flying for the British during WWII. The main character ends up in prison in Czechoslovakia after the war because of his wartime service with the RAF (the Communist regime deemed him to have been corrupted by western ideology). Good film IMO.

I haven't seen it but I'll try to find it. I think that the same occurs to the Poles and that partly explains the large importance of Polish/Czech community in France. My first wife was of Polish descent with her family coming to France in 1948, a member of our government is a Kosciuzco, and the same can be said about our president (also he is Hungarian).

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

You forget about navy and air force. The Poles were operating several naval units, including a cruiser and destroyers.

In addition, they were extremely active in the air force, first with the French and then with the British after the capitulation of France.

In France the Polish air force numbered 7990 men with the "Varsovie Group" quickly becoming operationnal and destroying 56 ennemy aircrafts. Further squadrons were constituted beofre june 1940. As a matter of fact, one of these squadrons was located at Fayence (3 miles from my place), using Caudron C-714.

When France capitulated in June, 6000 of these 8000 men left France for Britain through Spain and Gibraltar (as a point of comparison, only 400 out of the 10.000 Frenchmen evacuated at Dunkirk chose to remain in UK).

At first, the British were reluctant to use them but by August 1940 they had constituted 6 squadrons: 4 bombers and 2 fighters (302 "Poznan") and (303 "Kosziusco"). During the battle of England they will destroy 201 aircrafts out of the 1733 lost by the Luftwaffe (135 for the sole 303 "Kosziusco"). All over the war, Polish pilots will have destroyed no less than 1120 aircrafts (including these destroyed over Poland and France).

A last point, the Czech were quite involved as well.

Actually, I didn't forget about the Polish Air Force and Navy, I simply didn't have firm details when I first posted. I'm a former ground pounder so my focus is on the services I know best...narrow minded I know, but what the hay!

When the Poles first arrived in England, the British Army was scrambling to requip its own forces following the Dunkirk evacuation, so most of the Poles were posted as garrison troops in Scotland. Since a lot of the Poles who fought for the Western Allies remained in the west, if you flip through the Scottish phone directories....you will see a lot of names starting with 'Mac' and a lot of names ending in 'ski'...

[Legbreaker]

After the war though the Poles were generally treated like a second unwelcome class. Many Poles returned to Poland, not because they felt they had a bright future back home, nor any real ties to the land, but more from frustration that they simply weren't being given a fair go in Britain.
I can't say what percentage went back and how many stayed to suffer through the insults and general indifference though.

[dragoon500ly]

All too true, but a lot of the Poles that went back suffered at the hands of the communist party...

So basically it sucked to be in the West AND East...

And please don't get me started on the British treatment of the Cossacks!

[Legbreaker]

It's this poor treatment by the west that I can really see the Communists playing on to turn the population against them. Yes there were the various uprisings prior to the outbreak of WWIII, however once hostilities commenced, I can really see the eastern propaganda machine really ramping up and using issues like this to keep the Poles (and Czechs, etc) from defecting.

[dragoon500ly]

Sort of the perils of aiding the West sort of thing....

But considering how much the Poles just love Russians.....

I think there may be a lot of passive resistance...not to mention the occasional FO getting his grids wrong and dropping a BM21 battalion fire on top of a Russian regiment...

[Legbreaker]

I'm sure that would happen from time to time, but I'm also sure the Soviets would ensure they had some reliable people in positions of power within the Polish military. Both the KGB and GRU would have agents seeded throughout all the Pact militaries and civilian governments, enough that any organised rebellion would result in a few officers and politicians having "heart attacks in their sleep", and so on....

Even the rumour of Soviet agents within the ranks may be enough to keep them in line. Somebody may actually die from a true accident or illness but the rumour mill turns it into a Soviet (or even Nato) assassination.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Even the rumour of Soviet agents within the ranks may be enough to keep them in line. Somebody may actually die from a true accident or illness but the rumour mill turns it into a Soviet (or even Nato) assassination.

Nothing as ever been able to keep them in line. Most if not every leaks in the Warsaw Pact had come from Poland. Their main problem comes from a population down to 9 million. This means that less than 25% of the Poles had survived in what is with no doubt the most damaged European country. Thereofre, they would simply not care anymore.

[Legbreaker]

I tend to think that a few assassinations in the ranks will keep the bulk of the Poles in check...
There will be a few instances of rebellion, but the Soviets will be sure to quash them immediately. It's not like the Soviets will be holding back either.

[Mohoender]

You might be right. However, I think we both forgot something I just relized. In all cases Germany is the key and you know what is said about the ennemy of my ennemy. It is even more true if you play v2.2 where Poland came under attack by Germany. In this case, there is virtually no chance to have the poles turning on those who helped them (namely the Soviets).

Of course, what I'm saying here only concerns the legal government of Poland. People and isolated units might have much different agenda.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that Germany is the key and often overlooked by many.

With Germany being the agressor (yet again!) the Poles aren't likely to be switching sides any time soon, even though their "allies" the Soviets hadn't exactly been the nicest of people to them.

The entry of the bulk of NATO on the German side would likely turn public opinion against them as well.

As the war progressed however, it is possible some small towns may change their opinion, but only in the areas Nato troops spent significant time in and were well behaved. If the Nato units misbehaved on the other hand....

Nato only occupied the bulk of Poland for a relatively short period of time. The German / Poland border was crossed in April 1997 and the Soviet / Poland border in early July. Just days later the leading units were nuked and the retreat back to Germany began. The seige of Warsaw was lifted on the 15th of September and most of Nato's forces had withdrawn across the German border sometime around October 1997 (give or take a month or so).

Given that central Poland was occupied from only mid June to mid September (3 months), it seems unlikely that Nato would have had a lot of time to change the minds of the majority of Poles (the east was occupied for only days). However, in the west of the country, where German is a comon language, it's quite possible there would be a significant number of western (specifically German) supporters.

Why would three months not have been long enough to turn public opinion? Probably due to the war still raging a few hundred short miles away to the east. Much of Nato's energies would be focused squarely on the ongoing hostilities, commanders knowing full well that unless the USSR was beaten before China collapsed, they'd be hard pressed to hold the line, let alone win the war. There'd be precious few resources available to devote to propaganda behind the lines.

[Abbott Shaull]

From what I remember there were many towns, villages, and cities with a civilian population that was quite impressed with the way local NATO troops behaved. It is one of the reason why B Troop/1st Squadron of 116th ACR was more or less welcome with open arms. This with the Americans leaving a couple nuclear packages as going away gift in a city in the area.

The Soviets on the other hand wouldn't fare well with the local population even if the Germans were considered the aggressors at the start of the war. They were popped off their share of Nukes to decimate the fleeing NATO units. Which would reinforce in some cases what the Polish High Command had always feared since 1979, that during the war-game in which the Soviets introduce that the Americans and NATO had started to nuke units along Vistula River that were in transit to the front. Many Poles had doubted that the Americans would be the the ones using Polish property to slow reinforcements.

Kinda like the West German government always worried who would use the nukes in their territory. There are fair amount argument that if the Soviet got close to the Rhine River that French would strike to stem the flow of the Pact forces to her borders. While others who had knowledge of the man-pack nukes that US had as well as fear that the UK would use nukes to stem the tide at various transportation hubs in West Germany.

The lucky ones were the East Germans. If NATO had used to Nukes to stem the tide of troops getting to the front, well odds were they would look at place before the Elbe River. With large Pact force surround the West Berlin, they wouldn't want to use nukes in there in V1 because their forces would be at ground zero.

As for all other pre-war Pact members it would be mix bag, with how the Soviet or NATO troops would be treated. If NATO troops behaved themselves, I can see lot of communities wanting to support them. Yet, Hungary and Czechoslovakia would look at NATO with some disdain since NATO sat and did nothing in 1956 and 1968. Rest of the Pact, I think would be more willing to turn against the Pact more quickly. Many of these countries had very weak Military.

Next one has to look at how Soviet rated many of their Pact Allies. It is ironic that many Polish units were equipped with equipment that was the latest technology in the 1960s. The one exception was the 7th Marine Division that was deemed reliable and equipped to support the Soviet push to Denmark or else where on the Baltic. Germans were general equipped the best with equipment on par with their Soviet counterpart, since they were considered the most loyal. Czech and Hungary units were only equipped since they had been shown and still remember what happens to countries who don't remain loyal to Moscow and their closeness to American troops.

Rest of the Pact, none were as loyal as the Germans, but their loyalty wasn't much of the problem since these troop only had support Soviets that would attack Turkey, Greece, and Italy. If they decide to switch sides, the Soviets would gobble them up as their second and third echelon forces move out the Ukraine to their designated fronts. Would it slow the first echelon, yeah, but they were in much better position than Hitlers forces were in 1941 diverted from their invasion of the Soviet Union by some 6 weeks to over run these countries that weren't already allies with Germany at the time.

Just some thoughts.

[HorseSoldier]

The Polish 1st Armored Division in the Falaise Gap is a topic that just about begs for a well done big Hollywood-style epic. I suppose it's too obscure, which is a shame.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

They were popped off their share of Nukes to decimate the fleeing NATO units. Which would reinforce in some cases what the Polish High Command had always feared since 1979, that during the war-game in which the Soviets introduce that the Americans and NATO had started to nuke units along Vistula River that were in transit to the front. Many Poles had doubted that the Americans would be the the ones using Polish property to slow reinforcements.

Do not forget that NATO implemented a scorched earth policy using nukes in their 1997 withdrawal. This would account for at least 50% of the destruction, and quite possibly more.
Although the Soviets were equipped and had trained for a nuclear battlefield, not having to use gas masks, etc is always preferred in the assault. It's far more likely the withdrawing Nato forces, who did not expect to be advancing through the radioactive wastelands they were creating, used the majority of nukes in this phase of the war.

This is certainly not going to endear the majority of Poles to the western forces (it's not going to heap the Soviets either, but at least they get the time to apply their propaganda machine over the next few years).

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The Polish 1st Armored Division in the Falaise Gap is a topic that just about begs for a well done big Hollywood-style epic. I suppose it's too obscure, which is a shame.

It's sorta like watching A Bridge Too Far and hearing somebody ask what side the people with the blue berets and funny accent are supposed to be on.

And the Poles in Italy?!?! I've actually been accused of making that up!

Sadly, the study of history in the U.S. and especially military history is looked upon much the way that Victorian England stuided sex...everyone knows it happens, but if nobody discusses the horrid thing, then it will go away.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And the Poles in Italy?!?! I've actually been accused of making that up!

Not at all, the Polish 2nd Corp was in the peninsula. The Poles were fighting at Monte Cassino and actually were the first to enter the abbey (raising the Polish flag there). However, unlike what you can find somewhere on the Web, they didn't take it all by themselves (still they had lost around 4000 men in the battle).

The French army did brake the stalemate. Again, the French army doesn't mean the French but mostly the Moroccans and Algerians fighting under French colors.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Again, the French army doesn't mean the French but mostly the Moroccans and Algerians fighting under French colors.

The French themselves having previously surrendered to a passing dog.

Seriously though, the French that did continue to fight played a big part in the eventual Allied victory. It's also not like as a nation they had much choice in WWII, what with the sudden appearance of German armour in their streets and being completely caught out of position up around Belgium.

[simonmark6]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

After the war though the Poles were generally treated like a second unwelcome class. Many Poles returned to Poland, not because they felt they had a bright future back home, nor any real ties to the land, but more from frustration that they simply weren't being given a fair go in Britain.
I can't say what percentage went back and how many stayed to suffer through the insults and general indifference though.

Interestingly enough, this wasn't the experience of my family or the ex-Polish community in my town. At the end of the war there were seventy Polish servicemen billeted in the village, my maternal grandfather was one of them. The local community insisted that the men that had helped defend their country had a home here and indeed they raised the money to bring over as many of the polish families as they could once it became clear that the Soviets weren't going to move out of Poland.

In fact, the local Catholic Church still employs at least one Polish speaking priest to serve the needs of the older members of the community. True, our village may be atypical, it certainly was in WW1 but not all Poles were treated as second class citizens.

[Rainbow Six]

Probably also worth mentioning the Polish Home Army, which fought against the Germans in occupied Poland, and was considered to be an official part of the Polish Armed Forces (and even acknowledged as such by the Germans after the 1944 Warsaw Rising). Several sources quote its strength as being somewhere around the 400,000 mark and credit it with tieing down several German Divisions.