OT Earthquake/Nuclear Reactor Meltdown

[Cdnwolf]

Anyone with relatives affected by the earthquake in Japan? Very scary with the nuclear reactor possibly going China Syndrome...

[dragoon500ly]

A couple of old friends stationed in Korea are the only ones I know even close to the area.

As of the latest news reports, we have two explosions at two different reactors. From the very limited news reports, both were suffering with poor or no coolant flow. The reactor operators reportedly vented hydrogen and this was what created the two explosions.

I'm puzzled and deeply concerned about initial reports that enough radiation was being leaked from one of the units in an hour that equaled the amount the local population absorbed in a year. This was followed up by reports that the radiation leaks had sharply dropped.

That's the latest news as of 3:00am this morning....since then its been nothing but rehash...

[Legbreaker]

My next wife is Japanese and her family is reported to be all ok. Phone contact was impossible but the internet was still up and running.

Another friend's family are in the north of the country but unaffected. Their house is rated to withstand Magnitude 10 quakes and they were not in the flooded areas. Life is going on as normal for them although there has been some reduction in available electricity and the public transport network has suffered somewhat - they can still get about in the local area, but longer distance travel is problematic.

Basically only those on the coast have been effected - everyone else is just getting on with it.

[Targan]

In my 9 to 5 job I am a media monitor. Any guesses on what I had to monitor all day long today? Its like nothing else has happened on the entire planet.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I heard this morning three rescue choppers from the Ronald Reagan flew through a radioactive plume and had to turn back.

[dragoon500ly]

The threat now involves two different nuclear power plants with a total of six reactors. The only confirmed reports is that there were two explosions, caused by the venting of hydrogen gas and steam from the reactors.

The need to vent was caused by damage to the emergency generators, thus causing coolant to not flow properly. There are also reports that the Japanese are using seawater to cool the containment vessels...this falls under the category of "a very, very, very not a cool thing to do", the reactors that are being saltwater-downed will have to be replaced completely.

The radiation stories are getting more and more confusing, there are reports of major leakage, promptly denied by the Japanese government, there are reports of US helicopters turning back due to radiation. Just based on the news channels I have been monitoring, there is an ever increasing panic about any hint of radiation.

So far, there are no confirmed reports of the containment vessels having been damaged, any radiation that is leaking is coming from the release of steam.

What has been confirmed so far is that the Japanese are evacuating everyone within 20 miles of the two power plants.

[Legbreaker]

The reactors that have been doused with seawater were due for decomissioning anyway. Reactor No 1 was supposed to have been pulled out of service last month.

[dragoon500ly]

I was wondering about that, one facility is 37 years old, the other is 40. But for a reactor that was supposed to be decomminished last month, what in the sam hill is it doing with active fuel?

And more importantly, when will they be able to start pulling fuel rods out...

[Legbreaker]

Next question please (and an easier one too!)...

My guess is that the was still in service due to high electricity demands throughout the country - it's replacement simply wasn't ready to go online.
There's talk now of rolling blackouts nationwide until at least April and at a guess I'd say there's likely to be a little less neon in Tokyo for some time to come after that.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I was wondering about that, one facility is 37 years old, the other is 40. But for a reactor that was supposed to be decomminished last month, what in the sam hill is it doing with active fuel?

And more importantly, when will they be able to start pulling fuel rods out...

And here is a useful side to my otherwise occassionally depressing job - I've read dozens of news reports and some of it contains useful information.

It is my understanding that at the Fukushima No.1 plant the fourth reactor at the complex was being used to store spent fuel rods. I guess they were winding down the whole plant, letting the fourth reactor go offline to use as storage. Unfortunately even the spent fuel rods require cooling and there was another hydrogen explosion inside the fourth reactor's containment building due to a cooling failure there.

[dragoon500ly]

Using an old reactor to store fuel rods....

I guess the management thinks having somebody sitting on a open keg of gun powder, chain smoking is a good idea too!

[Cdnwolf]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/us-22...-24520446.html

Good on the effect of radiation on the body... could work it into the game.

[kcdusk]

To be fair to the Japanese, and their slow decommissioning (after) useby date because the replacement wasnt ready & storage of rods in #4 ... its not surprising to people is it? Happens in the western world all the time. Projects dont run to the gant chart or timeline, over budget ect .... long lead time items not ordered ... items asked to run longer than there stamped service life.

Now, all this happening in the nuclear world where the worst case outcomes are so bad? Still not surprising in my view. And except for a nine point Ohhhh earthquake and tsunamia it probably all would have ended well.

If the reactors were 3 years old, would the situation be any different?

I have some questions though.

1. Theres 2 reactors going hot. If they go too hot is that like 2 nuclear bombs going off?

2. Would that set off the remaining 2?

3. Theres a nuclear site in california situated 8 miles (?) from a fault line, right on the coast. I'm not trying to throw stones or anything, but the facility is probably going to withstand an earthquake. But what about a 10m wave? Or even a 9.5 earthquake within a mile or two of the reactor?

4. Some reports came out tonight that the jap govt has asked for a 30km exclusion zone, the USA has asked for a 80km zone and Franch and Germany have said they think everyone should leave the island of Japan altogether! Um, theres no question here.

[Legbreaker]

My understanding, limited though it may be, is that reactors don't blow up like a bomb. Yes there's the odd explosion from time to time, but they're caused more due to pressure build up in the coolant system rather than a nuclear reaction.

Worst case is a meltdown. This will release one hell of a lot of radioactive material into the atmosphere and end up as fallout. It's this which is what all the techs etc are most afraid of - a blast would devastate the local (relatively) area but fallout will reach the world.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

This will release one hell of a lot of radioactive material into the atmosphere and end up as fallout. It's this which is what all the techs etc are most afraid of - a blast would devastate the local (relatively) area but fallout will reach the world.

Probably not. A lot of heat is required for any radiation to be carried into the atmosphere - and there isn't any or likely to be any in this situation.

If it doesn't get under control, the serious effects will most likely be a very localized problem. This won't be another Chernobyl.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Targan

In my 9 to 5 job I am a media monitor. Any guesses on what I had to monitor all day long today? Its like nothing else has happened on the entire planet.

Oh I bet the both Gulf Wars were fun to watch...lol

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Probably not. A lot of heat is required for any radiation to be carried into the atmosphere - and there isn't any or likely to be any in this situation.

If it doesn't get under control, the serious effects will most likely be a very localized problem. This won't be another Chernobyl.

That is correct. The Chernobyl reactors were a very different design to the Fukushima reactors. The biggest problems with Chernobyl as far as fallout was concerned were that Chernobyl's containment structures were not multi-layered and were pathetic; also Chernobyl used graphite control rods and it was those burning that carried such huge amounts of radioactive fallout into the atmosphere. A full-blown meltdown at Fukushima will heavily irradiate the site but airborne fallout will be much less severe and in any case will probably be blown out over the Pacific.

I'm very concerned about contamination of that coastline however. Much of that sea water they're pouring into the reactors is probably ending up back in the ocean, nastily irradiated.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Much of that sea water they're pouring into the reactors is probably ending up back in the ocean, nastily irradiated.

That thought had entered my mind as well when I first heard they were using sea water as emergency coolant. Mind you, a little radioactive water introduced into the ocean isn't likely to be a major concern when you think about the probable consequences of not using the water.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My understanding, limited though it may be, is that reactors don't blow up like a bomb. Yes there's the odd explosion from time to time, but they're caused more due to pressure build up in the coolant system rather than a nuclear reaction.

The explosions at Fukushima haven't been so much to do with pressure, they are a result of the extreme heat and chemical reactions with the fuel rod casings cracking the hydrogen out of the coolant water; once the hydrogen has enough oxygen in the air mixed with it it becomes explosive; that is what has blown parts of the containment structures apart.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Worst case is a meltdown. This will release one hell of a lot of radioactive material into the atmosphere and end up as fallout. It's this which is what all the techs etc are most afraid of - a blast would devastate the local (relatively) area but fallout will reach the world.

A meltdown at Fukushima won't cause that much of a blast but it will result in 3000 degree celsius enriched uranium oxide melting through the bottom of the pressure vessel and then the containment structure; the oft postulated (though never yet seen) "China syndrome" would be if the superheated fuel pellet molten slag melted through the containment vessel and all the way down to the water table; that theoretically could cause a catastrophic steam explosion and contamination of the water table, atmospheric fallout or both.

[Legbreaker]

Basically then the situation could get VERY nasty but we're still not going to see a nuclear chain reaction and explosion.

Lets all hope they can get them cooled down and sorted out quickly. I for one would rather not find out just how bad it can get.

[Grimace]

These reactors will NOT blow up like a nuclear bomb. Not designed that way, not refined to the point of being able to do that, and -one of the biggest factors- the reactors are not operating so the worst that could happen is a meltdown.

Worst case scenario the reactors melt down and you have radiation contaminating hundreds (if not thousands) of sqare kilometers. This includes land and sea. Anything drifting on the wind will be limited to heavy metals and short half-life isotopes that really won't travel with enough concentration to be a threat to anyone out side of the immediate effect zone in Japan.

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that there are two plants. Even the people I know in Japan are saying there's problems with ONE nuclear plant, containing (I believe) 4 reactors. Three of the reactors were "live" in that they have fuel in them. The fourth was being used as storage of spent fuel.

In terms of using sea water to cool, consider this. If they don't use seawater to cool the reactors, then the cores melt down and the seawater is contaminated anyway as well as a lot of land around the area. So the alternative of not using the sea water is much worse.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Grimace

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that there are two plants. Even the people I know in Japan are saying there's problems with ONE nuclear plant, containing (I believe) 4 reactors. Three of the reactors were "live" in that they have fuel in them. The fourth was being used as storage of spent fuel.

It is true that there are serious problems with one plant, Fukushima Daiichi. All four of its reactors are in trouble, some worse than others. Even the Number 4 reactor at Fukushima Daiichi, the one which is being used to store spent fuel rods, is in trouble because they are having problems keeping the spent fuel cool. But there have also been (less serious) problems with two other nuclear plants, Onagawa which has three reactors and suffered a radiation leak several days ago, and Tokai Daini which had a main cooling pump failure but has been kept under control once auxiliary cooling pumps were brought online.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all here, its just that monitoring the news is my bread and butter and I'm probably exposed to more news and current affairs than most people.

Originally Posted by Grimace

In terms of using sea water to cool, consider this. If they don't use seawater to cool the reactors, then the cores melt down and the seawater is contaminated anyway as well as a lot of land around the area. So the alternative of not using the sea water is much worse.

No argument here. Just pointing out that there is no "good" outcome at this point. Just varying degrees of bad.

[pmulcahy11b]

Is it me or does the Japanese government seem to be overly-downplaying the incident?

[Grimace]

Would you rather they say the sh*t is gonna hit the fan and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it? Do you want widescale panic with people thinking they're going to die a radioactive death in two weeks and even more panic shopping going on in Japan than there already is?

They're trying to deal with earthquake issues, they've got THOUSANDS of dead from the tsunami and they're focused on trying to find any survivors, trying to get supplies to those that need it, trying to STOP a nuclear meltdown and trying to keep their people relatively calm through all of this.

Think about the panic that is going around America over a radioactive plume originating from Japan (when there's less than 1% chance of that ever happening) and then multiply that, couple it with all the problems from the tsunami and maybe you can see why they're downplaying it a little.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but when you consider all the problems more panic would cause, it makes sense that they downplay all that they can.

[Legbreaker]

The Japanese government has a history of downplaying the effects of internal disasters. Truth usually gets out and makes them look like fools though.
It's a cultural thing.

[kcdusk]

Its being reported today that the first contaminated food has been found 30km from the nuclear plant.

Spinich and milk 30km from the plant have been tested and found to have higher levels of radiation than government regs allow.

Not sure how high the readings are or what the upper limit is.

Food might still be OK to consume even with the high reading assuming the govt limit is "conservative". A bit like drinking milk thats a day past its used by date ... its not automatically sour.

[dragoon500ly]

And the first reports of Salt Riots are coming in. It seems that a lot of the commercial salt sold in Japan/Korea/China is through evaping sea water. Rumors are flying that the ocean is heavily irradiated and there is panic buying of what salt is available....

There are still no reports of any large-scale leakage...too be sure, using seawater to cool the reactors down is certainly a last ditch effort...but the time and tides just aren't right for the Sea of Japan and the Pacific to be contaiminated.....at least not yet.


You know, the older I get, the more convinced I am that the normal human condition is running around in circles, screaming ones head off.

[kcdusk]

Given the nucear problem - and its impact on the world through leaked radiation and water contamination. Should the world be doing more? Surely the USA, Russian or someone has heavy lift helecopters to dump more water than what Japan has been able too?

Or generators or extension cords or whatever is required to get power to the facilities waterpumps?

I guess before "the world" can do anything, Japan has to ask for help, right?

[Grimace]

I don't know if Japan is really short of heavy helicopters for dumping water. I saw a news clip that showed a Chinook doing a water drop. That's about all that the U.S. could send over. Sure, Russia has some heavier helicopters (and technically the Jolly Green or the Sky Crane could be bigger but there's not many of those around any more) but I'm pretty sure Japan is using as heavy a helicopter as they've got.

And you're probably partly correct in that a fair bit of help isn't provided simply because Japan hasn't asked for it. I think that would make them "lose face" by admitting they can't handle their own problems.