Prisons

[kato13]

I was thinking about new resources to add to my Morrow/T2k resource map and was thinking that Prisons would be an interesting Post Apocalyptic resource.

Sturdy construction and easy to defend.
Self sufficient in many ways (kitchens, laundry, workshops, generators etc.)
Small Arms cache.
Potential Workforce.

I was wondering if anyone has done any gaming in a prison scenario or had any thoughts in general about what prisons would look like in the T2k world.

[jester]

Well in my view I have always thought prisons were made hard to get out of, and not that hard to get in. I think they are marginaly better as a defensive post than a small village, maybe worse in some cases.

Prisons tend to be isolated, which could make it hard for an enemy to attack, but it also makes it hard to keep it maintained with supplies. Kinda like an old Castle.

And unless they are like the old time prisons with tall stone or concrete walls which would be vulnerable to explosives, you have marginal defense capability.

Most prisons now have tall chainlink and barbed wire fenses. <a good number at least> their plus is a good survelance system and guard towers, but this can also be targets, and if you were to come under attack, a machinegun or rocket launcher would make short work of them, or sustained fire could keep the guards from either reaching or leaving the towers. How long could a man sit in a tower without food or water, and taking fire? It wouldn't be long before he made a break for it.

For me, it would depend on the prison, and of course the status of the inmates. Imagine being attacked by marauders. And you have inmates. That would suck, having basicaly a two front fight.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by jester

Well in my view I have always thought prisons were made hard to get out of, and not that hard to get in. I think they are marginaly better as a defensive post than a small village, maybe worse in some cases.

Prisons tend to be isolated, which could make it hard for an enemy to attack, but it also makes it hard to keep it maintained with supplies. Kinda like an old Castle.

And unless they are like the old time prisons with tall stone or concrete walls which would be vulnerable to explosives, you have marginal defense capability.

Most prisons now have tall chainlink and barbed wire fenses. <a good number at least> their plus is a good survelance system and guard towers, but this can also be targets, and if you were to come under attack, a machinegun or rocket launcher would make short work of them, or sustained fire could keep the guards from either reaching or leaving the towers. How long could a man sit in a tower without food or water, and taking fire? It wouldn't be long before he made a break for it.

For me, it would depend on the prison, and of course the status of the inmates. Imagine being attacked by marauders. And you have inmates. That would suck, having basicaly a two front fight.

I guess my opinion of prisons is represented by the older prisons like the Joliet Prison. Against small arms it would hold up pretty well.



As for the status of the prisoners post TDM, I am assuming that the majority of prisoners guilty of Rape and above would be killed by guards and most others would be released once it was realized they could not be taken care of. Though I bet thousands starved to death in their cells nationwide.

[jester]

Thats kinda what I was thinking too, the older walled prisons would make cool castles. But they would have the issues of castles of old, siege and artillery, and today rockets and such.

However, with a prison and prisoners you have what it takes to make your own fiefdom complete with labor, if you have the resoruces like land and water. Then just do a chain gang, or like the platation days, hire out your work gangs to local farmers and other area lords, they are required to guard, house and feed them, and you get a percentage of whatever the labor produces, if they work farming you get a percentage of the crops that result, clearing rubble, well then take it in fuel, gold or food. Working in a factory, either the end product, or what is paid for the product.

Then, you could also use labor as a comodity, city X has a labor credit of 10 labor months, city Y owes city W 100 labor credits, and they can exchange them among one another. Figure a labor credit was the work of a healthy man for one month. It would be an interesting way to do it.

[Mohoender]

I think Jest is right and what happened here a few years ago proved it. One of our prison was attacked with military weapons (explosive, Anti tank rockets, Machineguns...). Within a matter of minutes the guys had entered it with no one capable of doing much and the prisoner was taken out.

Two or three weeks ago a prisoner was shot dead by a sniper. Again the prison personnel couldn't do anything. They are made to avoid escape not to face assault.

Of course kato you might have a point, but prison would need much transformation to stand any attack.

[jester]

The thing going for a prison is it is built to house large numbers of people. And it has a large number of people.

So, if you want to make it secure on the outside well, you have the labor to do it. I think a set of simple defenses could be made in a short amoung of time with the prisoners.

I am thinking a punji pit on the outside of the wire, a berm on the outside of that, with a fighting trench and another berm <I am big on a double berm as it can throw off rockets grenade rounds and observation> and then another punji pit around that, with a couple of bridges or as I call them choke points for access into the entances. And make them sunken roads to fuirther channel an attacker. And that would make it difficult and hopefully discourage attackers.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by kato13

I guess my opinion of prisons is represented by the older prisons like the Joliet Prison. Against small arms it would hold up pretty well.



As for the status of the prisoners post TDM, I am assuming that the majority of prisoners guilty of Rape and above would be killed by guards and most others would be released once it was realized they could not be taken care of. Though I bet thousands starved to death in their cells nationwide.

couldnt easily breach this with small arms only . Even mortars and hmgs or gls and you still would face that casulaty rate from storming the walls ..

Modern arty etc would change this of course -but most adversaries in the t2k world will not have such weaponry .from a stationary position like this cheap blackpowder artillery like mortars and howitzer could be used without the drawbacks from using such weapons in the field..

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

couldnt easily breach this with small arms only . Even mortars and hmgs or gls and you still would face that casulaty rate from storming the walls ..

Modern arty etc would change this of course -but most adversaries in the t2k world will not have such weaponry .from a stationary position like this cheap blackpowder artillery like mortars and howitzer could be used without the drawbacks from using such weapons in the field..

I disagree, you overlook something, most firing position are turned toward the inside. You need quite some work to change this. I bet that you could put a lader on the outside wall without being threaten at all. The french prison that was attacked looked the same and the guys made a breach using explosives and RPGs of sorts. Once inside, they used submachine guns and assault rifles to silence the guards. They can become good defensive position but you need to work a lot before it becomes true.

I have made a rough translation of that events if that can help (I hope its good, at least understandable). It might be useful to identify the weakpoints and imagine what correction can be made to make your idea come true.

[jester]

Well using the picture above. Here is how I would take it down.

1.) A modern Rifle Company could take it with ease. Open up with mortars which will cause everyone to keep their heads down as well as chaos and confusion.

2.) Machineguns open up on the walls and guard towers.

3.) Aimed rifle fire eliminates any brave guards.

4.) 1 assault team moves within range of the rear left wall. This would include two rifle squads, each with a demotion team with satchell charges, or/and rocket like a SMAW to create a breach in the wall.

5.) Rifle squads act as security for the demolition teams who plant their charges and withdraw, or they take position and fire their rockets. Figure four charges or rockets whould make a breach. And then in goes the 2 assault squads, the rest of the company follows through.

6.) The first two squads secure the breach, and upper key postions and wait for the rest of their unit to arrive.

7.) Some of the machineguns who had been putting down cover fire displace and man positions inside the prison or guard towers, and they now have control of the prison yard.

8.) The rifle squads now move about taking down the strong points, using grenade rounds or rockets to defeat defensive strong points until the facility is captured.


The cool thing for an attacker on that facility is there is a roadway on high ground to the left of the complex so you can shoot down onto the walls and towers. And there are buildings and such which will provide cover for the assault teams as well.

And a breach of the wall the buildings adjacent do not look like cellblocks which is not what an attacking force wants to go into, they look like wherehouses of some sort. So they can occupy them regroup and press on their attack without the disruption of prisoners interfering or getting in the way.

From that point, they use buildings as cover, and with the covering fire from the captured towers they continue forward.

Anyhow, that would be my plan to take down that prison as it currently stands.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I know the storyline in the post-apocalyptic computer RPG, "Wasteland," had the Army take a prison and use it as a base. When the Army took over, they kicked the prisoners out.

Chuck M.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by kato13

I guess my opinion of prisons is represented by the older prisons like the Joliet Prison. Against small arms it would hold up pretty well.



As for the status of the prisoners post TDM, I am assuming that the majority of prisoners guilty of Rape and above would be killed by guards and most others would be released once it was realized they could not be taken care of. Though I bet thousands starved to death in their cells nationwide.

I remember in "Lucifer's Hammer," the sheriff's deputy went into thje local lockup and let all the prisoners go, he figured, they had families and the petty crimes they committed were not too major. There was one there that was held because he killed and raped a young woman, the deputy took a shotgun and shot him in the cell.

Chuck M.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

I remember in "Lucifer's Hammer," the sheriff's deputy went into thje local lockup and let all the prisoners go, he figured, they had families and the petty crimes they committed were not too major. There was one there that was held because he killed and raped a young woman, the deputy took a shotgun and shot him in the cell.

Chuck M.

Thats messy, he should just led him out back, then it would be much less of a mess to clean up.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by jester

Thats messy, he should just led him out back, then it would be much less of a mess to clean up.

True, but in the case of the book, everyone was moving to high ground because of flooding from a tsunami so the prison/jail was abandoned.

Chuck M.

[Mohoender]

I will make the opposing supposition. In case of revolution, war, or general civil mess, prisoners are usually set free: French revolution, Soviet revolution, 1944's liberation of Europe... That's even what was done in Iraq (by Saddam before U.S. troops arrived) and some of your troops are still running after them I believe.

Those who had done petty crimes just go home and a few do more petty crimes. The true psycho usually end up in the armies, special operations or as leading officers of unregullar or regullar so called troops (In fact bandits that take the opportunity of war to comit their crimes). War is great time for psycho and usually you have little serial killers acting in the time of wars (anyway not as such). I would expect several T2K marauder bands (a majority of them probably) to be led by one of those former convict.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I disagree, you overlook something, most firing position are turned toward the inside. You need quite some work to change this. I bet that you could put a lader on the outside wall without being threaten at all. The french prison that was attacked looked the same and the guys made a breach using explosives and RPGs of sorts. Once inside, they used submachine guns and assault rifles to silence the guards. They can become good defensive position but you need to work a lot before it becomes true.

I have made a rough translation of that events if that can help (I hope its good, at least understandable). It might be useful to identify the weakpoints and imagine what correction can be made to make your idea come true.

it would take work to make firing positions ,obstacles etc

but the towers and walls are good OPs , and indepth defenses could be made using positions inside the compound as well.

Obstacles etc could be placed outside the walls.

The reason the frens prison was overrun was that it was geared to keep people in and not out ,plus the guards probably lack training in fighting well armed opposition .

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by jester

Well using the picture above. Here is how I would take it down.

1.) A modern Rifle Company could take it with ease. Open up with mortars which will cause everyone to keep their heads down as well as chaos and confusion.

2.) Machineguns open up on the walls and guard towers.

3.) Aimed rifle fire eliminates any brave guards.

4.) 1 assault team moves within range of the rear left wall. This would include two rifle squads, each with a demotion team with satchell charges, or/and rocket like a SMAW to create a breach in the wall.

5.) Rifle squads act as security for the demolition teams who plant their charges and withdraw, or they take position and fire their rockets. Figure four charges or rockets whould make a breach. And then in goes the 2 assault squads, the rest of the company follows through.

6.) The first two squads secure the breach, and upper key postions and wait for the rest of their unit to arrive.

7.) Some of the machineguns who had been putting down cover fire displace and man positions inside the prison or guard towers, and they now have control of the prison yard.

8.) The rifle squads now move about taking down the strong points, using grenade rounds or rockets to defeat defensive strong points until the facility is captured.


The cool thing for an attacker on that facility is there is a roadway on high ground to the left of the complex so you can shoot down onto the walls and towers. And there are buildings and such which will provide cover for the assault teams as well.

And a breach of the wall the buildings adjacent do not look like cellblocks which is not what an attacking force wants to go into, they look like wherehouses of some sort. So they can occupy them regroup and press on their attack without the disruption of prisoners interfering or getting in the way.

From that point, they use buildings as cover, and with the covering fire from the captured towers they continue forward.

Anyhow, that would be my plan to take down that prison as it currently stands.

Well,as I said before -
it would take work to make firing positions ,obstacles etc

but the towers and walls are good OPs , and indepth defenses could be made using positions inside the compound as well.

Obstacles etc could be placed outside the walls.

If there is high ground overlooking it -well definently a disadvantage for the defenders -I cant see it on the picture though?

Anyways I guess I am saying that defending it with a rifle platoon or similar
is doable -but would take modificatiosn like making more and preferably concealed firing positions /ramparts and the making of obstacles outside and indepth defense inside .

Attacking a platoon in there with a company and the modifications in place -not a happy prospect...