OT - Terror Attack in Oslo

[General Pain]

Hi Everyone, just had to inform that me and my nearest friends and family is safe from the attack a couple of hours ago.

Hope everyone here is safe.

-General Pain

[kato13]

My first thoughts when I heard about it was the people I know from this group.

Glad to hear those closest to you were not directly effected.

My condolences to those lost and injured in your country.

May the investigation be swift and may justice come down hard on those responsible.

[Targan]

Another act of madness perpetrated against the innocent. My sympathies go out to the people of Oslo. And +1 to what kato said.

[kota1342000]

Glad You, your Family and Friends are safe, and I hope the best that can be expected for everyone in your corner of the planet. I have a strong feeling that Norwegians will stand up and not let violence like this scare you in the slightest.

[Webstral]

Very glad to hear that you are not physically involved. What a hard day for a noble nation!

[95th Rifleman]

We are spending all this bloody time and effort focussing on Islamic terrorist groups that some christian nutjob like this can slip through the cracks.

My heart goes out to the folks in Norway, it's a terrible and black day.

[James Langham]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and the whole nation of Norway.

"Do noot ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."

[Rainbow Six]

Deepest sympathies go to all those affected by this terrible act.

[Cdnwolf]

Deepest sympathy to all those families in mourning now. Just sickens me how this coward went after children and kids and not up against someone who could fight back. The death penalty is too quick for this guy. I think sometimes the Muslims have it right... let the victims families stone the guy to death...

[dragoon500ly]

My thoughts and prayers go to those victims of yet another senseless act of terrorism.

[Raellus]

My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Norway. Of all things, to target a youth summer camp... madness or pure evil.

[Griff]

Sorry to hear partner. As much as I'd like them to quickly bring the bastard(s) that did this to justice it doesn't help those who've suffered much. I hope the families have as little suffering as possible, the people who perpetrated this heinous act suffer a trillion times what these poor folks and your nation now has to endure. Take care partner.


Sua Sponte

[kcdusk]

Yes, sympathy to all those affected in Norway.

I hate the way the second paragraph i read about the guy was "he was obsessed with the PC game "Call of duty"", insinuating because he plays first person shooter games, thats why he was a nut. I dont play PC games, but C'mon!

The article said he was also a christian - but made no connection of his religion to his ideology.

I dont want to hi-jack the thread. My main point was I'd hate for someone on these boards to die and then read "they were obsessed by war, the apocolypse and their religion was "survivalism" just because they were involved with the roleplaying game or posted here.

[headquarters]

As far as we know all of us Norwegians here on the boards are safe. Naturally we are shook up - we have`nt experienced something like this since the German attack of april 9th 1940.



Thanks for your words of support - it means a lot. Many of you out there have had the same experience as us both in recent years and in conflicts before. I guess many of you know the feeling of disbelief and worry that set in.


Thankfully our nation seems to have come together and condemn the attack and show support in legion - regardless of creed and conviction.

[Legbreaker]

From what I've seen on the news, it seems like it was one man who's claiming to have had support from two other organisations. By "organisations" he could mean two other separate people or entire chains of them.

My thoughts are how is he going to get a fair trial? He's claimed responsibility however plead not guilty, which of course will necessitate a trial. We all know what the outcome of that will be, and by now everyone in the country will have heard of him and what's happened, so his best defence now could be to claim the inability of a fair trial coupled perhaps with insanity.

Although more guilty than anyone wants to believe, this monster might get off with little more than a slap on the wrist and a year or two of psychiatric treatment - and then somebody, perhaps a grieving parent, will put a bullet in him.

[natehale1971]

whats screwed up is that this guy will only get between 21 and 26 years in prison for this....

[Legbreaker]

IF they get prison at all. See my earlier post regarding impossibility of a fair trial and possible insanity defence.

They will be punished, that goes without saying, it's the form of the punishment that is yet to be determined. What's most ironic is the authorities now probably have to put more effort into protecting him from vengance than stopping him from escaping and doing it all again.

[Raellus]

What are the gun laws like in Norway? I've read that the attacker used a Glock pistol and there're photos circulating online of him wielding what looks like a tricked-out M14 rifle (it's a posed shot of him in a wetsuit taken from his manifesto or Facebook page or something).

It was my impression that most citizens in Norway are not permitted to own hi-cap automatic pistols or assault-type weapons? Is this incorrect? How'd the killer get a hold of all that firepower?

[Graebarde]

My question is how come he was able to shoot for an hour and a half?

As for getting a 'fair trial', let the evidence speak for itself. I'm not sure how the Norwegian judicial system is set up, but in the US they can have a change of venieu (sp) but Norway is pretty 'small/sparsely' populated and with all the media coverage already, there's probably NO place on planet earth that hasn't heard about the attrocity. do the crime, do the time. BTW does Norway even have capital punishment? And is the 26 years on each count? 26 x 90plus is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time for solitary confinement on bread and water.. once every three days.

[Legbreaker]

Most countries apply sentences concurrently rather than consecutively.
Therefore, if you get sentences of 5, 3, 7, and 10 years you only serve 10 years. If however you're later proven innocent of the 10 year crime but the others stand, you only serve 7.
If you somehow are sentenced again to a separate string of crimes, your sentence may begin at the time you entered custody for the original crimes, OR may start at the time of the second round of sentencing and run concurrently with the first.

Much fairer in some ways than serving 12 years of 20 terms of 6 months for minor offenses, but on the other hand a mass murderer could be out in just a decade or two....

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

And is the 26 years on each count?

From my understand the maximum sentence ANY person can get for ANY combination of crimes is 21 years. The caveat for that is that if the prisoner is still considered a danger they can be kept for an additional 5 years.

There is some argument at to whether additional 5 year periods can be added after the first one.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Although more guilty than anyone wants to believe, this monster might get off with little more than a slap on the wrist and a year or two of psychiatric treatment - and then somebody, perhaps a grieving parent, will put a bullet in him.

That's the thing isn't it? It is rare for a loved one of a murder victim to wait for venegence then snuff the perpetrator but occasionally it does happen. Each victim is likely to have at least several, perhaps dozens of deeply angry loved ones/friends etc. So in a case like this you've got hundreds, maybe thousands of friends and relatives who are really, really pissed off (not to mention very angry members of the public and even members of the prison population). I think the chances are strong that someone, sooner or later, is going to have a go at terminating Breivik.

Originally Posted by Raellus

What are the gun laws like in Norway? I've read that the attacker used a Glock pistol and there're photos circulating online of him wielding what looks like a tricked-out M14 rifle (it's a posed shot of him in a wetsuit taken from his manifesto or Facebook page or something).

It was my impression that most citizens in Norway are not permitted to own hi-cap automatic pistols or assault-type weapons? Is this incorrect? How'd the killer get a hold of all that firepower?

The media here has reported that the weapons used were legally owned and registered by Breivik.

[headquarters]

Firstly - if anyone of you heard/ read Glenn Beck of Fox News - that guy really enraged me by saying that the youth camp was some weird phenomenon using words like hitlerjugend to describe it. He is by all counts a vulgar,opportunist propagandist agitator as far as I am concerned. All I can say about him is : base. Also some of the coverage in Fox News was disrespectful to say the least. Journalists misrepresented the situation and Norways political stance on global affairs to an extent that can only be seen as intentional or at best unprofessional. This unfair and unbalanced journalism needs to be pointed out to the good folk in the audience. All of you who live over there know what it means when the world press get their crazy talk on in a situation like this.
( Rant over).

AS far as the trial and the penalty - I practice law here and I firmly believe that our system is constantly trying to achieve perfect justice - altough admittedly - no legal system ever will. The defendant will get a fair hearing and his defence is paid for by the state. He may choose whatever lawyer he wants given that that lawyer accepts the assignment. His lawyer in this case is a well known criminal lawyer that has worked major cases in the past. He will have the opportunity to appeal his sentence and any rulings made by the court at every step. Now, he has admitted to actually commiting the heinous acts, but he doesnt accept that he is legally or morally guilty stating that he is in a war like situation and that circumstance forced his hand. there will be a medical examination to decide wether or not he is fit for trial. If he is not deemed insane, he will stand, and given his confession and the evidence he will be convicted. Most likely he will recieve the maximum sentence of 30 years for terrorist related activity / crimes against humanity. If this statute is not applicable ( it might not be) , he will be tried as a common murderer and probably get the maximum penalty that is loosely translated as " Custody". It is our only real means of sentencing someone to actual lifeimprisonment. It means that he is sentenced to remand for 21 years in a high security facility and that his case will be revued by the court after that period of time and every 5 years thereafter to decide wether or not he is still a danger to society.

Gunlaws here are semi strict. All owners must be eligible meaning 18 years of age or 21 for hand guns, and purchase can only be made if you have a hunting license or atleast 6 months membership and 25 training sessions in a registered gun club. The calibers and makes of weapons are restricted
( no .454 or above, and semiauto long guns are only allowed from a list of app. 20 different makes including the AK type Arsenal, rhe Sig, and many AR platforms- the rifle used was most likely a Ruger Mini-14 - this is also allowed under the hunting license). A spec. gun safe is mandatory for all firearms owners. Magazine capacity hasnt been an issue here- So normal cap ( hi-cap) is freely available. There are no open/hidden carry allowances. If you go hunting open carry is allowed. Other transport demands firearms be disassembled and vital part/ammo kept segrated. Carry in public places is prohibited - this also goes for knives by and large.

I see that this will probably change. It is election year and the anti gun lobby will take this to town to get their way. I will not be surprised if it goes the way Britain did after Dunblane.( No privately owned firearms save for a few fowling pieces or deer rifles.) Although I am vehemently opposed to such measures, I cant see it ending in another way - although I retain hope that common sense will prevail. After all - guns dont kill people - people kill people.

As for the response of the police - I am yet undecided. Yes, the spent app. 1 hour 30 minutes before the apprehended the shooter. On the other hand they had to transported from the city to the island as the local police had no resources to tackle such an incident - it is a small rural place after all. Still I dont conclude that they were efficient enough. I need to see an after action report analyzis first.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Firstly - if anyone of you heard/ read Glenn Beck of Fox News - that guy really enraged me by saying that the youth camp was some weird phenomenon using words like hitlerjugend to describe it. He is by all counts a vulgar,opportunist propagandist agitator as far as I am concerned. All I can say about him is : base. Also some of the coverage in Fox News was disrespectful to say the least. Journalists misrepresented the situation and Norways political stance on global affairs to an extent that can only be seen as intentional or at best unprofessional. This unfair and unbalanced journalism needs to be pointed out to the good folk in the audience. All of you who live over there know what it means when the world press get their crazy talk on in a situation like this.
( Rant over).

I feel like I need to apologize on Beck's behalf. He's a national embarrassment.

Glenn Beck is not a journalist- he's a political pundit and rabble rouser. He's basically a far right, conservative mouthpiece, and one of the more extreme and outspoken ones at that. He has a bad case of verbal diarhea. He's constantly in trouble for making inane, innacurate, and/or offensive statements (usually all of the above). It is fair to say that absolutely everything that comes out of his mouth will have been filtered through his narrow worldview in order to serve a specific political purpose. This makes most of what he says wildly inaccurate. He was trying to paint the "socialist" party summer camp targetted by the shooter in the most unflattering light possible. He obviously wants to demonize that particular political demographic by comparing its youth program to the Nazi youth organizations of Hitler's Germany. Unfortunately, a lot of his listeners don't know any better and he knows this. He's using the tragedy to score political points for the far right conservatives here in the U.S. He doesn't care at all about the dead kids, their families, or Norwegians in general. It makes me ill.

Unfortunately, this sort of "journalism" is becoming more and more common here in the U.S. There are entire radio and TV networks devoted to one or the other of the two major American political parties. You can be sure that anything that casts the other party in an unfavorable light will be harped on ad nauseum and anything embarrassing to the host's political leanings will be ignored, glossed over, spun, or excused. It's a shame. A lot of Americans are either too ignorant, too lazy, or too ill informed to come to their own political conclusions- they tend to rely on folks like Beck to tell them what to think and do. If Beck compares European socialist parties to Nazis, much of his audience will accept his assessment and run with it. It's really frightening. If Beck wants to make Nazi comparisons, he ought to look in the mirror first. If Goebbels were alive today, he and Glenn would probably be BFFs.

[headquarters]

Not at all. Not necessary. I know that most people dont feel like that over there. But thanks anyways. Becks just a demagog and an agitator. He is in poor taste in my opinion. Our media has shown messages of sympathy and and support from across the world and I have seen this in other US and British coverage too. All in all I feel that support as sincere and more significant than Mr.Becks offending remarks.

As for the youth camp - its more like a convention of something somewhat like the College Democrats/Republicans of America - although high school kids are often part of the local branches.I think I should point out that the organization in question has its counterpart in almost every other party in Norway. There is no indoctrination, but an emphasis on school debates and creating awareness of issues etc through stands,rallies,practical political work etc etc.

As for our political line and supposed neutral/spineless stance - I dont get the negative undertow in what was said/implied. We are a fighting ally of the US and have been since WWII. We were in Korea,we were in nATO on the Soviet border all through the cold war, we were in the Gulf,in Somalia,Bosnia,Kosovo,Iraq,Afghanistan and most recently Libya.Admittedly ours isnt the biggest and most powerful army - but we rotate our batallions in at an attritious rate just like the rest of the willing.

Anyways - some people will say anything, even in times of tragedy but messages of support and compassion is what I am going to remember.

Originally Posted by Raellus

I feel like I need to apologize on Beck's behalf. He's a national embarrassment.

Glenn Beck is not a journalist- he's a political pundit and rabble rouser. He's basically a far right, conservative mouthpiece, and one of the more extreme and outspoken ones at that. He has a bad case of verbal diarhea. He's constantly in trouble for making inane, innacurate, and/or offensive statements (usually all of the above). It is fair to say that absolutely everything that comes out of his mouth will have been filtered through his narrow worldview in order to serve a specific political purpose. This makes most of what he says wildly inaccurate. He was trying to paint the "socialist" party summer camp targetted by the shooter in the most unflattering light possible. He obviously wants to demonize that particular political demographic by comparing its youth program to the Nazi youth organizations of Hitler's Germany. Unfortunately, a lot of his listeners don't know any better and he knows this. He's using the tragedy to score political points for the far right conservatives here in the U.S. He doesn't care at all about the dead kids, their families, or Norwegians in general. It makes me ill.

Unfortunately, this sort of "journalism" is becoming more and more common here in the U.S. There are entire radio and TV networks devoted to one or the other of the two major American political parties. You can be sure that anything that casts the other party in an unfavorable light will be harped on ad nauseum and anything embarrassing to the host's political leanings will be ignored, glossed over, spun, or excused. It's a shame. A lot of Americans are either too ignorant, too lazy, or too ill informed to come to their own political conclusions- they tend to rely on folks like Beck to tell them what to think and do. If Beck compares European socialist parties to Nazis, much of his audience will accept his assessment and run with it. It's really frightening. If Beck wants to make Nazi comparisons, he ought to look in the mirror first. If Goebbels were alive today, he and Glenn would probably be BFFs.

[Graebarde]

Thanks HQ...

[kota1342000]

Though Im short on time today for posting, I want to agree with Rae and add my apology for beck's verbal garbage. I dont think "base" works as well as "pathetic" as an adjective.

[Cdnwolf]

Beck and the whole Fox network is a joke.

The important thing is now to help the families of the victims try to get on with their lives. What is the support network like in Norway for tragedies like this?

[headquarters]

Apology not needed guys, but thanks anyways - as I wrote before - we know that the vast majority of people symphatize with us - and that helps.

( And those who dont - well, they have my symphaties...)

Norway is a small nation, and the victims were gathered from all over the country meaning that local communities and municipal councils will have to deal with the aftermaths from north to south.

They have set up crisis centers for the bereaved where they will get professional help to deal with their loss. These are run by the local authorities in cooperation with those volunteer organizations that find it natural to participate - like the red cross, people from the church parish and others. Thats on the short term.

On the longer term there will be afforded some sort of economical compensation to tidy them over if they have prolonged leave from work and that sort of thing. Medical assistance, for instance therapy, will be made available to them etc. Funerals and memorial services/gatherings will take place after the wishes of the relatives at the goverments expense. I guess we are all hoping that they will feel we are doing what we can.

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Beck and the whole Fox network is a joke.

The important thing is now to help the families of the victims try to get on with their lives. What is the support network like in Norway for tragedies like this?

[Sanchez]

Thanks for your comments.

My wife and daughter was outdoors only a few blocks away when the bomb went off, shattering all windows around them. They were luckily not hurt in the blast. I sat in the phone 2 km away initially thinking the trembeling and noise was a controlled explosion at a construction site near where I live. A large white cloud was visible over the city from where I sat.

With my family safe at home we started watching the news: As the day dragged on the news got sicker and sicker. After all, the parlament building is one of the most obvious terrorist targets in Oslo; this is the kind of attack the police has trained for, and the list of suspects seemed clear to anyone. In a way the motivation for the bomb attack made sense; a sort of retaliation attack on Norways governement for the wars in Afghanistan and Syria. Everybody, at least in the news seemed to agree on who was behing the blast.

Then the news from the shootings at Utøya came in the news. They actually came quite a while BEFORE the police had arrived on the island. If you search the internet you will find a still picture from a video sequence shot by a news helicopter: In that picture you'll see a guy dressed in police uniform surrounded by corpses methodically shooting people on the ground. Media had been tipped off by the kids on the island or by their parents having recived text messages from them. The guys in the news helicopter later said that they didn't know that they were filming the killings.

When eye witness acounts came in the news both before and after the arrest, and when the death toll was belived to 10 times as high as initially thought, I realised that this was not a push-the-button suicide truck bomb carried out by some mindless Al-Qaida "soldier" plotted by someone else in a different country, it was a an cold blooded, obviously extremely well planned extermination mission on the people that are likely to form Norways goverment in 20-30 years time. Carried out with the ruthlessless of a school massacre...

The human tragedy is huge; Norway is a small country, and you are likely to see a surname of a former work buddy or someone you went to school with on the fallen list. There were more than 600 kids on that island and if you go to high school in Norway you are likely to know someone who was there.

The head of the Police Security Service has already claimed that this act was carried out so "well" that even the former East-German secret police wouldn't have been able to stop it. A bit early to make such a claim if you ask me, but it's pretty obvious that they didn't have a clue of what was going on.

The sickest thing is the motivation for the shootings; not as usual to provoke a retaliation attack or to scare people to adopt a change of policy which to my knowledge accounts for most terrorist attacks (maybe with the exception of Oklahoma). But the erradiction of Norways future political elite to prepare the future civil war between christians and muslims that would be won in 2083 using weapons of mass destruction...

The sad fact the investigation will reveal I'm afraid is that a man willing to spend his whole adult life (he spent 9 years planning this) completely covinced of a sick conspiracy theory acting alone can not be stopped whatever security meassures that are taken. He will always find another target. At Utøya there was one unarmed police officer (to make sure that people didn't drink alcohol or misbehaved). He was the first to get shot - NOBODY expected an attack there.

My only hope is that are very few people like this guy out there.