OT- Evolution

[Sanjuro]

For as long as it lasts:
sometimes I challenge posts on this forum. I will try never to attack the poster.

If Creationism is to be taught in science classes, churches should be giving readings from Darwin...

That's the same kind of argument of asking someone the question, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

With all due respect, I disagree. There is a religious-led argument to use science classes to teach a religious POV with NO scientific evidence: balance would require giving science the same access to the religious platform.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

You should teach each of the theories EQUALLY. If you teach one theory, you should teach the others along with it.

This isn't correct. Only one of these is a theory, and its evolution. In science a theory is not used in the same fashion as common speech. It doesn't mean a guess or a hunch.

In science, a theory is an explanation of facts. In that sense, evolution is both a theory and fact. Creation has no facts, therefore it is not a theory - it's what we call an untested hypothesis.

Theories also must be falsifiable and with evolution it is, and creation isn't.

Remember, gravity is "just" a theory.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Evolution does happen, but there is evidence that 'human evolution' from the various hominds are actually false since many of the hominds that we are suppose to have evoloved from, actually existed at the same time as homo sapiens sapiens.

Ahh... you do realize that evolution is not a ladder? It is not linear. Of course they existed at the same time or evolution wouldn't be possible. You don't outgrown an evolutionary path.

[Raellus]

I am a practicing Christian with a degree in anthropology. I am also a public school [history] teacher. I like to think that I am a thoughtful, well educated, rational person of faith.

Evolution is a theory, but one for which a lot of scientific evidence exists.

Creationism, on the other hand, is a belief. It doesn't really meet the criteria of being a theory because it can't, at present, be tested at all.

Intelligent Design is a theory for which very little, if any, hard scientific evidence exists [yet].

Does that mean that there is no God or that he/she/it did not design the universe? Not necessarily.

Should Evolution be taught in public schools? Yes. It should be presented as a theory for which much evidence currently exists.

Should Creationism be taught in public schools? In a world religions class, sure. In a science class, no, not until compelling scientific evidence comes to light.

[pmulcahy11b]

If you're going to teach Christian creation myths in school alongside evolution, and remain Constitutional, then you have to teach ALL creation myths. Every last one of them. That's a ridiculous mess, as is choosing one religion's creation myth and forcing it on all kids.

That's my say. Out here.

[95th Rifleman]

A friend of mine has a saying about evolution, it's tongue and cheek and very British so my American friends, please don't be offended.

"If Evolution is true, why does America still exist?"

Jokes aside, I'm a pagan (I follow Nordic tradition). Being a member of a polytheistic faith gives me a different, more open, mindset than the monotheistic big three. We acknowledge that our traditions, myths and sagas are not literal truth, but a different kind of truth.

Did Odin really hang from the tree of life, on his own spear, for nine days and nights to learn wisdom? Is this truth? maybe, maybe not. What is true is the moral that all tings must be earned, that wisdom can not be attained easily or without sacrifice, this is truth.

We take this attitude to other religions, other creation myths and sagas. We don't see them as literal truth but encourage followers of those faiths to see the moral truth within their faith.

Evolution isn't a faith, it's science. In the UK it is taught in science class while the religous stuf is taught in R.E, we prefer it this way. Allot of British people find the religous extremism in Amerian christianity to be very, well, silly.

[simonmark6]

Not all religious extremity in Christianity comes from America and not all American Christians are extremists, I've seen a lot of strange ideas come out of sects here too, most of the "American Extremist" myths come from uneven reporting rather than truth.

When I was younger I was involved in a group called Operation Friendship and I had the privileged to visit with several American families. All had a quiet, gentle faith and all were among the most rational and tolerant people I have ever met.

I agree, however, that Evolution belongs in the Science class and Creationism is part of the Christian belief system that in schools belongs in the Religious Studies classroom.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

I agree, however, that Evolution belongs in the Science class and Creationism is part of the Christian belief system that in schools belongs in the Religious Studies classroom.

Absolutely agree with that. Personally the best description for me would be Agnostic with Atheist leanings - until I can see some cold hard facts and evidence of a higher power, I'll go with physics, chemistry, etc all the way. Yes, it would be nice if there was something after death, but since nobody can actually prove it, I'll just content myself with the decades I know I've had and hope to have in the future before snuffing it.

Humans are animals. We exist simply to procreate and continue the species, or more specifically, our individual line of the species, just like every other living organism in the universe. Just from a logical "continuation of the species" standpoint, it makes more sense for evolution to be correct than any other philosophy.

Sure, teach creationism as an alternate viewpoint, but without evidence there's no way it should be given any more weight in the syllabus than say the works of Shakespeare or Impressionist art. At best it should be taught as a part of history classes as a way people thought and how it influences today's society, right alongside sun worship and the Aztec human sacrifice.

[Targan]

Wow. Reading the posts in this thread has honestly been a joy. Thank you, above posters.

I am an atheist and I am very strongly of the view that in a democratic country with freedom of religion, religion should be kept entirely out of government, judicial processes and the science curriculum in education. Creationism, intelligent design, they are fine to be taught in the home, in churches, even in religious studies classes in schools (as long as those classes aren't compulsory). But I'd fight to my last breath to prevent any children of mine being forced to attend classes where myths are taught as facts.

I don't want to see any religious symbolism in government or judicial institutions. I have no issue with people believing in any kind of mysticism they like in the privacy of their own homes or in churches and other houses of worship. Just keep it out of public, taxpayer-funded institutions.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Jokes aside, I'm a pagan (I follow Nordic tradition). We acknowledge that our traditions, myths and sagas are not literal truth, but a different kind of truth.

Not the truth? Don't be so sure...

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Not the truth? Don't be so sure...

Now I'll have to get these coffee drops out of my keyboard!

[Cdnwolf]

There is a third option.... we are all a scientific experiment by aliens. It would explain the giant leap forward in evolution that scientist can't explain about our brain size doubling in one generation. I like the ending of Battlestar Galactica and how they were responsible for the rise of Homo Sapien species.

[atiff]

There is a fourth option - we are all figments of our imaginations, plugged into the Matrix.
:P

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

I like the ending of Battlestar Galactica and how they were responsible for the rise of Homo Sapien species.

You liked the ending of BSG... It's on now. Oh, it's on now.

[pmulcahy11b]

Or the 2001 version -- aliens put a supercomputer we later called TMA-0 on the earth that altered our ancestor's DNA.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Evolution is just a theory. Speculation and hypothesis based upon assumptions, and some known facts (that are occasionally updated when new info is discovered). We have not been around long enough to really notice any major evolution.

If man descended from apes why are apes still around? Do things evolve?

As far as the Big Bang theory well if you want me to believe that something came from nothing, that sounds like quite a leap of faith to me :P

I live for the now, and tomorrow. I learn from the mistakes of yesterday. I don't worry about the details too much. That's my philosophy of life.

Is there a god or divine being or lots of them, don't hurt to pray and believe they might be right. And if they are wrong then just consider it a bit of oddly directed time that may or may not have been put to better use.

Evolution and Creationism are both Theories in that they require some belief in that not all the facts are known or proven.

just my thoughts on it.

Do I believe in God, sure. I talk to him all the time. Do I believe in science? yup you betcha. Creationism or Evolution? I think they are both right and wrong as far as which parts are true and which are not, heck guess we will find out eventually. Maybe not in out lifetimes or heck it might be the next life if there is one.

I have seen just as many close minded scientists as I have closed minded religious zealots (its funny how the seem awfully familiar from the outside.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Evolution is just a theory. Speculation and hypothesis based upon assumptions, and some known facts (that are occasionally updated when new info is discovered). We have not been around long enough to really notice any major evolution.

If man descended from apes why are apes still around? Do things evolve?

By those standards, everything is a just a theory -- including whether your or I even exist.

We notice evolution every time we have to develop a new flu vaccine or a drug-resistant strain of a disease pops up -- the viruses and bacteria have evolved to adapt to existing methods to wipe them out.

Man didn't descend from apes, both evolved from a common ancestor that existed long before. The evolutionary branches "split" long before there were either apes or men; their branches never "crossed" in the first place.

Just trying to clarifying a few things. Evolution doesn't work the way most people think -- species don't really "descend" from one another, they just change to adapt to the prevailing biological and climatological conditions at the time. No, that's not really right either -- species don't deliberately change to adapt, they acquire a set of random mutations that allow them, step by step, to better fit into their niche.

And, as any good scientist will admit, any current theory is subject to change or even be thrown out completely at any time -- such is the nature of learning and science.

[Matt W]

Evolution is only a problem if you're American. No other nation requires conservative politicians to deny the "theory" of evolution. Even the Vatican is OK with the "theory" of evolution - just like they cope with the "theory" of gravity

[pmulcahy11b]

I want a taco...

[ArmySGT.]

If you never had it before......... Tastes like chicken.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

If you never had it before......... Tastes like chicken.

Which one? The Taco, or the Theory of Evolution?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Which one? The Taco, or the Theory of Evolution?

Theory of Evolution. No one knows what the meat in the taco is.

[mikeo80]

I am requesting a cease fire.

Each person's belief is exactly that. That belief belongs to that person.

I have my own series of beliefs. They belong to me. Right or wrong as others may interpret them, they are mine. I am not going to get into my beliefs, because that would be adding fuel to the fire that is this thread.

So, please, no more. Let's get back to T2K. That is a universe we all have agreed to inhabit in one way or another.

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

We notice evolution every time we have to develop a new flu vaccine or a drug-resistant strain of a disease pops up -- the viruses and bacteria have evolved to adapt to existing methods to wipe them out.

Man didn't descend from apes, both evolved from a common ancestor that existed long before. The evolutionary branches "split" long before there were either apes or men; their branches never "crossed" in the first place.

Just trying to clarifying a few things. Evolution doesn't work the way most people think -- species don't really "descend" from one another, they just change to adapt to the prevailing biological and climatological conditions at the time. No, that's not really right either -- species don't deliberately change to adapt, they acquire a set of random mutations that allow them, step by step, to better fit into their niche.

Yes, yes and yes. Good descriptions there, Paul.

We can travel to the Galapagos Islands today and see the same things that Charles Darwin saw. He practised science in a modern, empirical way. He observed something for which there was no scientific explanation and developed a theory to explain it.

We humans use some of the mechanisms of evolution to modify animals and plants to our own ends. It's called selective breeding. All of our modern food crops, nearly all of our domestic animals, have been heavily modified through animal and plant husbandry to display characteristics we find useful.

Broadly speaking, that's how evolution works too. Living creatures with random mutations that prove useful tend to do better in their environment than their 'pure-strain' relatives. Their descendants carry those useful mutations and over time that strain diverges from its relatives. There's nothing mystical about it.

As for the Big Bang, that theory doesn't necessarily call for you to believe that 'something came from nothing'. We can't observe what came before the Big Bang, sure, but there are many possibilities. Universes may only expand to a certain point before contracting back down to a singularity and starting the process all over again. Ancient universes may eventually collapse into themselves as all matter is eventually eaten by black holes. I'm much more comfortable with those theories than the idea than some omnsicient, omnipotent being that I can't detect at all created the universe in 7 days.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Evolution is just a theory. Speculation and hypothesis based upon assumptions, and some known facts (that are occasionally updated when new info is discovered). We have not been around long enough to really notice any major evolution.

LMAO
Oh, wait, you're serious!?

There are litterally masses of evidence supporting evolution, so much that it's impossible to list even a small part of it all (although fossils, genetic diversification, etc are a couple).
Where's even the faintest scrap of evidence backing up creationism? It simply does not exist outside of the heads of those who want to believe in it. Sure, you can say those fossils were created by a higher power, but how can you PROVE that? At least those same fossils can be dated using scientific processes.

Evolution is happening daily. It can be seen at work in some of the short lifespan creatures such as insects - a dozen generations over just a few months and you go from a species unable to cope with a particular pesticide to one that virtually bathes in it every morning without harm. The same thing can be seen in longer lived creatures and plants if you spend the time and effort observing.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

LMAO
Oh, wait, you're serious!?

There are litterally masses of evidence supporting evolution, so much that it's impossible to list even a small part of it all (although fossils, genetic diversification, etc are a couple).
Where's even the faintest scrap of evidence backing up creationism? It simply does not exist outside of the heads of those who want to believe in it. Sure, you can say those fossils were created by a higher power, but how can you PROVE that? At least those same fossils can be dated using scientific processes.

Evolution is happening daily. It can be seen at work in some of the short lifespan creatures such as insects - a dozen generations over just a few months and you go from a species unable to cope with a particular pesticide to one that virtually bathes in it every morning without harm. The same thing can be seen in longer lived creatures and plants if you spend the time and effort observing.

No not serious, just stirring the pot.

I question Both allot. Science has almost become a religion. When one questions it those that profess it react almost if not, then just like questioning Creationist and their reaction.

Personally I could care less.

For all we know both are right, the scientists are just trying to explain how it happened in an analytic way. While the Creations are just taking it on faith. :P

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Oh and think about this. Is it evolution or intelligent design just updating or changing its mind??

Why not?

lol

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Not the truth? Don't be so sure...

*spits good German beer over his kb*

This.

Pure win.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

Oh and think about this. Is it evolution or intelligent design just updating or changing its mind??

Why not?

lol

Or did MS pump the Matrix an update?

You know, this thread started out as a flamewar brewing, but now it's just fun.

[pmulcahy11b]

OMG! I can't believe I just suggested that the Matrix runs on Windows! The universe's gonna crash!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

OMG! I can't believe I just suggested that the Matrix runs on Windows! The universe's gonna crash!

Why do you think you can see the glitches.

Say is that a cat?

Say is that a cat?

Whoa.... De ja Vu.