WARPACT Arms Stockpiles

[Raellus]

I just finished C.J. Chivers' The Gun (I recommend it to anyone interested in firearms) and he presented some pretty staggering figures concerning arms stockpiles maintainied by the USSR and its European satellites during the Cold War.

Apparenly, in eastern Ukraine, at a site called Artemovsk, the Soviets constructed and maintained a huge weapons cache in sections of a still-functioning subterranean salt mine. At the peak of its operations, it contained some 3 million guns, from WWI vintage up to new production AKMs, all burried up to 150m below ground. Miners continued their work on the mine's lower levels.

In East Germany, the National Volksarmee, police, secret police, and border guards all had extensive armories. Around 400,000 military weapons (read: AK-47s) had been cached in factories, ready to arm "worker's militias" in the event of a NATO attack. Party officals had another 100,000 small arms.

Albania, not truly a WTO nation in the '80s, had ridiculous arms stockpiles.

These are just a few notable state armories in the PACT.

All of this means that the USSR/WTO would be well stocked with AK variants and cartridges for same, even in the later stages of the Twilight War. In fact, with the ubiquity, simplicity, and durability of the AK series, I imagine that a lot of NATO units would be converting to AKs in the later years of WWIII.

The stuff about the DDR stockpiles has me convinced that the AK would continue to arm a good chunk of the unified German Army throughout the Twilight War. In fact, with G11 production flagging, and ammo running scarce, I can envision large W. German units converting to AKs.

I also learned in The Gun, that nearly all Soviet high school children learned how to disassemble and assemble AKs as part of the state-mandated curriculum. Many high school boys even got to shoot them as part of their pre-conscription studies.

Lastly, the Ukranian armory could be a good adventure seed for a T2K campaign.

[Legbreaker]

I'm no chemist, but doesn't salt react badly with metal?
How do they keep the weapons in the salt mines protected from rust without copious amounts of grease and oil (and possibly frequent reapplication)? You'd think there'd have to be better locations for storage....
Maybe one thick coat is enough, but that would mean the weapons aren't immediately useable, and would require a good solid cleaning before hitting the range/battlefield.

I recall an NCO course here in Australia back in the early 90's being issued with L1A1 SLRs straight from storage (not a salt mine). Each and every one of them was packed SOLID with thick, hard grease. The barrels were completely blocked and the rest of the working parts were in a similar state.
Those who where there indicated each rifle needed about an hour of cleaning before they were fit for use. Not so hard if you're not in a hurry and are able to issue the weapons with plenty of time before they're needed. Not so good if you're rushing about trying to stop an enemy offensive with barely trained conscripts who are needed on the line NOW.

[Panther Al]

Ah... cosmoline. Wonderful stuff that. Protects a firearm like nothing else, and takes forever to clean up. Unless you know the trick, in which case, 10-15
minutes, tops.

55gal barrel 3/4 full of gasoline. Dunk, swish, let sit for a bit.. Shake dry, dunk swish once more, and you should be pretty darn close to good to go. I would recommend that you wait at least 20 minutes before shooting though. More on colder days.

[Legbreaker]

They'd need a good oiling after the dunking though I'd imagine.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's a few links to articles that are connected to this. The Soviets didn't have the monopoly on the idea as we've had some discussion about the NATO Operation Gladio on the forum some time back and Gladio got up to all sorts of interesting activities apparently.

I must add though, that some of the websites providing this info are sometimes pushing their own agenda (such as the pdf link below, the website physic911.net is pushing the idea that the September 11th attacks were faked)

A pdf about NATO stay-behind-armies in various European countries
http://www.physics911.net/pdf/Daniel...n_Europe-1.pdf

US arms caches in Austria
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...t-1325356.html

A few pages from MilitaryPhotos.Net it seems largely anecdotal however (although there really are a large number of WW2 and post-WW2 underground facilities in Europe from small bunkers on up to huge command centres)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...weapons-caches

"In 1998, in woods near the city of Berne, Swiss security forces exploded a bomb, using a water cannon. It happened to be the security device for a buried Soviet arms cache, intended for the use of Special Tasks units. The location of this cache had been taken from the KGB archives."
Quote taken from http://members.iglou.com/jtmajor/Mitrokhn.htm

Arms cache on former Soviet/Russian base in Akhalkalaki, Georgia
http://en.rian.ru/world/20070707/68541640.html
The base was home to the Soviet 147th Motor Rifle Division up until the early 1990s. After the fall of the Soviet Union the Division became the Russian 62nd Military Base which was officially transferred to Georgia on June 27, 2007.
Info snipped from wiki page on Akhalkalaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhalkalaki#Bases

Claims of Soviet weapons hidden in the USA
http://www.nti.org/db/nistraff/2000/20000020.htm
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1999...oor_102899.htm

An article on how the KGB was probably the lesser partner in stashing weapons for a future conflict between NATO and Warsaw Pact.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...red_terror.htm

Article relating to illegal immigration in Europe but the following passage is specifically relevant: -
"Tiraspol is a threat to EU border security. It has facilities for producing illegal documents and is home to a massive Soviet-era arms cache, but the 350,000 people who live there go in and out of Moldova proper with no checks by Moldovan border guards. Evidence indicates that its main smuggling activity is counterfeit cigarettes, however."
Full article here http://euobserver.com/22/31700
More info from an article about arms trafficker Victor Bout
"Before the Soviet Union's collapse, Tiraspol was home to the Soviet 14th Army, which left behind 40,000 tons of weaponry, the largest arsenal in Europe.
At last count, stored in a complex of bunkers and berms and guarded by a skeleton crew of Russians are enough explosives to make two and a half Hiroshima bombs, tens of thousands of Kalashnikov assault rifles, millions of rounds of ammunition and huge numbers of antitank missiles, grenades and Scudlike rockets. Trans-Dniestrian factories may still produce weapons."
Full article available through the Internet Archive here http://web.archive.org/web/200502151...raine/bout.htm

When you consider that factories in eastern Germany were making 7.92x33mm ammunition* up until at least 1947 and that the Soviets rarely discarded any working weapon system, it's not surprising that they'd maintain caches/stockpiles around their areas of interest.
* for the StG44 rifles issued to the East German Workers Militia before they were replaced by Soviet weapons and also for ammunition for such weapons given as aid to African nations.


Sorry for all the links, I got carried away with my interest in the topic

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As an aside, the benefit of storage in a salt mine is the lack of moisture that's available to interact with the items stored there. The salt absorbs a lot of the moisture and serves to keep humidity fairly constant. As long as the stored items are not directly in contact with the salt, they are unlikely to suffer corrosion problems any worse than if you stored them anywhere else.
The other benefit of a salt mine is that rodents aren't fond of all that salt.

[Matt Wiser]

The East Germans may have been where StG-44s that wound up in Iraq orginated: I remember seeing some news footage of a raid on a cache near Najaf, and instead of the expected AKs, there were a number of StG-44s found. Hopefully, the unit that captured the weapons knew what they'd found, and sent one or two back home to the divisional museum, and maybe gave the rest to SOF.

[ArmySGT.]

Those came from Syria.

Syria purchased WW2 German arms from the cash strapped Soviets.

A Panzer IV was captured on the Golan heights by the Israelis.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In the case of the Panzer IV and also StuG III, Syria obtained a number of them from France. Apparently France had enough of them "left lying around from a previous war", that they could refurbish them and offer them for sale.
In something of a twist, these Syrian Panzers faced Israeli Centurions during the "Water War" of 1965.
Syria obtained more Panzer IV tanks from Spain and these saw combat during the 1967 Six-Day War where , in another twist, they faced Israeli Sherman tanks.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

The East Germans may have been where StG-44s that wound up in Iraq orginated: I remember seeing some news footage of a raid on a cache near Najaf, and instead of the expected AKs, there were a number of StG-44s found. Hopefully, the unit that captured the weapons knew what they'd found, and sent one or two back home to the divisional museum, and maybe gave the rest to SOF.

Or in the hands of enterprising people like me till the first sergeant threw a fit over my crew running around with no helmet covers, 2 StG's, a MP40, and an Iranian MG3.


That said, I have to say, even old and abused, the StG was remarkably good in CQB.

[ArmySGT.]

The Soviets continued to manufacture ammunition for many weapon systems considered obsolete, even going so far as to manufacture improved ammunition.

[HorseSoldier]

The East Germans may have been where StG-44s that wound up in Iraq orginated: I remember seeing some news footage of a raid on a cache near Najaf, and instead of the expected AKs, there were a number of StG-44s found. Hopefully, the unit that captured the weapons knew what they'd found, and sent one or two back home to the divisional museum, and maybe gave the rest to SOF.

They were, indirectly. During the very early Cold War they handed over StG-44s to the Syrians and various other fraternal socialist brothers in the Middle East and Africa. The ones that turned up in Iraq were most likely the results of various people within the Syrian government paying that gesture forward.

There were enough StG-44s still in (maybe semi) official government service in different nations that the DDR was making 7.92x33 ammo for them up to the point where the walls came down. (Along with the Yugoslavians, who were still using them in some limited way, as well.)

That said, I have to say, even old and abused, the StG was remarkably good in CQB.

The one I got to play with was here in the US, but I have to agree, +/- the metal handguards getting hot enough to fry bacon after relatively limited use. Either a design flaw, or an intentional feature to discourage German troops equipped with them from throwing the thing on auto and burning through their whole basic load of ammo in the first two minutes of an engagement.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Or in the hands of enterprising people like me till the first sergeant threw a fit over my crew running around with no helmet covers, 2 StG's, a MP40, and an Iranian MG3.


That said, I have to say, even old and abused, the StG was remarkably good in CQB.

It's too bad they wouldn't let you guys send more of that stuff home, from what I've read some of the stuff they've turned up on cache raids is a gun/museum collector's wet dream!

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

They were, indirectly. During the very early Cold War they handed over StG-44s to the Syrians and various other fraternal socialist brothers in the Middle East and Africa. The ones that turned up in Iraq were most likely the results of various people within the Syrian government paying that gesture forward.

There were enough StG-44s still in (maybe semi) official government service in different nations that the DDR was making 7.92x33 ammo for them up to the point where the walls came down. (Along with the Yugoslavians, who were still using them in some limited way, as well.)



The one I got to play with was here in the US, but I have to agree, +/- the metal handguards getting hot enough to fry bacon after relatively limited use. Either a design flaw, or an intentional feature to discourage German troops equipped with them from throwing the thing on auto and burning through their whole basic load of ammo in the first two minutes of an engagement.

There's still debate on just how "original" Mikhail Kalashnikov's design is/was when you look at the Stg-44.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

There's still debate on just how "original" Mikhail Kalashnikov's design is/was when you look at the Stg-44.

I believe that a lot of the post war Soviet research was rehashed German stuff, but here, in regards to the AK, I think there is less duplication than most would think.

While the idea might have come from the limited use of AR's in Late 42 that got the ball rolling, the Soviets was always looking for something that would hit harder than a pistol round and not be as brutal in automatic fire as the Nagant would be. I can see MK and others glancing at the StG as they worked on the AK, but I think that in detail, its mostly original.

The AK is one of the few honest wins for original weapons development.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The AK and the StG44 share an overall similarity and there's no denial even from the Soviets themselves that they were interested and even influenced by German weapons they captured.
What's less well known is that there were a whole slew of designs put forward in competition with the Kalashnikov and nearly all of them followed the same general 'package' of the StG44. However the internal mechanisms/method of operation were as varied as you'd expect from a number of design groups submitting proposals.

We in the West haven't seen a lot of the other weapons submitted for trials for Western militaries and we've had even less exposure to similar trials from Eastern Europe but more information has become available in the last two decades.
The following article shows some of the contenders for the 1946-1947 Soviet rifle trials, many of them superficially resemble the StG44 so the German rifle definitely had some influence but to I think with more info available it's clearer now that the AK wasn't just a straight copy.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...of-the-week-9/

Apparently there's some contention about Kalashnikov actually designing the rifle that bears his name. Some researchers in Russia allege that Kalashnikov was a late replacement for the real designer who had offended Stalin and was "removed". Fact or speculation, who knows but it didn't pay to piss off Stalin!

As an item of speculation, many of the trials rifles were kept at their respective arms factories and can be seen today in their museums. It's possible some of these trials rifles were liberated during the Twilight War and made there way slowly westwards - it would sure be an interesting sight seeing someone carrying something like this, the TKB-408 of 1946 (and the media thinks bullpups are something new!)

For info on the above rifle, go here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html

[HorseSoldier]

The AK and StG bear a superficial external resemblance as well, but their internal operations aren't very similar, either, beyond that imposed by doing about the same thing with the same sort of round.

[Raellus]

The book I cited and recommended, The Gun (by C.J. Chivers) is mostly about the development and proliferation of the AK series. The first third covers the invention and development of early machineguns and it also has a very interesting (and damning) chapter on the development, adoption, and early problems of the M-16.

The numbers the AK series have been produced in is absolutely staggering. It's probably killed more human beings than any other weapon since WWII. And there are so many out there that they will ubdoubtedly be used to kill for another century at least. Sad really.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Raellus

... At the peak of its operations, it contained some 3 million guns, from WWI vintage up to new production AKMs, ...

In East Germany,... Around 400,000 military weapons (read: AK-47s) had been cached in factories, ... Party officals had another 100,000 small arms.

Albania, not truly a WTO nation in the '80s, had ridiculous arms stockpiles.

These are just a few notable state armories in the PACT.

Jeez, why bother reloading? "Ivan Sergeevich, pass me another one!"

[dragoon500ly]

Talking about the Soviet's love of stockpiling everything, came across a listing of estimated force inventories that the Soviets had on hand in 1978, dated, but still....source is "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army" by David Isby.

TANKS
T-54/55: 23,322
T-62: 14,085
T-64/72: 3,871
T-10M/JS2/JS3: 8,126
TOTAL: 48,403

APCs & IFVs
BMPs: 9,099
BTR-60: 11,075
Others (BTR-152, BTR-50, MTLB): 12,937
TOTAL: 33,111

MORTARs
82mm: 432
120mm: 7,831
240mm: 157
TOTAL: 8,420

ARTILLERY
122mm towed: 12,188
122mm SP: 524
130mm towed: 2,351
152mm towed: 10,168
152mm SP: 408
180mm towed: 225
Unidentified (WWII era): 5,038
TOTAL: 24,902

MRLs (all types): 3,368

AT WEAPONS
towed guns (85mm, 100mm): 6,467
SPG-9: 3,535
RPG-7: 46,287
ATGM BRDMs: 3,811
Suitcase ATGMs: 2,557
TOTAL: 62,677

SSMs
FROG-series: 664
Scuds: 470
Scaleboards: 136
TOTAL: 1,270

AAA
S-60: 7,879
ZSU-57-2: 470
ZSU-23-4: 2,125
ZPU-4/ZU-23: 2,927
Unidentified (WWII era): 4,736
TOTAL:18,137

SAMs
SA-4: 1,077
SA-6: 660
SA-7: 23,306
SA-8: 60
SA-9: 790
TOTAL:25,893

[Webstral]

That's lots of gear. Sold at fire sale prices to Third World clients in the 1990's, this quantity of stuff could pose some problems for the West.

[dragoon500ly]

Except this isn't the stuff that the Soviets were dumping on the Third World, that list was what the Soviets themselves use and maintain in supply depots as war-time replacements.

Although just how well trained the IS-2 crews would be.....

[Webstral]

That's a good reason to get rid of some of the older equipment. A Third World client might have the time and inclination to get troops up-to-speed on the really old gear. Let the Africans, Asians, and Latin Americans scrape the preservatives off the gear in whatever time they see fit, so long as the payment in bananas, metals, or what have you arrives in a timely fashion.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As an item of speculation, many of the trials rifles were kept at their respective arms factories and can be seen today in their museums. It's possible some of these trials rifles were liberated during the Twilight War and made there way slowly westwards - it would sure be an interesting sight seeing someone carrying something like this, the TKB-408 of 1946 (and the media thinks bullpups are something new!)

For info on the above rifle, go here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html

That rifle is ugly as hell...and yet there's something strangely appealing about it all the same. It just seems like the very kind of weapon you'd expect to find in a futuristic dysfunctional and/or post apocalyptic world...

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Talking about the Soviet's love of stockpiling everything, came across a listing of estimated force inventories that the Soviets had on hand in 1978, dated, but still....source is "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army" by David Isby.

TANKS
T-54/55: 23,322
T-62: 14,085
T-64/72: 3,871
T-10M/JS2/JS3: 8,126
TOTAL: 48,403

APCs & IFVs
BMPs: 9,099
BTR-60: 11,075
Others (BTR-152, BTR-50, MTLB): 12,937
TOTAL: 33,111

MORTARs
82mm: 432
120mm: 7,831
240mm: 157
TOTAL: 8,420

ARTILLERY
122mm towed: 12,188
122mm SP: 524
130mm towed: 2,351
152mm towed: 10,168
152mm SP: 408
180mm towed: 225
Unidentified (WWII era): 5,038
TOTAL: 24,902

MRLs (all types): 3,368

AT WEAPONS
towed guns (85mm, 100mm): 6,467
SPG-9: 3,535
RPG-7: 46,287
ATGM BRDMs: 3,811
Suitcase ATGMs: 2,557
TOTAL: 62,677

SSMs
FROG-series: 664
Scuds: 470
Scaleboards: 136
TOTAL: 1,270

AAA
S-60: 7,879
ZSU-57-2: 470
ZSU-23-4: 2,125
ZPU-4/ZU-23: 2,927
Unidentified (WWII era): 4,736
TOTAL:18,137

SAMs
SA-4: 1,077
SA-6: 660
SA-7: 23,306
SA-8: 60
SA-9: 790
TOTAL:25,893

And you wonder where the hell Viktor Bout, the notorious arms smuggler, was able to find and ship so much damn merchandise...

On another note, you have to wonder what the Soviets...er, Russians still have locked up in all those underground bunkers in the Urals and elsewhere.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

And you wonder where the hell Viktor Bout, the notorious arms smuggler, was able to find and ship so much damn merchandise...

On another note, you have to wonder what the Soviets...er, Russians still have locked up in all those underground bunkers in the Urals and elsewhere.

Not to mention what the US has stockpiled....haven't you ever wondered why Shermans keep coming out on the surplus market?

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Not to mention what the US has stockpiled....haven't you ever wondered why Shermans keep coming out on the surplus market?

Shhh!

We like to be a bit more discrete about our own treasure hordes, ya know!

Though I confess I'd like to know where they keep pulling out those Shermans for sale, along with all the other hardware that's rumored they keep stockpiled.

BTW, I recall there was a survey done by the U.N. not long ago that attempted to determine what country were the most heavily armed, or had the most weapons per capita. While I would take it with a grain of salt, after crunching the data, they claimed the most heavily armed nation in the world is in fact the United States.



I should add this was determined after compiling official tallies of not only military stockpiles, but also CIVILIAN-owned weapons as well. I think Admiral Yamamoto said it best (assuming this is the correct quote), "You cannot invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Talking about the Soviet's love of stockpiling everything, came across a listing of estimated force inventories that the Soviets had on hand in 1978, dated, but still....source is "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army" by David Isby.

Wouldn't this be mobilization I and II with Mobilization III units getting WW2 equipment like T34-85s and SU-100s.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

BTW, I recall there was a survey done by the U.N. not long ago that attempted to determine what country were the most heavily armed, or had the most weapons per capita. While I would take it with a grain of salt, after crunching the data, they claimed the most heavily armed nation in the world is in fact the United States.

I don't have the book in front of me (had to return it to the library) but, IIRC, Chivers (in The Gun) claimed that Albania was thought to have had the most weapons per-capita prior to the breakup of the USSR. It was something ridiculous like an AK for every 7 citizens or 7 AKs for every adult citizen. They just went hog wild cranking out and storing the things- something to do with paranoia after leaving the WARPACT. After the fall of the USSR, a lot of Albanias AKs found their way to the Balkans, the 'Stans and elsewhere.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Wouldn't this be mobilization I and II with Mobilization III units getting WW2 equipment like T34-85s and SU-100s.

The listing is what was available for the Category I, II and III units, mobilization only divisions would be the ones getting the WWII gear.