Knives/daggers in the Twilight War

[B.T.]

In the last days I searched the forum for infos on knifes and daggers. And this was a little disapointing. We have threats on all kind of weapons. We even have threats, in which the board members can choose their most liked vehicle of the Twilight War. Lots of threats on all kinds of firearms, and more than one poll. But knifes? No, not one single threat, solely dedicated to knifes/bayonets/daggers.

In wars of the past, certain knifes have become some kind of iconic item of that war. Take, for example, the Fairbain-Sykes-dagger of the British commandoes in WWII, or the Gerber Mk II and the USAAF-survival-knife M1963 from the Vietnam-era. And lets not forget about the KA-BAR of the US Marines and the kukhri of the Ghurkas, seen on many theatres worldwide in more than one conflict.

The character-generation-chapter of the T2k rules (at least in Ver.2.n) says, every soldier receives a bayonet as part of the basic load. I've changed this a little: Players, rolling up a Marine PC, may choose, if they want to have a Bayonet, or a KA-BAR. And as I've mentioned on several occasions, I give a German character in the Bundeswehr an ACK.

Talking about bayonets: There are so many different designs. A US M9 bayonet can be used as field-knife, exactly like the ubiquitous AK-bayonets or the British L3 A1. And these, like the ACK, can be used as wire cutter.
The more dagger-like bayonets (as example the US M7 bayonet) work as weapon, but they are not as good as field-knife. And older bayonets of the spike-type are completely worseless as knife.

I'd like to know, what you think about this. Is there a knife/bayonet/dagger, that may be this iconic knife of the Twilight War? What kind of knife will be in service with some military unit? How likely is it, to find some extra-ordinary knife on the battlefield? How likely is it, that some knife will be fielded with US forces, like the "quartermaster-knifes" of WW II, omitting the bayonet? How is this handeled in other countries?

I think, a specific model could be very characteristic for certain NPCs, for example the former Westpoint-guy, now commanding one battalion of the 50th Armor Division, wearing the old Randall "All-purpose-fighter", that his Grandpa had with him in WW II and his Dad in the jungles of Vietnam. The knife of choice can put a highlight on the character.

So, any thoughts are appreciated.

[Mahatatain]

I think that, rather than a specific knife or bayonet, the Twilight War would see a reappearance of all kinds of small to medium sized melee weapons that can be carried as a back up to a firearm, in much the same way as the trench warfare of WWI prompted all kinds of trench knives, axes and clubs.

Sorry if that's not much help!

[headquarters]

I agree with Matahain who stated that a resurgence of melee weapnry would take place . ( As well as improvised weapons lik eblackpowder mortars etc )

I kindly ask you to consider these few items

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Melee/

regarding melee weaponry.

Frozen salmon is a favourite of mine. Not to mention the plaque mounted Marlin.

[copeab]

You'd likely see blades similar in function to the 'Serb-cutter'.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by copeab

You'd likely see blades similar in function to the 'Serb-cutter'.

Horrible - but I think that you're right!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

You'd likely see blades similar in function to the 'Serb-cutter'.

But that sort of weapon is specifically for the purpose of slaughtering large numbers of prisoners. If a character in a T2K has one of those, it is a grim sort of a campaign indeed.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

But that sort of weapon is specifically for the purpose of slaughtering large numbers of prisoners. If a character in a T2K has one of those, it is a grim sort of a campaign indeed.

It's a grim game, when you really think about it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I agree with Matahain who stated that a resurgence of melee weapnry would take place . ( As well as improvised weapons lik eblackpowder mortars etc )

I kindly ask you to consider these few items

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Melee/

regarding melee weaponry.

Frozen salmon is a favourite of mine. Not to mention the plaque mounted Marlin.

And I command you to cut down a tree with a herring!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

But that sort of weapon is specifically for the purpose of slaughtering large numbers of prisoners. If a character in a T2K has one of those, it is a grim sort of a campaign indeed.

Targan, Targan, Targan...
Having read of the exploits of Major Po and his method of census collecting I believe your own campaign was pretty damned grim!

[pmulcahy11b]

The real problem with putting various blades in T2K is that, aside from role-playing and sometimes weight, the rules only allow for minor differences between blades as far as damage and effects go.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The real problem with putting various blades in T2K is that, aside from role-playing and sometimes weight, the rules only allow for minor differences between blades as far as damage and effects go.

I heartily agree - the "primitive weapons" and melee weapons are decribed as somewhat ineffective in the rules

we made our own rules regarding this:

various melee weapons would potentially have "more attacks / phase " or
" higher ROF" if you will - depending on wielders skill of course. This also equals more blocks.

various melee weapons would have a lot more damage than what described in the book - i.e. a proper Japanese Reneissance Katana( bear over with me - you would be suprised at the number of good reproductions of these things that circulate) could -according to historic accounts - dismember a man at the thigh with one skilled blow. I beg to maintain that this constitutes a damage potential of D6 + strength in terms of game mechanics.

We made up all new melee rules to adress this

[Canadian Army]

I think you would see reproductions of the M3 Fighting Knife and the Gerber Mark II in hands of the military and in some civilian hands too. You would see lots of KA-BARs with them being around since 1942. On the Bayonet side you would probably see the M1 Bayonet, M5 Bayonet, M6 Bayonet, M7 Bayonet, and various M9 Bayonet Copies. You would also see edge weapons like the Tomahawk on the military side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahaw...ry_application) and on the civilian side too. Reproduction samurai swords, Civil War Reproduction Swords and Reproduction Medieval Swords would also be in large numbers too. I have a NPC who is a Sons of Confederate Veterans leader and carries a Confederate Cavalry Officer's Sabre, I also have NPC who carries a Long sword and use it as his primary weapon.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Personally I don't think you would see many reproductions of various swords being made. Blacksmithing is almost a lost skill and swordsmithing is a high art compared to blacksmithing - there would be very, very few people left capable of producing a good basic, no-frills sword and I would argue that there would be close to none who could make a reproduction of some of the swords mentioned.

Instead I think you'd see people trying out all those soft metal replica swords from the militaria shops and finding that they are totally useless and then looting whatever museums they could for genuine swords. For those who miss out, they'd resort to shaping either stabbing swords or heavy chopping blades like machetes out of such material as the steel plate used for ships or from steel girders and suchlike.

A basic sword or hatchet cut from a steel girder is crude but easy to make, knowing enough metallurgy to find/refine/use the right material to then cast a proper sword is a whole level of difficulty above what 95% of people in the modern world can do.

[Legbreaker]

Apparently suspension leaf springs are good steel for blades, although the curve could be problematic for more than knives.
You might even be better off using the leaves to make crossbows and small ballista.

[ArmySGT.]

Not one Paul Hogan impression to be seen........... anywhere.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Apparently suspension leaf springs are good steel for blades, although the curve could be problematic for more than knives.

Aren't Kukri knives traditionally made using truck springs? With some carbon added.

[headquarters]

I agree - making a proper Japanese katana or a high end sword is not likely to be found anywhere - but look the amount of fair quality swords being peddled on the net. A functional ,properly tempered, high carbon steel sword of most any given historical period can be had from say 50 to 250 US dollars. Not to mention the spears,axes,maces etc etc . Swords in the 100 000s or millions are out there.

In a world where ammo is precious melee and missile weapons would be coming back. As for making a brutal chopper that can take abuse thats about an EASY task imo. Truck springs, construction materials mechanical parts - steel is plentiful to scrounge. Making it from scratch is totally different - and would only be possible where you have certain factors present - ore, know - how, resources etc.

Historically the bayonets and "sidearm" / melee weapons issued grew smaller and less important as firearms evolved. Look at a bayonet from 1850 and one from 1950 - the older is more like small sword. The newer more like a knife. Today our unit is not even issued the bayonet. Come T2k and ammo rationing the bayonet would return, it would grow in size and eventually troopers would carry a melee weapon that is carried in its own right -like a D-guard Bowie, a mace / trench club or basillard. Or even a sword or a lance - according to enviroment and tasks at hand.

all imho - h for humble as always.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Personally I don't think you would see many reproductions of various swords being made. Blacksmithing is almost a lost skill and swordsmithing is a high art compared to blacksmithing - there would be very, very few people left capable of producing a good basic, no-frills sword and I would argue that there would be close to none who could make a reproduction of some of the swords mentioned.

Instead I think you'd see people trying out all those soft metal replica swords from the militaria shops and finding that they are totally useless and then looting whatever museums they could for genuine swords. For those who miss out, they'd resort to shaping either stabbing swords or heavy chopping blades like machetes out of such material as the steel plate used for ships or from steel girders and suchlike.

A basic sword or hatchet cut from a steel girder is crude but easy to make, knowing enough metallurgy to find/refine/use the right material to then cast a proper sword is a whole level of difficulty above what 95% of people in the modern world can do.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I agree with Matahain who stated that a resurgence of melee weapnry would take place . ( As well as improvised weapons lik eblackpowder mortars etc )

I kindly ask you to consider these few items

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Melee/

regarding melee weaponry.

Frozen salmon is a favourite of mine. Not to mention the plaque mounted Marlin.

Thanks for the link... very interesting.. FB

[B.T.]

Now, what are knives used for, anyway? If we think about situations, where knives and other blade-instruments are used, we can think of these in several categories:

1. Preparing meals/kitchen duty
2. Field life/trecking/camping
3. Fighting

The majority of knives is intended for one of these situations. Additionally there is the broad category of specialised knifes, used in several trades or crafts (furriers, certain jobs in the production of papers, or the like - the "serb-cutter" originally was an agricultural tool!). Those are certainly not the knifes, that show up in an T2k-scenario on a regular basis.

The most widespread use of knives (pre-war, that is!) was certainly the preparation of meals. Big kitchen knives, like carving knifes, could also be used as a blade for fighting, but they are not intended for that use. The most kitchen knives are very sharp, but they loose their sharpness pretty quickly.
There are plenty of them around and such knives would be "very common".

Fighting knives, on the other hand, are intended to take some amount of rough handling, but these are not suited to be a big help in the kitchen (Ever tried to peel a potato with an Fällkniven A1? Hm, it works, but any smaller and finer blade is better! Yes, I know that the Fällkniven A1 is not intended as a fighting knife, but it has a similar blade.).
Fighting knives are relatively rare in the Western European states, at least in the hands of civilians.

And if we have a look at the dagger, it's getting even worse - you can not cut with the majority of daggers. Their overall geometric form is just not good for that.
Daggers outside the military are there in Europe, but in several states they were banned. I think, those would be "scarce" in the sense of the T2k rules.

I think, the most useful kind of knife would be a camp knife* or hunting knife ("sheath knife" is, what my dictionary gives me, when I searched for the German term "Fahrtenmesser" - there seems to be no English equivalent!). All the duties of living in the field can be solved. And if the knife has a certain weight and a more massive blade, it can even be used for hacking/chopping (chopping branches off a tree, and the like) or digging (a gutter around your tent, for example). Skinning of animals can also be done. These knives may not be the best fighting knives, but they would do the job!
Knives of this kind are pretty widespread in (continental) Europe and could be rated as "common" or even "very common".

The aforemantioned swords, sabres and so on would exist, but I doubt, that those would be in widespread use. Some individuals could use them, but it would be (from my personal point of view) the exception from the rule. Swords, katanas, cavalry sabres and weapons like these are long and encumbering. Not a good thing, wether you are dismountig from a vehicle or creeping through some bush-land.
Allthuogh HQ is right, when he points out, those weapons are there, I would still say, they would be rare to find.

Still another category of knives should be mentioned: folding knives! Knives like the Swiss Army Knife, or one-hand-folding knives (tactical folders?) are very useful in special situations. I think, they are mediocre fighting knives, but they are a big help in the kitchen and in situations, where you do not need a more massive blade (Opening card-board boxes, peeling potato/slicing vegetables, cutting plasters/patches to size (very useful in 1st aid!), and similar tasks. And let's not forget about the zillion-million multitools, be it Leatherman, Gerber, SOG or whatever manufacturer. All these small devices are certainly a big help. IIRC those where not in widespread use in Europe in the early 90ies and would be rare and much thought after in the T2k universe.
All of these are (again from my personal point of view!!!) not usable as weapon.
Pocket knives are a very common item, multitools would be "rare" or "scarce".

Now, to come to a point: As far as I know, most soldiers get a pocket knife as part of their personal equipment. The majority of "soldiers" (In the broadest sense of the word.) would have a field/utility/hunting knife with them. Those lucky few, who get a M9-bayonet or similar designs, will propably try to keep hold of it. From all I've read, it seems to be a usable knife. A bayonet of the dagger- or spike-type would not be of great value for the majority of soldiers.

One thing should not be forgotten: The AK-bayonets! These have one advantage: They can be used as wire-cutter. From all I know, the steel of the blade is quite soft, so it is very hard, to sharpen such a blade. But as they are part of the basic kit of most East European soldiers, there would be a big quantity of them (In game terms they are "very common".). I can imagine, that some people take one with them, just because of this wire-cutting-ability. It is not that heavy, but it's lousy (when used as a knife!).

The average soldier would have at least two blades with him: Pocket knife and a bigger knife (Depending on the situation, personal preference, the availability of items, and the allowance to pick up non-military items this would either be a hunting/utility knife or a military fighting knife or bayonet.). Whoever had the chance to pick one up, would have a multitool with him.
Specialised characters (the experienced hand-to-hand fighter or armed-melee guy) would, maybe additionally, have a commando-dagger or a pair of throwing knives with them. I don't think, that would be the norm.

One last point: Several tools have been mentioned earlier. I think, a lot of people would use axes, hatchets, folding spades, E-tools, and various kinds of clubs as weapons. But non of these can replace a knife. While you can chop or digg (on a limited basis) with a hatchet or a khukri, you can not ... peel a potato with an axe!

More than 2 cents this time. I hope, I did not go over the top with this posting. Any critics and thoughts are welcome. And thanks for reading this rather lengthy "omnibus volume" ...


* I don't even know, if this is an English term, but Gerber sells a knife, that is called "Big Rock Camp Knife".

[Legbreaker]

I'd say your post sums the situation up very well. In game terms then you really only need stats for the three categories rather then separate, individual blades. There are of course some exceptions to the rule though such as the plastic knife in the Special Forces book. Knives are useful in combat, but firearms of all types are used about a thousand times more often, even by PCs.

[weswood]

As far as knives go, my vote is for the Marine Corps K-Bar. I've used mine for everything from prying open and nailing closed wood crates, skinning & butchering deer, and general camp chores like clearing saplings and cutting rope. Thank God I've never had to use it for combat, though.

[Brother in Arms]

I think you'd see all kinds of knives and other melee weapons being carried. I really like home made theater knives. But I have always gravitated to military knives....

Here are some of my favorites..
1918 trench Knife
"KABAR" Conetta M7 Bayonet (basickly an M7 handle with a KABAR blade fits M16 rifles)
Arkansas Toothpick
Confederate D guard Bowie
Finnish Pukko

Im also a huge fan of belt,axes hatchets and tomahawks but only the 18th century sort like long hunters and trapper carried I hate the modern ones.

Brother in Arms

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

...axes hatchets and tomahawks but only the 18th century sort like long hunters and trapper carried I hate the modern ones.

I used to carry one on my webbing as both tool and "backup weapon" in case my M60 had a fatal stoppage. Drew a few second glances I must say.
Tried a 1907 SMLE bayonet for a while, but it was a little long and unwieldy when crawling, and was near useless as a tool.

[Targan]

A late friend of mine had a beautiful Gerber tomahawk with a synthetic (carbon fibre or fibreglass) handle. It came with fast-release plastic belt-mounted quarter scabbard. I was impressed by it's design, weight and balance. I think it would've made a very effective and brutal hand to hand weapon as well as a handy tool. it was very light for its size.

[weswood]

When I played around with the SCA my prefered weapon was an axe. I liked a small double bladed head with a haft around 30". With it I could catch an opponent's weapon between the blade and the haft tying it up while I struck with a secondary weapon. Or I could catch his shield and yank it out of the way to for a strike.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

A late friend of mine had a beautiful Gerber tomahawk with a synthetic (carbon fibre or fibreglass) handle. It came with fast-release plastic belt-mounted quarter scabbard. I was impressed by it's design, weight and balance. I think it would've made a very effective and brutal hand to hand weapon as well as a handy tool. it was very light for its size.

I've almost ordered one, a couple of times now. I'd probably never use it, though, and despite the alarming number of folks out there (growing every day, it seems) that actually believe in a coming Zombacalypse, I just don't see it happening.

As to bladed weapons in T2K, one of my favorite PCs carries a hatchet. He recently used it in combat (after carrying it around for two years, RT) for the very first time, to great, if messy, effect.