British MBTs

[James Langham]

Draft 1

Still to be added:

* REME vehicles
* Bridge layers
* RE Vehicles
* RA OP Tanks

* Organisations?
* Crew equipment?

Any comments or suggestions welcome.

[schnickelfritz]

Fantastic work! I can't wait to read of the specialist/engineering versions!

Would there have been any Centurions except as range targets or in museums by the Twilight War?

-Dave

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

Fantastic work! I can't wait to read of the specialist/engineering versions!

Would there have been any Centurions except as range targets or in museums by the Twilight War?

-Dave

Thanks.

I like the Centurion so yes! AVRE105 and 165 plus some with RA as OP tanks.

[ArmySGT.]

There are all the Israeli Centurion conversions too. No reason that UK spy agencies might not be looking into those conversions in the run up to the Twilight war.

[Legbreaker]

Not to mention those in museums or private collections. I believe there's even a few old tanks which have been turned into farm tractors or logging machinery. Their weapons may be long gone, but their armour is still there... Doesn't take a huge amount of work to throw on a couple of machineguns, and with a decent workshop heavier weapons could be installed (if available).

[Rainbow Six]

Weren't the Royal Marines still using the Centurion as a Beach Armoured Recovery Vehicle until well into the 90's (at least) IRL?

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

There are all the Israeli Centurion conversions too. No reason that UK spy agencies might not be looking into those conversions in the run up to the Twilight war.

What the heck would one need spies for that for. Merkavas maybe?, but the Patton and centurion conversions were well known at that time. Nothing secrete about them at that time.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not to mention those in museums or private collections. I believe there's even a few old tanks which have been turned into farm tractors or logging machinery. Their weapons may be long gone, but their armour is still there... Doesn't take a huge amount of work to throw on a couple of machineguns, and with a decent workshop heavier weapons could be installed (if available).

And the Main guns could be replaced with ones from other afvs that were badly damaged in a battle. Maybe not what the originals were but allot of kit bashing could be done. Would make for some interesting
AFVs.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Weren't the Royal Marines still using the Centurion as a Beach Armoured Recovery Vehicle until well into the 90's (at least) IRL?

Yes I plan to include just for completeness.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

What the heck would one need spies for that for. Merkavas maybe?, but the Patton and centurion conversions were well known at that time. Nothing secrete about them at that time.

Yes, at least in the '90s and '00s, the Israeli's actively marketted some of their add-on passive armor packages for their M48s, M60s, and Centurions. The Turks almost let the Israelis refurbish their M60s. The Israeli's likely helped the South Africans upgrade their Centurions (the Oliphant, IIRC) in the '80s and '90s and there's no secret about the reactive armor suites the Israelis were putting on their Centurions in the very early '80s.

As tensions rose in Europe after the Soviet invasion of China, the Brits could have done any or all of the above to quickly upgrade any of their remaining operational Centurions.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

What the heck would one need spies for that for. Merkavas maybe?, but the Patton and centurion conversions were well known at that time. Nothing secrete about them at that time.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Just because it is for sale or found in a museum park doesn't mean that was top of the line. The Israelis may have held back information or remove items. The Israeli method is not to throw something away but to repurpose that equipment. The Equipment moves down an echelon of readiness as something new is fielded. The Merkava is first line, with more Merkava in ready reserve call up, Sabras in active reserve being maintained and run monthly. The Centurions not in active use with the Engineers in the counter mine / counter IED role between the kibbutzes would be in Depot for call up to Militia or Police units.

Small details can be significant facts in planning a military campaign. If the Israelis for instance misrepresented the operational range of a Centurion with a new power pack, it would be a rude surprise to find Centurions 100km further on than your war plans called for if your the Syrians or the Egyptians.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

And the Main guns could be replaced with ones from other afvs that were badly damaged in a battle. Maybe not what the originals were but allot of kit bashing could be done. Would make for some interesting AFVs.

Or a length of pipe and a coat of paint could create the illusion of a decent weapon installed. For an example look at Oddballs tanks in Kelly Heros. Throw in a couple of SFX squibs and you'd give a group of bandits something to think twice about!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

Would there have been any Centurions except as range targets or in museums by the Twilight War?

-Dave

V1? Bunches. V2/2.2? With war clouds stirring around since the early 1990s, the British might have kept the more serviceable ones around just in case -- a SLEP might have even been undertaken.

[James Langham]

Anyone have a date the RA Centurions were withdrawn to be converted to AVRE 105s?

Centurion BARV is actually still in service so will definately be included.

Article still expanding...

[Canadian Army]

I got this from Janes, I hope this helps:

Development/DescriptionThe Centurion Mk 5 Assault Vehicle Royal Engineers (or AVRE) wasdeveloped by the Fighting Vehicles Research and DevelopmentEstablishment (now the Military Vehicles and EngineeringEstablishment) to replace the Churchill AVRE which entered serviceshortly after the end of the Second World War. The first prototype ofthe Centurion AVRE was completed in 1957 with production beingundertaken in the early 1960s.During 1984 the first of a new variant of AVRE was delivered. Thiswas a conversion of the Centurion MBT once used by Royal Artilleryforward observation posts and these tanks retain their main 105 mm L7guns. They are thus known as AVRE 105s and the existing AVREs fittedwith the 165 mm demolition guns are known as AVRE 165s. The AVRE 105sare fitted with the mineplough only, although they are capable ofaccommodating the dozer blade and towing various trailers. The 105 mmgun is used to fire HESH ammunition only.The Centurion AVREs are used by only one unit, 32 Armoured EngineerRegiment, Royal Engineers, based in BAOR. Within this regiment theAVREs are used to equip three squadrons, each with three troops.Within each squadron the AVREs are divided into AVRE 165 troops orAVRE 105 troops with three AVREs to a troop.The Centurion AVRE is being supplemented in service by theChieftain AVRE (see previous entry) and when sufficient ChieftainAVREs are available the Centurion AVREs will be phased out of service.

[James Langham]

Still a work in progress (and growing...)

[Fusilier]

Some changes you might want to consider:

Illustration 6 says that it is a photo taken in February. There are evergreen trees in the background full of very green leaves.

Same with Illustration 14 - as Britain didn't enter the war in Germany until December but the vegetation suggests it is not winter.

[Rainbow Six]

Looking good so far.

Minor point...whilst one Regiment of the Household Cavalry was tasked with a Recce role, I believe the other was deployed to the BAOR as a Type 43 MBT Regiment (they swapped roles periodically).

IIRC the Regiment in the Recce role was tasked as follows:

One CVR(T) Squadron to the 5th Airborne Brigade

One CVR(T) Squadron to the 3rd Marine Brigade

One CVR(W) Squadron remained in the UK with a home defence role (can't confirm this but speculation is they would have formed part of a Special Duties Force to protect Her Maj and other members of the Government / Royal Family if the brown stuff hit the fan).

One Squadron to the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment (together with a Squadron from the MBT Regiment, hence the reason the MBT Regiment was a Type 43 - it was a Squadron short).

Cheers

(BTW pretty sure the Gurkhas also have (or at least had) a pipe band! )

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Some changes you might want to consider:

Illustration 6 says that it is a photo taken in February. There are evergreen trees in the background full of very green leaves.

Same with Illustration 14 - as Britain didn't enter the war in Germany until December but the vegetation suggests it is not winter.

Nice points - thanks - will change.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Looking good so far.

Minor point...whilst one Regiment of the Household Cavalry was tasked with a Recce role, I believe the other was deployed to the BAOR as a Type 43 MBT Regiment (they swapped roles periodically).

IIRC the Regiment in the Recce role was tasked as follows:

One CVR(T) Squadron to the 5th Airborne Brigade

One CVR(T) Squadron to the 3rd Marine Brigade

One CVR(W) Squadron remained in the UK with a home defence role (can't confirm this but speculation is they would have formed part of a Special Duties Force to protect Her Maj and other members of the Government / Royal Family if the brown stuff hit the fan).

One Squadron to the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment (together with a Squadron from the MBT Regiment, hence the reason the MBT Regiment was a Type 43 - it was a Squadron short).

Cheers

(BTW pretty sure the Gurkhas also have (or at least had) a pipe band! )

Will check the Household Cavalry - may change when war starts anyway.

Can I plead that Gurkhas are highlanders....?

[James Langham]

As ever nit picks comments etc welcome

[James Langham]

A few small edits and a few new variants plus a new assault gun.

[James Langham]

Here is the latest (greatly expanded version) - once I get feedback, I will incorporate changes, add vehicle stats and then format as UK Vehicle Guide Vol1 - MBTs.

Before I get asked plan (so far) is

Vol2 - Other armoured vehicles
Vol3 - Softskins

this will take some time...

As ever feedback and/or nitpicks are welcome.

[Rainbow Six]

Fantastic job James...can't wait to see volumes 2 and 3...