In MY Twilight:2000...what are your variants or canon-breaks?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've talked about my T2k options I'd have in my T2k game both globally and locally; what are yours?

One I've decided I'll put in is that stateside the US still has many, many operational AFVs - a lot of them museum pulls so it's not uncommon to see a Sherman providing overwatch for an armored infantry company that moves around in an M113 and M56, for example. (Gas/alcohol to move them is another matter...)

[Olefin]

In mine I have the US pulling Sheridans out of storage for use in light infantry and MP divisions as well as raiding museums and private collections for older vehicles like Shermans that are still operable. Also have the M8 AGS going into service in early 1997 and being issued to a few divisions before production stopped after the nuclear exchange.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Olefin

as well as raiding museums and private collections for older vehicles like Shermans that are still operable.

This.

There's about 1500 usable armored vehicles in the CONUS in my T2k timeline, that's about 3 armored divisions worth...but they're scattered in kampfgruppes all across the US except in the southwest, where they tend to be concentrated in pre-TDM brigade-strength units for fighting the Mexicans and Division Cuba forces. Not all of these are "main battle" tanks, and not all of the main battle tanks are approaching modern - the majority are armored infantry fighting vehicles going all the way back to the M3 halftrack, and including armored humvees and armored cars, some M56 APCs, and so forth. Of the tanks, few M1s of any stripe are out there although there are some, a rare few (4-5?) S120/M60-2000s. Most are M60A3s or A4s, M48A5s, with more than a few "appropriated" M4s, M41s, etc (about 300 or so from various armor museums, private collectors, that sort of thing). Plus more than a few M551s.

The real impact these have isn't on the battlefield, it's on the local areas they're near: either CIVGOV or MILGOV, when an armored team sets up shop near your town it can be a real curse: grease, oil, and just about any other POL products are "bought" up - usually with nearly worthless scrip or pre-war dollars. But at the same time the presence of an M3 and an improvised armored car bristling with machine-guns and 30-40 troops and their light-to-medium weapons to boot can mean the difference between being forcibly annexed by New American marauders and continuing to live a relatively peaceful existence.

Hmm, I may just have a story/supplement in there somewhere...

[Olefin]

I completely agree with you about their impact. Its one of the things that the GDW modules completly missed and one of their biggest failings. Which is why I am about to go out on a limb and follow Chico with a non-canon timeline addressing stuff like that.

Look at New America. While they are a lot better armed than the average civilian or police force a few Shermans or Sheridans would be a lot more than they could handle in most places.

And while they couldnt stand up to real MBT's unless you are on the Mexican front you wont be seeing MBT's to fight. At best you might be up against an armored car or truck armed with machine guns.

And if the non-canon Mexican Army sourcebook I saw a few weeks ago is indicative of what Mexico has then a Sheridan could still be very effective against them.

[boogiedowndonovan]

off the top of my head

units left out of the vehicle guides/orbats, for example US 177th armored, 193rd Infantry, Berlin Brigade, 173rd infantry, British and German Territorials, 3rd Netherlands Marine Corps battalion stationed on Aruba, etc, etc

with the draft reinstated, more units being formed

Operation Omega: I never bought into "US leaves ALL heavy equipment behind" since Going Home says that there is plent of room for everyone (I think, can't remember dont have it in front of me)

Belgium: Belgians don't roll over for the French, since over 50% of Belgians speak a variation of Dutch. Instead they honor their NATO commitments, send Paracommando Regt. to Norway, I corps to Germany (perhaps like the Dutch and Danes) then everything goes to crap after the nukes, French invade Belgium and establish Dead Zone, Belgian armed forces disintegrate, breaking into French speaking groups and Dutch speaking groups and head for home.

[Olefin]

I agree for sure with the Belgians - the ones who dont speak French have no love for them at all - so where is that half of Belguim seceding and a civil war breaks out in Belguim or fighting the incoming French forces?

[pmulcahy11b]

Definitely a deal-breaker: a unit composed entirely of Elmer Fudd clones!

[pmulcahy11b]

My primary variants are in what didn't actually get hit, and in what equipment, weapons, or vehicles made it to the party and what didn't.

My big one is the amount of megatonnage that hit San Antonio. I don't think there'd be enough left to have a Red Star, Lone Star. In campaigns I've run, the Soviet missiles bound for SA were taken out by US missiles who just happened to have hit the Soviet silos as the Soviet missiles were leaving theirs. A bit out there, but it could happen...

[dude_uk]

Britain
- Re-raising of units to justify the enlarged British army presence
- Territorial and reserve ORBATS
- Mechanised Territorial units.
- SOME units back home armed with L1A1's and Sterling's.
- British Army using Challenger 1's and 2's along with Cheiftains. No Centurions.
- Junking of most the gimmicky enemies in the UK (i.e The Red devils, the gang who wore suits etc) and replacing them with more feasible groups.
- Enlarged Nuke strike.


World
- Greece and Italy declare war on NATO? Nope.
- 'Pyrrhic' NATO victory in Atlantic. Soviet fleet destroyed. But NATO too weak to take advantage.

[Targan]

Wherever possible in my campaigns I don't contradict canon. But I'm happy to add information to the game where it isn't contradictory, or where canon has big gaps. I don't get upset when I read discussions on data that is contrary to canon, but my fundamental point has always been this: if you move away from canon so much that the US remains a major military force late in the Twilight War (2001-onwards) you remove most of what makes T2K the game that it is. At that point I mentally switch off, because my interest in T2K is as a post apocalyptic RPG, not an exercise in roleplaying US forces dominating the world in a post-nuke environment.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That's a good point, Targan; the thrust of T2k is people surviving under beyond desperate situations. Personally I think fiddling a little with this or that stateside situation isn't changing that much but like you I tend to MEGO when people start talking about the US still having three or four operational carriers, no civgov/milgov split, or DC didn't get hit at all, there's still POL available for air ops, etc.

That is, to me, like saying "Oh I play AD&D all the time - I just use 3e's Feats system, and 4e's Powers, and there are no level caps or class restrictions for demi-humans..." There's just a point at which you tip the balance and it's not AD&D (or rather, Twilight:2000) any more.

[B.T.]

From my point of view, Targan and raketenjagdpanzer mentioned the main point: How much change works without tossing it to far?

I change a lot of smaller details. If I think, a unit is too weak for the purpose of my game sessions, I make them a little stronger or give a certain unit (from which canon says, they have no tanks) some tanks. Or I change the TOE for units (allthough this does not interfere with canon, as I understand it).

A lot of info on the history is rubbish. Especially the weired idea, Greek and Italy would unite against NATO; I mean WTF!? But if I try to change this, I have really difficulties in explainig the overall situation in Southern Germany, for example.

If I can add more detail, I take this. Changing the data for vehicles or weapons is something I try to optimize.

[Olefin]

you can make changes to canon but do it where it doesnt change the game in a huge way - i.e. you can have american carriers that are still operational but have no fuel for their airplanes. However that still means that you have a very good nuclear powered ship for use for transporting stuff across the oceans - a la Omega or the reinforcement to the RDF in Dec 2000.

In my campaign in the end we decided that Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped make no sense from an ecological and environment standpoint. The idea of the huge drought that destroys what is left of the US basically and kills off 75 percent plus of the population while Europe and the RDF get lots of rain just made for bad story telling. I..e - since we cant figure out what to do with the US so lets just kill it off.

Sorry that is just bad rushed story telling. For instance in Howling Wilderness only 1600 of the 30,000 plus men that come home are used as replacements? Sorry but you dont use a ton of fuel, abandon hundreds of irreplaceable armored vehicles and aircraft in Europe to bring home men who do nothing.

Not when you have whole areas falling into anarchy and enemy invaders and marauders all over areas like Texas that are crucial to the future of the country.

And having the Oklahoma enclave fall and be erased - again bad story telling.

So when canon makes no sense - you ignore it -and come up with a better story.

So what did we do - we used the men to build up new units and reinforce old ones and started the US on a path toward recovery. One that compared to Howling Wildnerness could actually result in the 2300 AD timeline working. And we had droughts - but not the uber drought that basically killed the US that is supposedly canon.

And unlike others I can see Italy and Greece declare war on NATO. Remember when the canon was written and how socialistic both nations were then. Neither of them were exactly brimming with pro-US factions ready to fight to the death for Germany and the US.

[Targan]

I'm not a climatologist so I can't claim to have expert knowledge but I do have a pretty broad general knowledge. Also, I live in a country which, in recent decades, has seen crippling droughts that in all likelihood were the result of climate change brought about by human activities. I don't find the drought posited in Howling Wilderness to be so unrealistic as to be thrown out wholesale. In any case, in your campaign you could have the drought ending within a couple of years. That wouldn't see the US knocked back to the stone age.

As for US carriers roaming the high seas, I could maybe see a couple within a few years of 2001 being brought back into service. There have been discussions on this forum about US carriers and other major surface combatants being beached, docked or stranded for one reason or another that could be brought back into action. But a US carrier participating in Op Omega? Sorry, but that directly contradicts canon so for any campaign I would run, there's not a compelling enough reason for me to include it.

[Olefin]

Not if the carrier is basically a large cargo ship. Those hangar decks would be perfect for carrying a lot of vehicles and a ship like that can hold 5000 men or more. And remember its not coming to operate aircraft - if anything it may be a landing pad for whatever helos and planes can get enough fuel to land on it - i.e. AV-8, AH-64, etc..

And keep in mind - the US is supposedly powerful enough that in 300 years its the second biggest space power after the French. There is no way after an uber drought that kills off most of the remaining population and destroys almost all of its remaining military forces that happens. It would take hundreds of years before you had anything more powerful than horse cavalry carrying rifles with a loss of people and technology like that. There wouldnt be an America left - and a few thousand troops in Iran arent enough to rebuild the US all by themselves.

And I dont see the French and the UK rebuilding the US or offering much help to the pitiful few survivors - almost all of whom are sitting deep in the interior of the country and thus cut off from even the RDF guys doing anything.

As for directly contradicting canon - the canon also says every USN SSN is lost except one - I have talked to a bunch of guys about that including naval veterans and there is no way that happens. If a Soviet Boomer survived then a bunch of Ohios had to.

Especially since canon suggests (the Caribbean module for instance) that there are still operational submarines out there. Otherwise why do the French twice attack the Corpus Cristi - if all the subs are gone why are they looking for subs not just in the Med but in the Channel as well?

And really insisting on canon on a game that isnt being supported anymore is sort of like insisting that we all keep using card sorters and Commodore 64's instead of modern computers.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And really insisting on canon on a game that isnt being supported anymore is sort of like insisting that we all keep using card sorters and Commodore 64's instead of modern computers.

That is certainly one view.

[Targan]

Olefin, if you and your players are completely disllusioned with parts of the canon material, and altering it to be more palatable results in you being able to run a campaign, more power to you. An altered timeline and changes to canon are small prices to pay for there to be more T2K campaigns in the world.

[Webstral]

I should clarify, because my comment above makes it sound like I am a canon defender. I don't think purists would save a place for me in their formation. The established body of material has to be adjusted to allow for the fallability of the GDW team. I have invested considerable time in revamping some of the areas they dismissed, like nothern New England, southern Arizona, and Nevada.

[Rainbow Six]

The canon Survivor's Guide to the UK was a huge disappointment to me. It had a number of out and out factual errors, paid no more than lip service to the Territorial Army (and completely omitted to mention the Home Service Force) and had a number of proposals that in my opinion were simply not plausible - DudeUK has already mentioned the gimmicky marauder groups, and as for the idea of the Queen abdicating...eh, no, don't think so.

Hence the reason I've spent the last few years working on an alternate version that currently runs to approx 105 pages / 45,000 words and still isn't finished (I really must get my finger out and get some work done - Dude UK, marauder groups will probably be the next section completed!).

To summarise the changes

• A considerably expanded - and hopefully more realistic - Order of Battle that includes a small number of surviving Royal Navy warships and RAF aircraft.
• The Queen remains on the Throne until the nuclear exchanges when both she and Prince Charles are killed so Prince William ascends the Throne
• More meddling by the French
• No invasion of Northern Ireland by the Republic
• Slightly amended nuclear target list
• Some changes to Scotland - basically the Separatists only control part of the Central Belt, not the whole country - HMG still retains an enclave in the North.. I also discarded the Royal Army of Scotland and gave the Separatists an alternative Defence Force
• Discarded most of the marauder groups listed to be replaced by my own creations (a notable exception is the Duke of Cornwall, who I retained and expanded on)
• A whole host of minor changes - different Prime Minister, that sort of thing

With the exception of the situation in NI, I have retained the overall "look" of the UK put forward by canon - i.e. HMG still only controls south east England, parts of Wales and Scotland have declared independence, and much of the rest of the country is in anarchy.

I would like to think that the changes I've made don't radically change the basic tenets of the game as far as the global situation is concerned - for example, I would hope that the small number of operational warships doesn't give the impression that the Royal Navy is going to rule the High Seas.

[95th Rifleman]

The biggest change we have in our T2k games is the date, we shift the whole thing to the 80's but keep the timeline going pretty much as V1 reads.
It works surprisngly well and there is no fuss sourcing rules and material to cover the kit.

There are a few changes to the UK. I don't think many UK gaming groups ever used the wacky gang crap from survivor's guide. The main domestic enemies for our version are an organised and armed National Front and a much more active IRA. Princess Diana and the boys have been evacuated to Canada to keep a secure line of succession, Elisabeth II dies in London, refusing to abandon the capital and Charles becomes king.

However we prefer to set our games in Poland so the domestic background is normaly a moot point.

[Olefin]

Rainbow Six - I would love to see what you have on the UK as I agree with you on much of what was in the Survivors Guide to the UK - frankly some of the marauder groups in that guide made me wonder if a Monty Python writer had been part of its development.

And I agree whole heartedly about the Queen never abdicating and dying in London along with Charles in the attack. Especially considering she saw her father stay in London during the Blitz during WWII and what that meant for morale.

One thing I was expecting to see in the UK guide also was a lot of lets say unique hand weapons - while there arent a lot of guns in the UK there are a lot of museums and private collections full of some very interesting and fully functional medieval weapons. And you would be surprised at how many good archers there are still in some areas of the UK and Ireland. An English longbow, in the hands of a trained archer, is a very very dangerous weapon - and silent as well until the guy in your unit has an arrow sticking out of his chest.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Rainbow Six - I would love to see what you have on the UK as I agree with you on much of what was in the Survivors Guide to the UK - frankly some of the marauder groups in that guide made me wonder if a Monty Python writer had been part of its development.

And I agree whole heartedly about the Queen never abdicating and dying in London along with Charles in the attack. Especially considering she saw her father stay in London during the Blitz during WWII and what that meant for morale.

One thing I was expecting to see in the UK guide also was a lot of lets say unique hand weapons - while there arent a lot of guns in the UK there are a lot of museums and private collections full of some very interesting and fully functional medieval weapons. And you would be surprised at how many good archers there are still in some areas of the UK and Ireland. An English longbow, in the hands of a trained archer, is a very very dangerous weapon - and silent as well until the guy in your unit has an arrow sticking out of his chest.

The problem is finding skilled archers.

The British did not train archers in the middle ages, we bred them. Boys would start from around the age of 10 to 12 and develop their skills over years. At one point archery was required by law and many games and pastimes where banned in order to keep the youth of the country practising archery.

It was the devlopment of the crossbow and later on the musket that allowed for trained professionals to be effective in a relatively short time.

[Medic]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The problem is finding skilled archers.

The British did not train archers in the middle ages, we bred them. Boys would start from around the age of 10 to 12 and develop their skills over years. At one point archery was required by law and many games and pastimes where banned in order to keep the youth of the country practising archery.

It was the devlopment of the crossbow and later on the musket that allowed for trained professionals to be effective in a relatively short time.

If I do recall correctly, some British Navy ships carried longbows as secondary armament as late as the late 19th century. The longbow was pretty much equivalent to modern machineguns in medieval warfare as a skilled archer could fire about twelve arrows a minute. Multiply that by 50 or 100 and you get a bunch of hedgehogs on the other side...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I kind of have to agree with Olefin; there's a lot of things in Howling Wilderness that just leave me flat - seriously, FL down to a population of 50000? And there's nearly that many alive in NYC alone, and Central Park, ripped up streets (ha) and rooftop gardens is enough food to keep that population there alive - through 3 post-bomb NE winters? Yeah no.

FL exports more food of all kinds than it imports, period. I could accept a near 90% depopulation of the state after the hurricanes but that still leaves 2.2 million. Given that Orlando isn't on the strike list and that on Thanksgiving Day there'd be a lot of people in Central Florida...well, yeah, I don't agree with 100% canon.

But there's a danger with going against canon or throwing up your hands and saying "Too much of this doesn't make sense" and it goes back to the old D&D paradigm - you can accept a game where a guy in a blue robe and pointy hat can wiggle his fingers and cause 33,000 square feet to burst into flames hot enough to melt gold, soften iron and warp steel and barbeque anyone caught in it, but you can't accept that elves leave off being fighters after 7th level?

Ultimately a game is in the hands of its players. One of the admonishments Mr. Gygax always gave was that modules were skeletal frameworks on which DMs could build campaigns and further flesh out adventures. In the great B2 Keep on the Borderlands, why are the monsters in basically a Conapt less than a mile from a castle teeming with humans? Well...that's a question for the DM running the adventure to answer. I myself love the "Against the Giants" series of modules...but "Descent into the Depths of the Earth" not so much, and Q1 not at all. So it's up to me as a DM to change things around so maybe I run G1, G2 and G3 but it leads a whole different direction.

I, as a T2k "game-master" have the same prerogative. I think the "90% of the population dies" of Howling Wilderness is silly, so I'll ignore it/change it.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Rainbow Six - I would love to see what you have on the UK as I agree with you on much of what was in the Survivors Guide to the UK - frankly some of the marauder groups in that guide made me wonder if a Monty Python writer had been part of its development.

Olefin, check out this thread for where I'm at at the moment...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2947

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

Operation Omega: I never bought into "US leaves ALL heavy equipment behind" since Going Home says that there is plent of room for everyone (I think, can't remember dont have it in front of me)

I always though that Omega would be two or three runs, and with the US mainland invaded on two fronts, I can't see the US leaving any armour behind. I invsion a chop shop operation that allow for equipement to disassembyed and sent home, I also see resource recovery teams being sent out to find items needed, Ammo, POL, Salvage, Food ect, both in europe and the US

[schnickelfritz]

I've been working on a narrative that tells a tale where the US 5th ID (M) isn't completely destroyed.

I think it's relatively plausable, but it is certainly a departure from canon...and I like it.

The fact that I sense that Leg doesn't is a bit of a bonus, har har.

What I wanted was the ability to create some sort of campaign with units like I see in the RDF sourcebook, and after getting a pdf copy of the Eastern European Sourcebook, it made it easier to tackle.

I also use the M8 Buford AGS instead of the LAV-75. I'm still a bit stuck on what the heck to do with the MPGS-90 from the US Army VG.

I also keep the US 43rd MP Brigade from disintegrating. Colonel Fort dies of stress related natural causes and returning European Theater vets help reassert control and cooperation with the Isolationists.

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

I've been working on a narrative that tells a tale where the US 5th ID (M) isn't completely destroyed.

I think it's relatively plausable, but it is certainly a departure from canon...and I like it.

The fact that I sense that Leg doesn't is a bit of a bonus, har har.

Do what you like, it's your game. You might want to be careful that it doesn't upset the balance too much though and give Nato too much power. Try beefing up one or more of the Pact units to compensate.

As Targan has said, change is good, as long as it doesn't give one side or the other an undeserved edge thereby radically altering the world. Even doubling the number or tanks a Division has on hand, or introducing a nuclear powered ship into the North Sea will seriously destabilise the delicate balance the designers created and result in a completely different strategic situation.

Every change can have unintended consequences. Every change needs to be thoroughly thought out with ALL the implications explored.

[Olefin]

One change in my timeline concerned Omega and it was the US ordering an initial withdrawal of a couple of divisions with their equipment before the general Omega order was given. Thus those units got to keep their heavies since that order was given prior to the deal with the Germans to evac the rest of the US forces.

And considering the state of the Mexican forces in the Texas module even one division with some tanks may be all it takes now to get most of the Texas Gulf Coast back to the US while still leaving a pretty big area of Texas to form an independent Texas state as well.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

The fact that I sense that Leg doesn't is a bit of a bonus, har har.

Although I generally don't like emoticons, this would be a good place for a smiley face.

Legbreaker and I aren't on the best of terms, but I try to avoid giving the impression that I want bad blood. My remark about his preference for the Mad Max end of the spectrum was intended as an honest summary of the tenor of his posts and observations over the past few years, not as an effort to denigrate his preferences. I would be unhappy to believe that I have opened the door on a hatin' session towards any member of the forum who prefers to stick to the published material.