Notice of Ban

[Raellus]

Recent events have demanded that the board moderators move to take action in order to restore and preserve the atmosphere of civility and constructive dialogue that we strive to maintain here on this forum. This action is based on multiple complaints that we have received from multiple users over the past 60 days. Public and private warnings to the parties in question have been issued and ignored. Therefore, more stringent action was called for. This decision has been a lengthy, diffilcult, and unpleasant one for us to make, and this action has not been taken lightly.

After much consideration and deliberation, myself, Webstral, and Headquarters have decided to take the following administrative actions:

Targan's moderator privileges have been suspended for 30 days, effective immediately. He will still be allowed to open new threads and/or participate in forum discussions just like any user, but his moderator powers have been revoked for a thirty day period. Any violations of forum guidelines during this suspension will result in a full temporary ban.

Olefin has been banned from ALL forum activities for a 30-day period, effective immediately. This includes but is not limited to starting new threads, responding to existing threads, and/or sending unsolicited PMs. As long as Olefin remains in compliance with the terms of this ban for the full 30-day period, he will be allowed to continue viewing threads in the forum. At the end of this 30-day period, the ban will be lifted and Olefin will be permitted to resume full participation in all forum activities as long as he abides by all forum guidelines. However, any subsequent violations of forum guidelines may result in an extended temporary ban or full lifetime ban.

Any violations of this temporary ban will result in a lifetime ban. ANY attempts to circumvent this ban, including but not limted to reregistering under a pseudonym or using another user's account to post in the forum, will result in a lifetime ban from this forum and/or its future itterations.

Legbreaker has been issued an official public warning regarding his recent forum behavior. Any subsequent violations of forum guidelines will result in a 60-day, temporary ban.

At the end of this 30-day period, this public notice will be deleted from the forum.

If you have questions or concerns about these actions, please don't hesitate to PM me. However, please understand that these decisions are final.

[Legbreaker]

What is the reasoning behind Targans demotion?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What is the reasoning behind Targans demotion?

Targan suggested it. He felt that a couple of the posts he made regarding Olefin's demeanor here did not reflect the values of the forum, nor befit the responsiblities of a moderator. He holds himself to very high standards. His fellow mods considered his request and decided, in the interest of fairness, to respect it and impose a temporary suspension, concurrent with Olefin's 30-day, temporary ban. Targan will be reinstated as a moderator when Olefin's ban expires.

For his part, Olefin has accepted his own ban and agreed to abide by it.

[Heffe3737]

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I had a couple of thoughts on this subject in case you mods would like to hear from a forum newbie.

First, let me say that I fully respect whatever decisions that have been made. A lot of you guys apparently go back pretty far together, and so anyone new to the board is going to have to take it on faith that you're doing the right thing with this notice and the subsequent actions.

Second, this life takes all kinds. Some people like to argue and debate because they feel that these discussions bring out the best way forward for the community, while others see hard debate as arguing for arguments sake. Neither of these two views is inherently wrong. What is wrong, and this is true of any community's culture, is failure to give others the benefit of the doubt. I deal with community cultures on a daily basis, and time and again this is a threat to the ongoing positivity of a community. Assuming makes an ass, as they say...

Finally, I just want to note that this board has truly inspired me. Not the drama and whatever bullshit happens to be occurring right this instant, but the fact that there are still so many folks out there, that like me, find this game so fascinating after all this time. Hell, I'm now involved in my first t2k game in probably 15 years, and I'm lovin it!

So let's everyone keep it all in perspective. This game rocks, you all are amazing for keeping this community alive for all these years regardless of the drama, and let's move it forward shall we?

Heffe3737
P.s. And shameless plug--we can still use more players in the pbem campaign, so quit the drama and come actually play for gods sake! :P thank you for reading.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Heffe raises some good points but I think it could go a little further.
What I think this community could do, is produce a Twilight: 2000 ezine.

Yeah it means somebody or a group has to take charge, host the download site, get the legal permissions, issue deadlines, get people enthusiastic about being contributors, edit submissions, check for quality etc. etc. but some of you have been doing pretty similar duties already with your own works.

What it would mean is that people can write up their own campaigns, their own take on the T2k universe, write up new OrBats/equipment/vehicles etc. etc. without the potential for conflict that can be found on forums - with a magazine, you either like it and use it, or you ignore it.
It could also provide motivation for those people who have something to contribute but haven't found the push to do so yet.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

What I think this community could do, is produce a Twilight: 2000 ezine.

This would be an excellent way for the community to develop the production and project management skills necessary for more substantial projects (and to identify writers who can turn in quality material on schedule).

- C.

[rcaf_777]

I must say that this comes as shock to myself as I had no idea this was going on, but these measures are just and fair.

I find thsi place a great place to come up with new ideas for an old game system I love to play, the only way this forum could better is if we make beer brewing system so I could drink while posting


All I want to place to post my stuff, share ideas and have a good time

[cavtroop]

Just adding my .02$ - thanks for staying on top of this. The drama in this forum has pretty much driven me away - rather than checking in several times a day, I've been checking in once a week or so, if that, recently.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Personally I think there's been some over-reaction from all parties involved because I think a 30 day ban from all forum activities for Olefin was a bit heavy handed. I'm not trying to defend him, just saying that I didn't disagree with what he was saying but I did disagree with HOW he was saying it. I think it was Tegyrius who came closest to explaining how we like to approach things here on this forum but I wonder if anyone ever explained that in plain and non-accusatory language to Olefin. Although he was supposed to be under a ban I see he was still posting several days after the announcement of said ban, how long does it take for the ban to actually start?

Also, it's stated that Targan lost his mod status. Until Legbreaker asked why Targan was penalized we were left to assume that the other mods punished Targan for his reactions to Olefin. We had no idea it was Targan himself who suggested his own suspension from mod duties. Little details like that can cause a lot of anxiety when they're left out. Speaking of Legbreaker, I take it that the mention that he was given a public warning was the actual public warning? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing a public warning?

I guess what I am saying is that with the little information that we as forum members had access to, I don't get some of the decisions that were made and I can very much understand if other forum members have been anxious or frustrated.

[Webstral]

Strenuous efforts were made to bring Olefin up to speed. As for the delivery of notice, I must take responsibility for the nature of the ban announcement. I had a real life situation intervene after I had agreed to take on the task of writing the narrative on behalf of the moderators. Raellus was good enough to step in when needed. We had agreed to expedite the process from decision to announcement and ban enforcement; Raellus kept to the intent of the timetable and offered a briefer but more timely narrative than I had hoped to craft.

If anyone has questions regarding the decision, I will do my best to answer them as completely and as honestly as propriety allows. I will respect the intent of all PM by keeping their contents undisclosed, however.

[Raellus]

I don't think airing dirty laundry is a particularly constructive forum activity, so I've kept most of what led to the ban off-stage, so to speak. Those who were following any one of the various threads where things were getting heated probably have a pretty good idea of why we did what we did. I'll offer a little more explanation here and then I'd really like to put the matter to bed and move on.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Personally I think there's been some over-reaction from all parties involved because I think a 30 day ban from all forum activities for Olefin was a bit heavy handed. I'm not trying to defend him, just saying that I didn't disagree with what he was saying but I did disagree with HOW he was saying it. I think it was Tegyrius who came closest to explaining how we like to approach things here on this forum but I wonder if anyone ever explained that in plain and non-accusatory language to Olefin. Although he was supposed to be under a ban I see he was still posting several days after the announcement of said ban, how long does it take for the ban to actually start?

Olefin received several PMs from myself, Webstral, and Targan, starting in early April, and then reiterated just a few days before the ban was decided and announced. Without going into great detail, he was calmly and respectfully asked to work on his tone a little. He was never censored nor asked to refrain from sharing his thoughts and opinions here. He was simply asked to work on his approach and delivery, in the interest of keeping things civil. In late April, we received a fresh batch of PM complaints about his perceived lack of forum ettiquete, and things again started getting very testy in several threads here on the forum. We felt that we had to take action to get things calmed down. He fairly graceful accepted our ruling and the action taken and I believe that this bodes well for his future here.

AFAIK, he hasn't posted since the ban. If he has, we need to know about it.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Also, it's stated that Targan lost his mod status. Until Legbreaker asked why Targan was penalized we were left to assume that the other mods punished Targan for his reactions to Olefin. We had no idea it was Targan himself who suggested his own suspension from mod duties. Little details like that can cause a lot of anxiety when they're left out. Speaking of Legbreaker, I take it that the mention that he was given a public warning was the actual public warning? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing a public warning?

I will let Targan speak for himself. We were in contact with him and the decision made on the administrative action we took was done so after consulting with him. We all, Targan included, felt that the action taken was appropriate. I apologize for not making this clear in the ban notice.

As for Legbreaker, the warning was in the notice of ban (the starter post of this thread)- it may have been poorly worded. I do not feel at liberty to divulge the reason behind the official public warning without his solicitation and/or consent.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I guess what I am saying is that with the little information that we as forum members had access to, I don't get some of the decisions that were made and I can very much understand if other forum members have been anxious or frustrated.

Like I said before, I really didn't think a public airing of dirty laundy would be helpful. The contents of private messages should stay private. All of us mods were in nearly constant contact via PM with concerned parties, one another, and the subjects of this ban/warning, for several days and weeks prior to the ban. I feel like I may have already divulged too much. I would like to think that we (the mods) have earned the trust of the forum membership by now. I have attempted to be as transparent as I thought was appropriate. In hindsight, we probably could have handled some of this situation better. Sometimes, tough decisions need to be made- and made quickly- and we accepted the responsiblity of doing so. I apologize for causing any anxiety or frustration. Please be assured that we are doing the best we can.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

AFAIK, he hasn't posted since the ban. If he has, we need to know about it.

Olefin's last post
05-14-2012, 04:58 PM CDT
(Note I can see deleted posts and he did not have any after that point)

Raellus' Ban Announcement Time
05-14-2012 07:43 PM CDT

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

As for Legbreaker, the warning was in the notice of ban (the starter post of this thread)- it may have been poorly worded. I do not feel at liberty to divulge the reason behind the official public warning without his solicitation and/or consent.

Consider my consent given.

I was in constant contact with Targan throughout this period, and Webstral and I communicated via a number of PM 's also. I abided by ALL requests from both moderators without argument and was open and honest with them at all times. I also received numerous messages of support from other members and not one complaint.

It must be noted there was no direct communication received by me from Raellus, General Pain, or Headquarters. In fact, it's notable that General Pain has not even logged in since mid April.

I have nothing to hide and have to admit to being somewhat surprised at the public notice because I had been led to believe I was cooperating 110%.

While I understand some of my posts may have been interpreted as oppositional (which would seem to be impossible to avoid given the issues involved), I am interested to know exactly which ones were deemed to be a problem and in breach of the forum guidelines.

In fact, we should all know so that we may ALL learn from it.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Consider my consent given.

I was in constant contact with Targan throughout this period, and Webstral and I communicated via a number of PM 's also. I abided by ALL requests from both moderators without argument and was open and honest with them at all times. I also received numerous messages of support from other members and not one complaint.

It must be noted there was no direct communication received by me from Raellus, General Pain, or Headquarters. In fact, it's notable that General Pain has not even logged in since mid April.

I have nothing to hide and have to admit to being somewhat surprised at the public notice because I had been led to believe I was cooperating 110%.

While I understand some of my posts may have been interpreted as oppositional (which would seem to be impossible to avoid given the issues involved), I am interested to know exactly which ones were deemed to be a problem and in breach of the forum guidelines.

In fact, we should all know so that we may ALL learn from it.

In that case...

You were sent a direct PM warning from me (CC'ed to all the mods) on April 9th entitled Civil Discourse reminding you that name-calling is not acceptable behavior here. It was in regards to a public post in which you called Olefin a "poor dilluded fool". If you would like me to resend it, please let me know.

Since then, the moderators have received two PM complaints about your forum behavior, each from a different user. The last one was received approximately two weeks ago. We felt that, all things considered, a ban, in your case, would be a bit harsh. However, considering that you were banned from the forum two years ago for engaging in pretty much the same behavior with Law, we felt a formal warning was both necessary and appropriate.

It takes two to tango and since you continued to engage Olefin in "debate" after both of you were asked privately and publicly to tone it down, we decided that, if we were to formally ban Olefin, we should issue you a formal public warning as well.

[kalos72]

Guys, its a couple days of R&R from the forums. Just means you can go out and get some sun now.

I have had my share of the ban stick on other sites...just suck it up and move past it. Its not that big a deal.

Also, in defense of ALL the mods, unless you've modded a forums before you have no idea how difficult it can be to maintain that fine line.

Lets all be thankful we still HAVE a forum like this to discuss and share our passion for the game in the first place.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Since then, the moderators have received two PM complaints about your forum behavior, each from a different user.

In the interest of openness, I'd like to know who it was that felt they couldn't talk directly to me by PM about their issues. I don't bite.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In the interest of openness, I'd like to know who it was that felt they couldn't talk directly to me by PM about their issues. I don't bite.

As Raellus has revealed that two people have privately complained about the behaviour of Legbreaker, then I think that these two people should come out and say publically what their complaint about Legreaker actually is in the interest of openess on this forum.

I like to talk about aspects of T2K with the other members on this forum and I like to debate points with them. Most of the people who I regularly talk with are willing to engage in a level headed and open debate and I never felt that I had to control my thoughts and oppinions. So far I don't think I've said anything to warrant any complaints and I've never been contacted by a moderator about it, but now I don't realy know what other people are thinking.

I've had some discussions with Olefin and Legbreaker on this forum and I've never felt offended by what they have said or have felt the need to privately complain about them. Perhaps Olefin took things a bit to far with his method or argument with other members and how he engages people, but he has been punished for it with a one month ban. Legbreaker has also had to publicaly take a lot of critism and defend himself over all of this. Whoever complained about him should come out and tell us all who they are and what their complaint is.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In the interest of openness, I'd like to know who it was that felt they couldn't talk directly to me by PM about their issues. I don't bite.

If they felt like they could talk to you about whatever it was that was bothering them, then they probably would have PMed you instead of us.

I could be wrong, though. So if those folks would like to address you directly, then I would encourage them to do so via PM. If they would like a referee, they could CC a mod or three. I'm not going to divulge the identity of the authors or the content of their PMs, however. As I said before, I think PMs should stay that way, unless they violate forum norms. If we'd placed a ban on you instead of just issuing a warning, then I think it would be only fair for you to get a chance to face your accuser. But since it was only a warning, I don't think that's necessary. You asked why you were issued a warning and I explained.

Leg, you seem to think that you didn't do anything wrong, so how would a fresh round of complaints lead to anything constructive? I really don't think a new cycle of public accuse-and-defend posts would contribute anything positive to this forum. It was that sort of heated, contentious, "debate" that led to the bans in the first place. It's clear that you like to argue, but, besides maybe RN7, most of the rest of us don't really enjoy being witnesses to it.

The fact that certain members don't have a problem with someone or something here, or that someone's received messages of support from others, doesn't mean that certain forum behaviors are appropriate or acceptable. We're all going to see things differently. But when we (the mods) receive multiple private complaints, and private warnings don't have the desired effect, then something else must be done. I've made it very clear why you were issued a public, official warning. There's really no point in going over this whole mess again and again. Please learn something from this and move on.

[simonmark6]

I disagree with that suggestion entirely. If people felt uncomfortable enough to use PMs to express their worries with the moderators then insisting that they declare themselves in some spirit of "openness" is most likely to just make them even more uncomfortable than they really are.

In the end the mods have made their decision and I was happy to draw a line under the issue and move on. If other people aren't we are in danger of just spiraling back into the arguments again.

I made a fool of myself with a public resignation which was really a self-imposed ban as I found myself getting increasingly frustrated and wanting to start arguing as well. I felt that would be detrimental to the board thus I took myself away until my life had evened out enough to be able to deal with the board like an adult again.

On my return I was relieved to see that the status quo was starting to be re-established: this is in danger of flying apart again. I understand that people feel the need to have their accuser speak to them directly but that is a dangerous precedent to set: we trust the moderators to keep the board the way we want it and their decision is, in my opinion final and it is damaging to keep questioning that process here.

I apologise if I have offended anyone with this post, but I am concerned that we'll now be swamped with calls for people to stand up and say if they were the complainants and I believe that that will be a very dangerous precedent to set.

Openness and freedom of speech is a fine thing but so is the protection of trust and confidentiality. The people that made PM complaints to the mods trusted that their confidentiality would be preserved and we have to accept that if they had felt confident enough to speak to Leg personally, they would have. Forcing them to do that now is tantamount to bullying and I am strongly against that in any form.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Leg, you seem to think that you didn't do anything wrong, so how would a fresh round of complaints lead to anything constructive? I really don't think a new cycle of public accuse-and-defend posts would contribute anything positive to this forum. It was that sort of heated, contentious, "debate" that led to the bans in the first place. It's clear that you like to argue, but, besides maybe RN7, most of the rest of us don't really enjoy being witnesses to it.

I don't like witnessing arguments and I don't care to have my name dragged through all of this just because I defended someone who has been very publically critisised, and because I stated my own worries about something I don't agree with. I have a right to say and discuss things without being publicaly put down by you.

Why did you have to publically air all of this? Perhaps publically questioning who was privatlely accusing him it wasn't the wisest thing for Legbreaker to do, but you told the whole forum that they did so I think the man has the right to ask who it was.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by RN7

I don't like witnessing arguments and I don't care to have my name dragged through all of this just because I defended someone who has been very publically critisised, and because I stated my own worries about something I don't agree with. I have a right to say and discuss things without being publicaly put down by you.

I apologize for insinuating that you enjoy witnessing arguments. It was not meant as a put-down. If people publicly confront Legbreaker about his forum beheavior, precedent strongly suggests an argument will ensue.

Originally Posted by RN7

Why did you have to publically air all of this? Perhaps publically questioning who was privatlely accusing him it wasn't the wisest thing for Legbreaker to do, but you told the whole forum that they did so I think the man has the right to ask who it was.

The current ban was publicly announced because the last ban (also involving Legbreaker) was publicly announced by the forum admin two years ago. We wanted people to know that we'd dealt with the problem. There's also the thought that a public notice would encourage, not only the afore-mentioned parties, but everyone who read it, to behave in a more civil, constructive manner.

[Cdnwolf]

Maybe its time to lock this thread.

[Medic]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Maybe its time to lock this thread.

Seconded.

[Tegyrius]

Plus one, as the kids say.

Leg, PM inbound.

- C.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Maybe its time to lock this thread.

I think that that would be wise......

[Webstral]

I’m locking this thread. I have burned up enough of my limited Twilight: 2000 time trying to sort through hurt feelings, he-said-I-said, and the re-opening of old wounds instead of creating new material. Were I a gambling man, I’d put money down that the other mods feel the same way. I’ll let that money ride that more than half of the people who come here want an end to the drama, not a sequel. Enough already.

If you still have an issue you need to air, PM me.

[Raellus]

Olefin has successfully served out his 30-day ban and may now post on the forum again. Welcome back, Olefin.

Targan has successfully served his 30-day suspension of moderator status and is hereby reinstated as a moderator. Welcome back, Targan.

Let's all of us try to follow forum guidelines from here on out.

Viva la forum!