v2.2 Vehicle Damage

[M-Type]

Can anyone write a good example of damage against vehicles for the different types of weapons? Small Arms, Exploding Rounds, Penetrators, etc?

I read the rules in the book and nod, but it still is just beyond my grasp. I figure an example will help solidify it better. And I figure it's important to know, since my players have already blown up one vehicle with an M203 (it was empty and sitting there, so I just told them the cab was wrecked).

Thanks in advance!

[Legbreaker]

An M203 using the stock standard HEDP round has a Pen (Penetration) of 4C.
2D6 are rolled (in almost all cases for heavy weapons) and added to the Pen. In this example, lets say we roll a 7 for a total Pen result of 11.

Now lets say the target is a lightly armoured vehicle, lets call it a BTR-80, and assume the shot hit. We then roll on the hit location table (page 217) using 1D6 and looking at the vehicle column. If the attack was from the side, we'd add 1 to the roll.

In this case, lets say the roll was 3, which means a hit on the hull, and the shot was from the front, so the AV will be 3 (BTR-80 page 75, HF3). We then take the 3 points of armour from the penetration result of 11 for a final penetration of just 8.

We can then look at the table on either page 260 or 218 and see a final Pen of 8 will give 1 minor damage. We then roll 1D6 on the minor hull damage section of the vehicle damage table which has possible damage results of 1 crewmember, Loader, 2 Passengers, Radio, or Major hull. Lets say we roll a 4 and therefore the result is passengers. Being an APC, if there are passengers aboard, two of them are subjected to 1D6 number of hits, each doing 1D6 points of damage to random locations. If the passengers have dismounted, the GM has the option of the attack doing either no damage at all, or destroying cargo.

Therefore, as we can see from the above example, a 40mm HEDP isn't going to destroy even a lightly armoured vehicle very often, although there is always a chance (could roll a major result), but it will still penetrate, and will give the occupants a bad hair day.

Also, ANY penetrating shot will require the crew and any passengers to roll for panic and possibly jump out of the vehicle (Bail out, page 197).

[Cdnwolf]

Great example Leg but I think he wanted Ver 2.2 example....

[M-Type]

He actually did get it...unless all the pages spookily match.

But anyways, I can definitely follow that. The M203 I mentioned went into the cab and destroyed it, but the rest of the vehicle was fine. We'll chalk it up to luck and GM negligence

[Legbreaker]

The 2.0 and 2.2 vehicle rules are virtually the same thing. Really only a tweak here and there regarding vehicle stats, hit location tables, and radiological shielding.

[M-Type]

I tried the M203 vs Deuce and a Half with results exactly the same as your example. Then I decided to up the ante and try an Abrams vs BMP. For fun.

Heh.

It didn't end well for the BMP. 3 Major damage hits, Ammo, Ammo, Fuel. It's safe to say the crew DIDN'T make it either way.

I can only imagine the Abrams quickly ran out of fuel and was overrun :P

[Legbreaker]

Try an AT-4 or TOW or similar vs an Abrams and see what happens....
And remember that some Soviet vehicles carry missiles....

[M-Type]

I ran a quick 'scenario' with the same M1A1 (Fresh from victory) facing off against a T-80.

The M1A1 gunner crit-failed his roll, so the 'gun jammed'. The T-80 crew took this in stride.

It did not end well for the M1. Sadly.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth running the same exercise with both tanks in hull down positions. In other words any Hull hit is a miss (unless it's a turret hit first which is converted to hull damage on the table).
Something else to think about is requiring the vehicle commander to roll an Observation check before the vehicle can react to the enemy. A half blind commander (usually the only one with their head out and able to properly see the surroundings) is pretty much a death sentence for the vehicle.

Something else to consider is how hard it is for the commander (or other crew in a position to see) to spot infantry in cover/concealment. Although an anti-tank missile usually kicks up a hell of a backblast and is damn near impossible to avoid spotting, it usually only takes one hit to take out, or at least badly shake up the vehicle and it's crew. Added to that, AT teams usually work in pairs....

With regard to small arms against vehicles, it's almost impossible to do anything beyond a minor damage result to even an unarmoured vehicle, even if the more solid parts of the vehicle are missed (the AV1 listing on each softskin).

For HE type rounds of virtually any size, it's worth remembering that even if the shot misses the target, fragments may still hit and do have a Pen listing. Even it the shot hits, the target should still be subjected to fragments, possibly multiple fragments which could conceivably do more damage than the initial hit (for a smaller size round against an unarmoured vehicle at least).

[M-Type]

I'll definitely have to remember those details for the Tank game I was talking about on the other thread.

And after running some more similar tests with small arms, I'd agree with your results.

[James Langham]

Just bear in mind that in the Gulf, British and US tanks scored kills THROUGH the defensive berm. I suggest hull down should really just add to armour (probably a random amount due to the possible deflections, etc).

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's worth running the same exercise with both tanks in hull down positions. In other words any Hull hit is a miss (unless it's a turret hit first which is converted to hull damage on the table).
Something else to think about is requiring the vehicle commander to roll an Observation check before the vehicle can react to the enemy. A half blind commander (usually the only one with their head out and able to properly see the surroundings) is pretty much a death sentence for the vehicle.

Something else to consider is how hard it is for the commander (or other crew in a position to see) to spot infantry in cover/concealment. Although an anti-tank missile usually kicks up a hell of a backblast and is damn near impossible to avoid spotting, it usually only takes one hit to take out, or at least badly shake up the vehicle and it's crew. Added to that, AT teams usually work in pairs....

With regard to small arms against vehicles, it's almost impossible to do anything beyond a minor damage result to even an unarmoured vehicle, even if the more solid parts of the vehicle are missed (the AV1 listing on each softskin).

For HE type rounds of virtually any size, it's worth remembering that even if the shot misses the target, fragments may still hit and do have a Pen listing. Even it the shot hits, the target should still be subjected to fragments, possibly multiple fragments which could conceivably do more damage than the initial hit (for a smaller size round against an unarmoured vehicle at least).

[Legbreaker]

Very true, however for a first time GM of an unfamiliar game system, it might be best to call that an "advanced" option? Figuring out the AV equivalent could be a bit of a struggle to begin with.
Might be easier to simply assume the target is behind a sufficiently great amount of material to make the penetrator either not reach it's target, or loose so much energy in doing so that it is unable to penetrate the vehicle armour.

It also gives the players a greater reason to keep in cover as much as possible.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Very true, however for a first time GM of an unfamiliar game system, it might be best to call that an "advanced" option?

I seem to recall a handy table in the v1 boxed set multi-page charts and tables booklet that listed the protection values of a variety of materials based on volume. Does v2.2 have a similar table? If not, could the v1 table be converted?

[Legbreaker]

2.x does indeed, but like V1 it requires a little thought by the GM. For somebody still working though the basics, it's easier to just wing details like that, especially when you consider the "spaced" effect an obstacle will have on a HEAT type round or how a kinetic penetrator might be deflected.
My advice would be get comfortable with the other rules first, then add in details like these - it's not like the players will notice...

[M-Type]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

it's not like the players will notice...

Hopefully

[James Langham]

I agree it is an advanced option but we need to consider it for more advanced play as it is a known tactic (and also makes a nice bit of background text in a tactics article!).

Probably the simplest way to simulate the random effect is to multiply the cover armour value by the following amount using a 1D6 roll:

pentrator round (e.g APDS)
1: x 1
2: x 1
3: x 1
4: x 1.5
5: x 2
6: x 3

explosive round (e.g. HEAT)
1: x 1
2: x 1.5
3: x 2
4:x 2
5: x 3
6: x 4

Hopefully fairly quick and easy.

I use a similar system for over-pentration by small arms fire (treating a person as AV1).

[Legbreaker]

In my understanding, a HEAT round would be effectively "ruined" by having to pass through a significant amount (anything a tank might consider "cover") of earth, sandbags, stone, etc before impacting on the intended armoured target.
A pure AP round on the other hand might be able to cut through the obstacle relatively well.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by M-Type

I ran a quick 'scenario' with the same M1A1 (Fresh from victory) facing off against a T-80.

The M1A1 gunner crit-failed his roll, so the 'gun jammed'. The T-80 crew took this in stride.

It did not end well for the M1. Sadly.

Good. Let's also figure out a good system for ramming vehicles into each other, people, cows, buildings, etc.

The reason I picked your quote is that it reminded me of a situation the players manning an M1 got into during a duel with a T-80. The T-80 came out from behind a building, less then 20 meters away. Anyway, they ended up in this corkscrewing dance of death, getting closer and closer to each other somehow not able to hit each other (except for the TCs, who were both shot by PCs and NPCs who were not part of the tank crews). Finally, the PCs in the M1 ended up side on to the T-80 with its gun muzzle centimeters away from the turret front of the T-80, of course couldn't miss at that range, and blew a sabot into the turret, with the T-80's turret exploding.

We were using miniatures, which really helped.

Shouldn't the M1 have been damaged somewhat by that?

[M-Type]

I'd feel like being that close would lead to the M1 taking some damage.

[Legbreaker]

A heavily armoured vehicle such as a tank, even a WWII era one, is unlikely to be significantly damaged by their own shot even at that range. There's sure to be shrapnel flying about and some of the external stores may be blown off by the blast, but all in all, if the hatches are closed (I'm guessing the TC's body as still in the hatch in Pauls example?) the paintwork should be barely scratched.

[pmulcahy11b]

I remember thinking at the time that the driver of the M1 should probably had his head and upper body both shredded by shrap and been jellified by the blast, (an M1 sits higher than a T-80), and the rest of the crew have hearing damage, But after the "TOW incident," I kept my mouth shut...

[Legbreaker]

They were driving exposed at such close range with enemy infantry present? What madness is that!?

[pmulcahy11b]

It was madness, but mad fun. That was one weird firefight. Hairy.

I been toying for years to convert the driving rules in Car Wars and GURPS Autoduel, but I've never sat down and done the work.

I have so many ideas buzzing around in my head that would be big projects, but I've never put pen to paper on them. Like my idea for a San Antonio/South Texas module to be a more detailed version of Red Star Lone Star called
Remember the Alamo. Or a guidebook to Korea called Morning Calm.

It's really my medication's fault. Not enough waking hours. Hell, I slept most of the day, and I'm getting so sleepy writing this that I feel like I'm going curl up and go to sleep right now.