Nuclear Bombs - What was still around..

[Cdnwolf]

I might... key word is MIGHT.. have my group stumble upon a crashed B-52 bomber and in its bomb bay is one nuclear weapon. What weapons do you think were still around during TWL 2000 period? I am thinking they might have made some more B53 but am not sure.

The B53 was intended to be retired in the 1980s, but 50 units remained in the active stockpile until the deployment of the B61-11 in 1997. At that point the obsolete B53s were slated for immediate disassembly; however, the process of disassembling the units was greatly hampered by safety concerns as well as a lack of resources

[Matt Wiser]

OK, this is from unclassified sources, so keep that in mind. Most of the older weapons like the B-28 and B-43 were due for retirement in the 1990s, but one can assume that the weapons would've been kept in the inventory. The two main SAC gravity bombs were the B-61 (up to 500 KT) and the B-83 (1-2 MT). The B-53 was retained due to its massive hard-target kill capability, with a 9-10 MT yield meant for use against hardened Soviet command centers and submarine pens. Some may have been remanufactured from Titan-II Reentry Vehicles, as the warhead was essentially the same as the Titan's W-53.

Missiles due to come into the inventory in the 1990s were the AGM-131 SRAM-II (B-52, B-1, B-2) and a much larger buy of the AGM-129 ALCM (B-52 and B-1B) Both reportedly had the "dial-a-yield' feature that could be set in flight by the aircrew.

Tactical bombs for the F-15E/F-16/TORNADO (NATO) were the B-57 (due for replacement by the B-90 in the USN) depth/strike bomb, and tactical versions of the B-61, with yields ranging from 10 KT up to 340 KT. SRAM-T was in development for the F-15E with a 10 to 150 KT warhead. The RAF was seriously considering replacing its WE-177 gravity bombs with the SRAM-T when the events of 1989-91 took hold IOTL.

[mikeo80]

Another thought on this subject.

My little squad comes up on a MESS of aluminum, electronics, red squishy things (crew remains).

1) Would there be enough intact to identify this garbage pile as a B-52?
2) Would the G.I. Joes who found this pile, KNOW it was a B-52?
3) Would the squad know that THAT particular pile of trash is a nuke?
4) Is the nuke stable? Intact?

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

The Challenge Magazine mini-module Broken Arrow features the search for a downed USAF bomber in the Black Hills of South Dakota. I believe the nukes it was carrying were carried by cruise missiles. Do you have access to that Challenge Mag issue, Cdnwolf?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

Another thought on this subject.

My little squad comes up on a MESS of aluminum, electronics, red squishy things (crew remains).

1) Would there be enough intact to identify this garbage pile as a B-52?
2) Would the G.I. Joes who found this pile, KNOW it was a B-52?
3) Would the squad know that THAT particular pile of trash is a nuke?
4) Is the nuke stable? Intact?

My $0.02

Mike

There's bound to be identifiable parts here and there. Also, flight suits are fairly resilient (they're designed to be), the "red squishy things" would/should easily be identifiable as crew. It's also not outside the realm of possibility that some of the crew at least attempted to eject; there might be a seat/chute hanging from a tree...

[Olefin]

Would come down to how the B-52 came down. If you come down nose first like Flight 93 did then there wont be anything bigger than small bits. If you come down out of fuel in a belly landing attempt and screw it up (think hit a building and tear off a wing or the side of a hill or the plane tumbles) then you would have large pieces of very identifiable wreckage

or for that matter go down where the plane partially ends up in lake or river and all that is sticking out is the tail

[Graebarde]

Anyone ever seen a BUFF doing NAP flying? I have, up close and personal, 400 feet off the deck and a couple 100 yards away MAYBE. I could see the frikin left seater. They did it all the time I came to find out later, but the first encounter was awesome and scary since I did NOT hear the beast until it was past me. Any ways back on topic.

I'm sure there would be some distinguishing debrie that identifies the bird as a BUFF. I doubt there would be a punch out at 400 feet, but that's supposing the NAP insertion. As for the warhead being intact? Those things are pretty durably packaged for just that reason- nobody wants a crashed bird on their runway with a nuke on board, and during the cold war those birds generally were armed and ready when airborne. Another scary incident was passing Grand Forks AFB when they were having a scramble alert and the BUFFs were rolling out nose to tail belching black smoke trying to get airborne... no room, or not much anyways, for error there. One would be lifting off when the next was half way down to the lift off point. And half the time they never knew it was a drill until they were airborne and enroute to their way points.

I would think MAYBE the BUFF is crashed where there was little population and maybe early in the nuke exchange rather than in 2000. Hence there would not be red squishy, rather dried decompsing skeletal remains with dog tags and flight suits. This also assumes the wreckage did not burn, which is plausible.

[Snake Eyes]

Never seen one that low that wasn't landing, but when I was a kid back in the 80's I got to watch one refueling in-flight from above in a commercial jet that was overflying on an intercept course somewhere in the PacNW. Our pilot was a reservist and told us that might be a once-in-a-lifetime photo op for most of us, so I snapped a pic.

[Cdnwolf]

something like these... One is from a real crash in 1950?

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

Never seen one that low that wasn't landing, but when I was a kid back in the 80's I got to watch one refueling in-flight from above in a commercial jet that was overflying on an intercept course somewhere in the PacNW. Our pilot was a reservist and told us that might be a once-in-a-lifetime photo op for most of us, so I snapped a pic.

The first one I saw I thought it WAS going down. But when it didn't and after talking to the farmer I was scouting (I was a field scout for an ag consultant) told me that was normal. I was in the area once or twice a week and saw one on most of those days. They flew so many feet over sea level, with the altitude higher than any of the surrounding terrain and jinked around the turkey farms as the birds did NOT like the big birds.

The NDANG 'Happy Hooligans' use to practice interception of those birds too. Smokin' F4 after a BUFF.. they called it Buff hunting lol.

What was even more impressive than a BUFF was a BOne doing the same thing, at about twice the speed, just under the sound barrier. I saw only one of them as it streaked over where I was sitting eating lunch. I saw a dot in the distance growing rapidly, then WHOOOSH.. I wonder if a guy could get a Stinger off on it from time I saw it till it was gone blocked by the bluff.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

something like these... One is from a real crash in 1950?

That's about what it would be, parts scatterd and trees broken. The one on the right looks like a diorama (sp) ?

[mikeo80]

I guess that the most important issue is WHY the B-52 went down.

If the B-52 caught a SAM or AAM, there probably would only be ity bity pieces scatered from here to there.

If the B-52 had a mechanical failure, it is possible the pilots would attempt to bring the beast back to earth as best they could. (Visions of the Miracle on the Hudson are playing through my head as I type this. )

The pictures submitted above are an interesting thought. The second picture seems to be something on the order of a B-17 or a B-29. I base this deduction on the four engine layout.

I, personnally, have never seen a B-52 in real life. I have only seen pictures and movies. Just from that modest experience, the B-52 is a MONSTER machine!!!! Big Ugly Fat Fellow indeed!

My $0.02

Mike

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

I guess that the most important issue is WHY the B-52 went down.

If the B-52 caught a SAM or AAM, there probably would only be ity bity pieces scatered from here to there.
If the B-52 had a mechanical failure, it is possible the pilots would attempt to bring the beast back to earth as best they could. (Visions of the Miracle on the Hudson are playing through my head as I type this. )

The pictures submitted above are an interesting thought. The second picture seems to be something on the order of a B-17 or a B-29. I base this deduction on the four engine layout.

I, personnally, have never seen a B-52 in real life. I have only seen pictures and movies. Just from that modest experience, the B-52 is a MONSTER machine!!!! Big Ugly Fat Fellow indeed!

My $0.02

Mike

It depends on if the SAM scored a direct hit or the BUFF was battle damaged by a near hit. They are tough birds generally speaking, but a serious strike at low altitude would make recovery or 'safe' landing impossible, and depending on altitude wheter the crew could punch out.

The BUFF IS a monster. The wings have something like an EIGHT FOOT flex at the tips from sitting to flight. That said, a hit on a wing that snaps a wing, well she's going down hard.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

I guess that the most important issue is WHY the B-52 went down.

If the B-52 caught a SAM or AAM, there probably would only be ity bity pieces scatered from here to there.

There are cases of B52s being hit by SAMs over North Vietnam that survived. A B52G was struck by a Shrike ARM during Operation Desert Storm (the Shrike was fired at an Iraqi SAM site by an F4G doing SEAD for the cell of B52s, but homed in on the B52G's 20mm tail gun radar) and motored along just fine. The Shrike's framework and warhead are the same as the AIM-7 Sparrow, which is a honkin' big AAM.

I remember back during Operation Allied Force, the Usenet newsgroup rec.aviation.military was constantly spammed by Serbian nationalists who insisted NATO and by extension the USAF were losing dozens of aircraft a day, and that bombers (like the B52, B2 and B1) at high altitude that were struck by SAMs or AAMs simply (I think someone said) "were blown into millions of little pieces" - sorry, it doesn't work that way. Going all the way back to WWII, there's cases of bombers whose crews bailed out, and said bombers literally glided in and came to a gentle landing of their own accord. The Japanese and Germans both had a few operable B17s in their arsenal due to such strange happenings.

If the B-52 had a mechanical failure, it is possible the pilots would attempt to bring the beast back to earth as best they could. (Visions of the Miracle on the Hudson are playing through my head as I type this. )

Sully Sullenberger is one of my heroes but this B52 crew didn't fare too badly themselves. That's a BUFF without any vertical stab, coming in for a landing. Probably doing a lot of minor engine adjustments for vertical stabilization...

Here's the video link:

http://youtu.be/pjayDit2bHw

They're not A10s but they are absolutely resilient aircraft.

I think the best (coolest?) scenario the OP could do would be to have a crash-landed B52, maybe the remains of a couple of crewmen under a cairn nearby, with survivors long gone. As for the bombs themselves, depending on who survived they might or might not still have triggers still installed (which could be an adventure unto itself).

I, personnally, have never seen a B-52 in real life. I have only seen pictures and movies. Just from that modest experience, the B-52 is a MONSTER machine!!!! Big Ugly Fat Fellow indeed!

My $0.02

Mike

The B52 is about 15% bigger than a 707; If you've seen one up close, imagine that about 25 feet wider on each wing and about 30 feet longer. It is pretty huge. There's a -D on display at McCoy airfield here in Orlando you can walk up to, under and around (sadly it's sealed up entirely and you cannot go inside).

[bobcat]

you just gave me an idea for my game.

mean time while it is believable that a modern fighter knocked down might leave nothing more than beer can sized scrap(at the largest) those big ugly planes the air farce keeps trying to get rid of will leave big ugly pieces if not an intact fuselage to identify it by(they are also notorious for staying in the air after a hit that would render fighters into scrap).

but im just a ground pounder.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know what all the discussion is about. If PCs find a crashed B-52 it is pretty much contractually required to look something like the shot from the "Monkey Sampan" sequence in (or not in, technically) Apocalypse Now.

(At 4:24 or so if you follow the YouTube link, for those who don't fancy the footage or Jethro Tull's "Broadsword" -- though it's one of the most T2K songs ever if you get past the anachronistic parts.)

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't know what all the discussion is about. If PCs find a crashed B-52 it is pretty much contractually required to look something like the shot from the "Monkey Sampan" sequence in (or not in, technically) Apocalypse Now.

(At 4:24 or so if you follow the YouTube link, for those who don't fancy the footage or Jethro Tull's "Broadsword" -- though it's one of the most T2K songs ever if you get past the anachronistic parts.)

This scene...

[TrailerParkJawa]

What about a b-52 that broke up in flight for some reason? That gives PCs the chance to simply find a bomb that plowed itself into a field.

On a side note, I once had a BUFF fly directly over me when I was in middle school. It was so low and really out of place as this was Not under a normal flight path. At the time Alameda NAS was still open so I think it was headed that way.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by TrailerParkJawa

What about a b-52 that broke up in flight for some reason? That gives PCs the chance to simply find a bomb that plowed itself into a field.

On a side note, I once had a BUFF fly directly over me when I was in middle school. It was so low and really out of place as this was Not under a normal flight path. At the time Alameda NAS was still open so I think it was headed that way.

Problem: accidentally dropped nuclear weapons have a tendency to just disappear. Now, granted, that was in the water (and then, mud) off Tybee Island, but if the bomb hits anything harder the casing and associated mechanisms are going to (assuming the bomb isn't armed, and it isn't, because that's the premise of the scenario) split up and scatter. While a plutonium core (and any other fissionables) would be plenty scary, once the trigger and other parts are smashed and scattered, it's less a nuclear bomb and more of a dirty bomb precursor.

I think a good way to handle this might be: SAM goes off close enough to the bomber to kill or mortally injure the crew. Regardless, they're dead. Pilot says "shit, if I can just get her down I can treat myself". His last act is to belly flop the plane, perishes almost immediately after, plane skids, parts scatter, including the fuselage area holding the bomb bay. Characters find it, the end. Or, rather, beginning.

If they wanna get all CSI: Twilight2000 and look for the cockpit section, it's a hundred meters further along in the woods, with the badly dessicated bodies of the crew, all showing signs of trauma (puncture wounds through their flight suits as the missile warhead fragments did their stuff).

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

This scene...

Yeah, that one.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Sully Sullenberger is one of my heroes but this B52 crew didn't fare too badly themselves. That's a BUFF without any vertical stab, coming in for a landing. Probably doing a lot of minor engine adjustments for vertical stabilization...

Literally coming in on a wing and a prayer I would say.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Literally coming in on a wing and a prayer I would say.

Knowing the BUFF, that bird is probably still in service....

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Knowing the BUFF, that bird is probably still in service....

Close:

B-52H (61-023), configured at the time as a testbed to investigate structural failures, still flying after its vertical stabilizer sheared off in severe turbulence on 10 January 1964. The aircraft eventually landed safely and remained in service until 2008.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Close:

Damn.


I thought I was being funny!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Finally (lest this go too far off topic), the B52 may stay in service past 2045:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-57...20&tag=nl.e703

[bobcat]

they'll be flying B52's at the final battle of the appocalypse. hell a bomber that badass deserves its own hanger in valhalla.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by bobcat

they'll be flying B52's at the final battle of the appocalypse. hell a bomber that badass deserves its own hanger in valhalla.

But you know, there's a famous quote about the C130:

The last B52 crew to dispose of the last B52 at the AMARC will fly out of D-M on a C130!

[Tegyrius]

I've heard the same thing said about the B-2 and the B-52.

- C.