Hunting and eating wild food in T2k (or any post-apocalyptic setting)

[Schone23666]

So, I was watching snippets of "Cooking in the Danger Zone" that was shown on the BBC, specifically the episode where the host went to the infamous Zone of Exclusion in the Ukraine, the site of the Chernobyl disaster. They were talking about the various levels of radiation that still existed in areas, with some of the higher level areas still in places like the Red Forest. They also commented about how nature, in particular wildlife and native vegetation had reclaimed much of the area.

My question would be, let's assume in a T2k or similar setting that you're traveling/wandering near areas that were hit at some point in the war by tactical nukes. It's been several years since the nukes fell, and wildlife has returned to the area. However, you now have residual radiation in areas, and the animals are likely being exposed to it as they're eating vegetation that has been growing in the area and have absorbed the radiated particles.

We'll assume you've got geiger counters, or at least have a general idea of areas to avoid that were exposed to lethal doses of fallout. However, animals tend to wander unlike vegetation, so how do you protect yourself knowing that deer, wild boar, etc. that you shot or trapped may potentially be contaminated?

Also, refugees will likely be more desperate and will eat whatever food they can scrounge, including food grown in areas that may still have hazardous levels of radiation in the soil.

Also, it's not just radiation to worry about. Lingering residue from chemical or bio weapons may have contaminated certain water supplies or soil as well, again affecting produce and anything eating it. Granted most of it will disperse and break down over time when exposed to weather (theoretically anyway), but there may still be nasty side-effects.

So...any thoughts?

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

So, I was watching snippets of "Cooking in the Danger Zone" that was shown on the BBC, specifically the episode where the host went to the infamous Zone of Exclusion in the Ukraine, the site of the Chernobyl disaster. They were talking about the various levels of radiation that still existed in areas, with some of the higher level areas still in places like the Red Forest. They also commented about how nature, in particular wildlife and native vegetation had reclaimed much of the area.

My question would be, let's assume in a T2k or similar setting that you're traveling/wandering near areas that were hit at some point in the war by tactical nukes. It's been several years since the nukes fell, and wildlife has returned to the area. However, you now have residual radiation in areas, and the animals are likely being exposed to it as they're eating vegetation that has been growing in the area and have absorbed the radiated particles.

We'll assume you've got geiger counters, or at least have a general idea of areas to avoid that were exposed to lethal doses of fallout. However, animals tend to wander unlike vegetation, so how do you protect yourself knowing that deer, wild boar, etc. that you shot or trapped may potentially be contaminated?

Also, refugees will likely be more desperate and will eat whatever food they can scrounge, including food grown in areas that may still have hazardous levels of radiation in the soil.

Also, it's not just radiation to worry about. Lingering residue from chemical or bio weapons may have contaminated certain water supplies or soil as well, again affecting produce and anything eating it. Granted most of it will disperse and break down over time when exposed to weather (theoretically anyway), but there may still be nasty side-effects.

So...any thoughts?

Great topic. Indeed weather breaks down radiation. Also, chemical weapons do not last very long exposed to weather. Most CBRN experts will tell you that bleach kicks the snot out of most biological weapons because they are based on bacteria and dish detergent (yes, dawn) kills chemical agents because they are made of oils and dawn takes grease, out of your way.... on a more serious note, going all the way down to battalion level, units have built in decontamination units and cold war soldiers trained heavily in NBC. I'd think that by 2000, there wouldn't be much left for effects from B and C.

I actually would not think there would be much left for wildlife. As you already pointed out, they tend to wander, and most would die. Also, as you have pointed out, refugees and hunters would kill everything in sight. I would not reccomend eating meat from animals that were even grazing on radiated plants.

Radiation does not kill plants unless they are in seed form. However, plants do pass the radiation into their leaves and fruit. Two exceptions to this are corn and sunflowers. Corn has some funky side parts to how it works, but sunflowers actually eat up radiation. Once the radiation is cleaned up by weather, time, or moved, then plants growing in clean soil are safe to eat.

In the past, I was a CBRNE recon platoon leader, but I was not school trained. If you are looking at modern day survival, I'd do more research. Don't take what I say as complete 100% accurate, its just my basic knowldege

[Schone23666]

Thanks. I imagine by 2000, as you said any effect from bio and chemical weapons will have mostly dispersed under breakdown from the sun, wind, weather, rain and other effects over time. That's pretty much the same story our NBC instructors told us when we practiced MOPP in the Air Force.

UNLESS, and I stress unless, perhaps your PC's happen to run into remnants of a military unit that still has some bio or chemical weapons that didn't get fired off, and god forbid, the weapons may not have been properly maintained and a few of them may be leaking? Or, the PC's find or stumble upon an abandoned munitions depot that still has several chemical weapons stacked somewhere, that may again be leaking or damaged. Unless I'm wrong, some bio and chemical weapons require a bit more careful maintenance than your typical munitions, but again I could be wrong.

Now, radiation on the other hand....yeah, that's a bit of a different story. I'd expect the amount of nasty radiation still around in areas would be dependent on so many different factors. But radiation's nasty regardless, and it doesn't just go away when you're exposed to it after a while, it accumulates.

My guess is if what you say is true, corn and sunflowers would be some /ideal crops to plant in areas that might still have traces of radiation. Ideally, of course. The reality would be whatever plant seeds are at hand and if the climate and soil is suitable enough.

And of course, again, when you have starving soldiers and refugees basically looking for ANY food to eat, they're likely not going to be picky and grab what they can find, and worry about potential sickness from radiation buildup later. My question though, as silly as it may sound, if animals do eat vegetation that's taken up the rad particles into their systems, wouldn't that still be detectable? If so I could see a hunter perhaps wanting to use a geiger counter to check an animal after he's trapped or shot it, assuming he had one.

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Thanks. I imagine by 2000, as you said any effect from bio and chemical weapons will have mostly dispersed under breakdown from the sun, wind, weather, rain and other effects over time. That's pretty much the same story our NBC instructors told us when we practiced MOPP in the Air Force.

UNLESS, and I stress unless, perhaps your PC's happen to run into remnants of a military unit that still has some bio or chemical weapons that didn't get fired off, and god forbid, the weapons may not have been properly maintained and a few of them may be leaking? Or, the PC's find or stumble upon an abandoned munitions depot that still has several chemical weapons stacked somewhere, that may again be leaking or damaged. Unless I'm wrong, some bio and chemical weapons require a bit more careful maintenance than your typical munitions, but again I could be wrong.

Now, radiation on the other hand....yeah, that's a bit of a different story. I'd expect the amount of nasty radiation still around in areas would be dependent on so many different factors. But radiation's nasty regardless, and it doesn't just go away when you're exposed to it after a while, it accumulates.

My guess is if what you say is true, corn and sunflowers would be some /ideal crops to plant in areas that might still have traces of radiation. Ideally, of course. The reality would be whatever plant seeds are at hand and if the climate and soil is suitable enough.

And of course, again, when you have starving soldiers and refugees basically looking for ANY food to eat, they're likely not going to be picky and grab what they can find, and worry about potential sickness from radiation buildup later. My question though, as silly as it may sound, if animals do eat vegetation that's taken up the rad particles into their systems, wouldn't that still be detectable? If so I could see a hunter perhaps wanting to use a geiger counter to check an animal after he's trapped or shot it, assuming he had one.

The answer to your question is yes. If the animals eat radiated food, then they are indeed contaiminated as their meat isn't going to process it clean. I'm afraid that I have no idea if a gieger counter is going to catch that on them or not. I'm sure that most starving people wouldn't care or consider that tho.

[HorseSoldier]

I suspect that the short version of the story is that most people don't have the means to identify contaminated meat and don't have the luxury of avoiding it in the T2K world. Even worse, in some cases places that were avoided in '98 and '99 due to radiation may be the best bets for hunting and foraging by 2000, as other areas have been hunted and harvested out.

On the plus side, the resulting uptick in cancers and such is probably not too noticeable, due to overall life expectancy plummeting down from 20th century levels and most people dying from disease (epidemic or just relating to the individual effects of chronic malnutrition), injuries or conditions made lethal by the collapse of the medical system, or violence well before cancer from fallout and background radiation gets them.

[Schone23666]

You know, that said I'd wonder how safe some of the wildlife in parts of real-world Russia are for eating, considering the number of contaminated sites and improperly disposed radioactive waste lingering about...

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I suspect that the short version of the story is that most people don't have the means to identify contaminated meat and don't have the luxury of avoiding it in the T2K world. Even worse, in some cases places that were avoided in '98 and '99 due to radiation may be the best bets for hunting and foraging by 2000, as other areas have been hunted and harvested out.

On the plus side, the resulting uptick in cancers and such is probably not too noticeable, due to overall life expectancy plummeting down from 20th century levels and most people dying from disease (epidemic or just relating to the individual effects of chronic malnutrition), injuries or conditions made lethal by the collapse of the medical system, or violence well before cancer from fallout and background radiation gets them.

Those are some excellent points you raised HorseSoldier. As they noted on "Cooking in the Danger Zone", wildlife and wild growing plants had taken over most areas of the Zone of Exclusion due to the general absence of most humans. They noticed several wild boar grazing nearby, but were warned not to kill and eat them as they tend to eat the mushrooms growing in the area, and the mushrooms apparently soak up the rads in the soil like most plants. However, they ran into a few locals (not many, mind you, it's called the Zone of Exclusion for a reason) who still lived in the area, and were eating the wild boars as they came across them. Not sure I'd want to be taking that chance if given the luxury.

[HorseSoldier]

You know, that said I'd wonder how safe some of the wildlife in parts of real-world Russia are for eating, considering the number of contaminated sites and improperly disposed radioactive waste lingering about...

As well as industrial waste and pollution, etc. Ecocide in the USSR by Murray Feshback is a really disturbing read (and can be had used on Amazon for $0.01 + shipping) about conditions in that country that I wish I'd read before I last ran a T2K campaign, as what it has to say about conditions in the USSR would also apply to conditions in the Warsaw Pact nations. Given the choice between camping overnight in a two year old nuclear strike crater or in an Eastern European industrial site, you'd probably be better off in the crater.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

As well as industrial waste and pollution, etc. Ecocide in the USSR by Murray Feshback is a really disturbing read (and can be had used on Amazon for $0.01 + shipping) about conditions in that country that I wish I'd read before I last ran a T2K campaign, as what it has to say about conditions in the USSR would also apply to conditions in the Warsaw Pact nations. Given the choice between camping overnight in a two year old nuclear strike crater or in an Eastern European industrial site, you'd probably be better off in the crater.

Ugh, the pollution issues I'd seen and heard (I visited Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary several times when I was stationed over Germany) over in Russia and Eastern Europe makes New Jersey look like Hawaii in comparison.

When I was stationed at Spangdahlem AFB, there was a girl there I knew who got sent as part of a team to survey an ex-Soviet airbase in the former Eastern Bloc for possible use by NATO forces. Not sure in which country specifically but I know it was one of the three aforementioned countries I'd visited. Anyway...

The stories she had to tell were horrific. Broken sewage lines spilling crap everywhere, mud coming out of water faucets, improperly stowed leftover toxic waste that had spilled, the buildings were cracked and rapidly decaying, etc...and of course, the rats. When night came, hordes of rats descended on the base. The team had to put up tents since none of the buildings were considered safe or suitable for habitation, and the rats would descend on the tents. She had brought along some extra bags of food, and upon inspection the rats had torn into them and gobbled everything they could.

I'm pretty sure her recommendation was along the lines of, do a full chemical/toxic waste cleanup, and bulldoze all the infrastructure and start fresh. Other than the runway, anyway, and I suspect it hadn't been too well maintained either if what I've seen about Soviet airfield maintenance is true.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

On a somewhat related note, there was a Soviet era film called 'Stalker' by Andrey Tarkovskiy that had some scenes filmed in an abandoned industrial plant in I think Lithuania.
Apparently several members of the cast & crew developed cancers later in life that, it has been claimed, were caused by exposure to chemical contamination at the plant.

As part of the film trivia section at IMDB, there's the following piece: -
"The Zone of the film was inspired by a nuclear accident that took place near Chelyabinsk in 1957. Several hundred square kilometers were polluted by fallout and abandoned; of course there was no official mention of this forbidden zone at the time."


I'm at work and the work network blocks popups so I can't use most of the reply menu here, so... here's the IMDB link for Stalker
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079944/

[Graebarde]

I'm definately going to do some more research on this. I find it difficult to beleive wildlife are any less apt to show signs of radiation poison than humans. Yes they can accumulate the dose, but it is the damage the accumulation causes that shows up. If the animal appears healthy then kill it. Check the liver and organs for signs since they are the body filters. I suggest NOT eating the organs or bone marrow if there is ANY doubt, and bleed the animal well. The muscles are not the area of radiation buildup from ingestion. But as I said, I need to do more reserarch. I found the corn/sunflower information interesting. Where did that information come from if I might ask (looking for a place to start)

[HorseSoldier]

I think there is some research out there about wildlife rebound on some of the islands in the Pacific where nuke tests occurred. My understanding is that rats rebounded fast, and were having low rates of gross abnormalities within a few generations, while the islands were still deemed way too hot for a sustained human presence. I'm not sure on the exact chronology, but it is possible that by 2000 the same would be true for fast breeding small game. Two years and change from the nukes, bigger and slower breeding animals would likely be having more lingering issues.

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

I found the corn/sunflower information interesting. Where did that information come from if I might ask (looking for a place to start)

I cannot remember where I found the information on corn. I believe that all plants pass radiation taken from the ground onto their fruit, however corn does not, making it safe to eat.

Sunflowers were used in the Ukraine and Japan after nuclear disasters. There are articles out there stating that the sunflower experiment failed. I believe they are incorrect. Sunflowers just aren't magic plants and it takes a lot and years to get results, as opposed to just scrapping away all the soil. I believe that sunflowers actually feast on some of the elements and metals that cause radiation. You will have to good more to see I guess.

[headquarters]

I have seen a documentary on this area.

A scientist living in the area had a garden from which he produced various crops to measure the radiation build up. This varied from vegetable to vegetable. He measured the food taking samples which he analyzed. I believe initial testing was done by hand held geiger counter / radiation meter.

As for wildlife, initially the number of specimens fell drastically. After a relatively short time - 2-3 years numbers were increasing with most species. After 5 - 10 years most species were abundant compared to non radiated but inhabitated tracts of land of equal size and overall lay out.

Scientists still determined that mortality rates were higher in the radiated area, but so were production rates to the tune that Tsjernobyl had abundant wildlife.

Caveat some species did not thrive - I cant remember which right now.

There were inconclusive signs that some species were evolving and gaining higher radiation tolerances - significantly in birds. But opinions varied.

Does someone have hard facts on levels of radiation i n food considered safe for human consumption? I know for a fact that tolerances in our country are stated with a wide safety margin