Armored Gun System

[Olefin]

FYI - saw three AGS being brought out of storage - looks like we may have people interested in them again - got to get up close and personal and even after being stored for most of the last 17 years they still look ready to fight.

[Targan]

When I get home from work I might go looking for the old thread on the AGS and roll this thread into it.

So the ones you've seen recently, none of them were the one we've seen a photo of that's been left out in the open to rust all these years? Great to hear that there are examples out there in good condition. I know I'm being a bit cheeky, but any chance you could sneak a photo or two of the ones you've recently seen? I'm one of many AGS fanboys around here.

[Olefin]

Will see what I can do - from what I saw there were some missing rubber on the roadwheels (but that can be corrected) - otherwise they all started and ran around the track with no issues. Look to be in very good shape considering they have been sitting under a tarp for so long. Will see if I can get any pics of them.

Will keep you appraised of any info I find on if this time we finally manage to get them sold (and even better if we get a nice order for a lot more of them too)

[Matt Wiser]

I second Targan's view: on my desktop I still have the M8 AGS stuff from TR's site (RIP...) Too bad Slick Willie's administration canceled the program....

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'm one of many AGS fanboys around here.

I think AGS fanboys are outnumbered by the LAV-75 fanboys.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

I think AGS fanboys are outnumbered by the LAV-75 fanboys.

Amen to that.

[Matt Wiser]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

I think AGS fanboys are outnumbered by the LAV-75 fanboys.

Unfortunately. But I'd rather have an M-8 AGS over a LAV-75. Level III Armor and a 105-mm with DU Silver Bullets (as long as they're available) beats a 75-mm anytime to kill tanks. And if you're shipping M-8s with Level III Armor to replace tank losses......

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Unfortunately. But I'd rather have an M-8 AGS over a LAV-75. Level III Armor and a 105-mm with DU Silver Bullets (as long as they're available) beats a 75-mm anytime to kill tanks. And if you're shipping M-8s with Level III Armor to replace tank losses......

And that's why we created the M20 Ridgway variant.

[Sith]

I did a little digging and found some pics I have. My masters thesis was on the AGS, and had access to all the archived Army AGS files from the program. Some of these pics may have been on the internet, but these in particular I scanned from the original photos.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Sith

I did my Masters Thesis on the AGS, and had access to all the archived Army AGS files from the program.

I think part of my brain just exploded. Where were you when we were having the big M-8 vs LAV 75 discussions! Is your thesis available for public viewing?

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Targan

I think part of my brain just exploded. Where were you when we were having the big M-8 vs LAV 75 discussions! Is your thesis available for public viewing?

Part of it is online through Google Books. Depending on when you pull it up you might see different sections. They want you to pay for the full copy.

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=80zBfzfVrywC

While I focus a lot on the history of the AGS, keep in mind that this has a lot to do with politics - the point of the thesis was to prove political priorities, not so much the history of the AGS. Know your audience - my thesis chair was a foreign policy historian.

I always wanted to do a follow-up work strictly on the AGS (as I still have access to a lot of the primary source material). Real life happened and I have family and work commitments that come first.

As far as the AGS vs. the LAV 75 thread... See the above statement. It always seemed as if the topic came up when I was surging at work (which happens more than I would like). I just didn't have the time.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Some excellent photos there Sith, thanks for posting them. They really illustrate well the add-on armour system.

[Sith]

Here are some glamour shots that I scanned.

[Matt Wiser]

Those pics are why I'd rather have the M-8 over the LAV-25 or any variant thereof. Level III armor, and a proven tank-killing gun, with a silver bullet DU round. I'd rather face a T-72 in one of those than a LAV.

[Sith]

Olefin - I know you may be restricted on what you can and can't say, but just kind of wondering if anyone came to look at the AGSs?

[Olefin]

From what I was told they were being prepped for the Airborne to look at them again and "an undisclosed foreign customer"

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Hell yeah. That's great news. When you need a tank you need a tank. The AGS is a pretty cool ride to be sure but it's not a tank!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Also if I had to guess I'd say Thailand or maybe even Taiwan as the customer (note, Olefin, I'm not trying to pry an answer out of you).

[boogiedowndonovan]

Wow Sith, good stuff, quit being a lurker and educate us on the M8 AGS.

In regards to there being more LAV-75 fanboys vs. M8 AGS fanboys, I think it may be related to the popularity of V1/V2 vs. V2.2. If memory stands correct, LAV 75 is available in two editions of T2k (V1 and V2.0) where as M8 AGS is only available in 2.2. From what I recall of the surveys taken here on this board V1 and V2 are a lot more popular than 2.2.

As far as foreign users, Taiwan was interested. What about Turkey? I found this youtube vid dubbed in Turkish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yqxr3tqtog

The comments of the youtube vid note:

"Late in 1997, FNSS Defense Systems of Turkey and United Defense LP, teamed to offer the M8 AGS to the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC).

In September 1997, the second of the six prototype M8 AGS built with the highest protection Level III was demonstrated in Turkey during which it undertook firepower and mobility demonstrations for the TLFC."

Cold War Turkish Army was badly outgunned in the armor department, perhaps they would purchase some M8 AGS in the T2k timeline.

Maybe in RL, with a civil war on their eastern border as well as Kurdish militants, Turkey decided to upgrade their armor?

[pmulcahy11b]

The M-8 might make a good addition for Armored Division Scout units.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

In regards to there being more LAV-75 fanboys vs. M8 AGS fanboys, I think it may be related to the popularity of V1/V2 vs. V2.2. If memory stands correct, LAV 75 is available in two editions of T2k (V1 and V2.0) where as M8 AGS is only available in 2.2. From what I recall of the surveys taken here on this board V1 and V2 are a lot more popular than 2.2.

You've got me pegged.

Thanks in large part to this thread, the M8's growing on me a little bit- I have no beef with it for what it is. For me, it's more a matter of principle. The LAV-75 was in the v1.0 U.S.V.G. that I bought as an 11-year-old so it's burned into my imagination and inextricably linked with T2K; I didn't associate the M8 with T2K until I saw it in the v2.2 BYB about seven years ago. I only acquired the v2.2 rules because that's what the GM for my first T2K game was using and they turned out easier for me to decipher so I use them for my own PbP now- the v1.0 is what I base my T2KU on.

I will stop polluting this thread with LAV-75 fanboy love now.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

Cold War Turkish Army was badly outgunned in the armor department, perhaps they would purchase some M8 AGS in the T2k timeline.

I like this, with the caveat that license-built hardware appeals to me more than something purchased outright. It allows more of a logistics base to be built up in odd locations, and it increases the opportunity for the local plant to design its own variants on the base chassis.

- C.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I like this, with the caveat that license-built hardware appeals to me more than something purchased outright. It allows more of a logistics base to be built up in odd locations, and it increases the opportunity for the local plant to design its own variants on the base chassis.

As I said in post #68 of the thread LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS:

Originally Posted by Targan

The suspension and track system contains elements from the M113A3, the M2 Bradley and some M8-specific components. The hydromechanical transmission is from the Bradley but the engine, the 6V-92TA 6 cylinder Detroit Diesel, has 65% parts commonality with the 8V-92TA 8 cylinder Detroit Diesel used in the M977 HEMTT truck. The Cadillac Gage Stingray and Stingray II light tanks actually use the M977 HEMTT's 8V-92TA engine as well.

So if Turkey was at any point building M113s, M2 Bradleys and/or 8V-92TA diesel engines under licence, it makes the scenario of building M8s under licence that much more plausible.

[Targan]

Also, any opinions for or against the idea of merging the Armored Gun System, *another* US light tank for T2k? and LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS threads?

[James1978]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

Cold War Turkish Army was badly outgunned in the armor department, perhaps they would purchase some M8 AGS in the T2k timeline.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the V2 NATO Vehicle Guide section on TOEs in the back mention Turkish cavalry units equipped with Stingray light tanks?

[Sith]

The AGS was designed to be built on the Bradley production line to save money. During wartime the US government would want nothing but Bradleys rolling out of those doors. Any foreign orders would have to be filled before the US joined the fray.

The AGS was due to start LRIP in 1996, if I remember correctly. Something to think about if the Turkish are to set up their own factory.

[robert.munsey]

Yes that was correct. The LRIP was suppose to start in 1996 through 1997 with the first 28 vehicles. The full rate production was supposed to start after 1998 time frame.

I worked on the AGS, as part of a detail of 19K tankers that were tasked to conduct the same evaluation of crewman skills as the 19D in the 3-73rd. I worked for SFC Wagner from the project office after wards reviewing the manuals and the first POI. Then the Army sent me to Korea, which I put in for and I was suppose to go to MG school, then Jump Master enroute back to the battalion. All of that never materialized except for MG school enroute to Hood.

There are two things that burn me up about the project; one it was ready and met or exceeded most of the requirements. Two that Mike Sparks guy tossing the 'Buford' name around. It was never called the Buford at all and was not suppose to have a name. I remember the discussion in the office and the LTC in charge said it was not to have a name.


***Break***
Sith, Could you contact me offlist, there are some questions I want to ask you.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by robert.munsey

Sith, Could you contact me offlist, there are some questions I want to ask you.

IM Sent