System advice. Which do you use?

[Michael Lewis]

What rpg system do you use for a post-apocalyptic style game such as Twilight 2000 and why?

A little history:

I've had the original Twilight 2000 rules since it first came out. I've read some criticisms about automatic fire rules and the vehicle combat being too complex. I discovered 2013 and loved the count down turn system. We tried to play a session or two but no one enjoyed the complexities and it seemed like you needed a detailed map for every combat.
I found Gun Master, which is based on Harnmaster with it's percentage base and no H.P system. I read up on Harnmaster III then Gun Master. There seems very little support for it so I don't think it would be worth continuing it.

That is my quandary. A good system that allows for tactical play but is not so difficult to teach to newbie players.

Michael

[Targan]

Which stage of the T2013 rules were you using? Stages 1, 2 and 3 go from pretty simple to quite complex. If T2013 was too complicated for your players' liking there was no way they would've liked Gunmaster anyway, that's about as complex as it gets.

[Michael Lewis]

Well, I guess that's good to know.

[kcdusk]

I loved V1.0 back in the day. I loved the tone and feel that it created, and i really liked the vehicle damage rules. I dont know if i ever got the single shot or burst fire rules correct though.

I never played V2.0. V2.2 was already out before i came across it and i have never opened it.

V2.2 is excellent. It has 98% of the feel of V1.0, the single shot and burst rules are much better (though i still hate the burst rules in V2.2). The vehicle rules are simplified, but are maybe 95% as good as V1.0. So all up V2.2 keeps all the good bits, and improves some of the bad ones of V1.0, and i think V2.2 is the best set of T2K rules. I have not seen/played 2013 (sorry, i cant remember its actual name!).

I play V2.2 most of the time, with house rules that fix the parts i think are broken.

Another set of rules i really like, is the James Bond rules set. I like the way a single roll to perform any task, results in a miss, or any of 4 different kinds of success. Just a great system in terms of difficulty levels and a single roll resulting in any of 5 results. The chase/pursuit rules are also the best i have seen. I really like the James Bond rules, at the same time i dont think they transfer that well to T2K. Hmmm, what i mean is the rules are great, but the weapons are slighted to favour pistols, so the whole weapon system would need to be stat-ed out which would be too much work.

I dont mind my house rules for V2.2 or tinkering with them. But oddly, i dont have any house rules for James Bond, i like the rules just the way they are.

[cavtroop]

I'm a big fan of the Twilight:2013 rules myself. just with I could find a group to play with

I also love the 1st edition rules - never got into 2nd edition at all, so can't speak to them.

[Adm.Lee]

I loved v1 way back when, but I loved v2 even more once I got good with it. I never owned v2.2, but have the v2.1 that came in the GMs screen, and occasionally borrowed a player's v2.2 book.

Anymore, I have been experimenting with mixing them up-- primarily v1's initiative/hesitation rule into v2.1 games.

I've recently bought Mongoose Traveller, but not done much with it. I like its combat rules in theory, but have not put them to a good test yet.

I've gotten into Savage Worlds pretty heavily for other action-games-with-guns, I would like to try something modern or Twilight-ish with that batch of rules, too.

[M-Type]

I'm still 'new' to Twilight: 2000, but I started with v1, so I've staked my claim that way. I've played a bit of Savage Worlds, and I think it could definitely work for this king of setting/story.

Another system I've been itching to try is FLOW, from the official STALKER game (and I'm talking Roadside Picnic, not the video games). It's diceless, and is based on utilizing character skill and common sense to convince the GM that your idea will work, or maybe work half-way, etc etc. Character creation is also easy, and you can probably shoe-horn some stuff in for radiation and the like if you want to go full T2k.

I bought it last year during a sale, but have not had a chance to run it.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by M-Type

Another system I've been itching to try is FLOW, from the official STALKER game (and I'm talking Roadside Picnic, not the video games). It's diceless, and is based on utilizing character skill and common sense to convince the GM that your idea will work, or maybe work half-way, etc etc. Character creation is also easy, and you can probably shoe-horn some stuff in for radiation and the like if you want to go full T2k

That sounds interesting. I kind of like the idea, but I see some potential problems with such a system as well. I imagine you'd need a fairly intelligent and mature group for it to work, otherwise, as GM, you'd probably spend a lot of time arguing about the plausibility of various proposals. Also, as the ultimate arbiter, the GM could come across as a bit of a tyrant. In most systems, the objectivity of a die-roll helps level the playing field just a bit.

I use v2.2 only because that's the first system I actually played with. I started my relationship with T2K with the original box set (v1) rules but the first time I ever got to play T2K was a PbP (thanks Kcdusk) and the GM was using v2.2. I bought it so that I could build a PC and ended up sticking with it when I started by own PbP. It's not perfect, but it seems to work OK, and I don't really have the free time or the funds to invest them in a new system.

[Cdnwolf]

I have used V1 and V2.2 and played TWL2013 - The only problem I had with V2.2 was the extra dice rolling it sometimes it involved when using the burst rules. I liked TWL2013 but hated the background and thought if they made an effort to make it more like TWL2000.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

I have used V1 and V2.2 and played TWL2013 - The only problem I had with V2.2 was the extra dice rolling it sometimes it involved when using the burst rules. I liked TWL2013 but hated the background and thought if they made an effort to make it more like TWL2000.

Nothing in that rules set is stopping you from using it with the v1, v2, or v2.2 timeline.

- C.

[M-Type]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That sounds interesting. I kind of like the idea, but I see some potential problems with such a system as well. I imagine you'd need a fairly intelligent and mature group for it to work, otherwise, as GM, you'd probably spend a lot of time arguing about the plausibility of various proposals. Also, as the ultimate arbiter, the GM could come across as a bit of a tyrant. In most systems, the objectivity of a die-roll helps level the playing field just a bit.

Yeah, a bad group can ruin things. I also might be over-simplifying it, since I read it almost a year ago!

Another system that is getting a lot of praise is FATE Core, which I believe (don't quote me) can be picked up for free. The system can be used for any sort of setting/theme. It's definitely based more around story than making sure you've got enough 5.56 for another firefight though, so it may not be good for the logistically-minded. Which, I confess, is not me.

EDIT: Looked it up, and FATE Core is on a PWYW (Pay What You Want) basis.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Nothing in that rules set is stopping you from using it with the v1, v2, or v2.2 timeline.

- C.

Precisely. If I were ever able to get a game together, this is what I'd probably do - not that I dislike the background that came with 2013 (it's not nearly as bad as the reputation it has around here, I kinda like it for the most part), but I simply have a huge soft spot for the v1 timeline/cold war.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

Precisely. If I were ever able to get a game together, this is what I'd probably do - not that I dislike the background that came with 2013 (it's not nearly as bad as the reputation it has around here, I kinda like it for the most part), but I simply have a huge soft spot for the v1 timeline/cold war.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Cdnwolf]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Nothing in that rules set is stopping you from using it with the v1, v2, or v2.2 timeline.

- C.

LOLOL as if I had the time to do that lol.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

LOLOL as if I had the time to do that lol.

I am interested in hearing exactly what conversion work you feel is necessary to make the 2013 rules work for the older settings.

(Other than vehicle stats, which I might be persuaded to do on request and in low volumes.)

- C.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

The only problem I had with V2.2 was the extra dice rolling it sometimes it involved when using the burst rules.

My groups considered that fun, since we usually have scads of d20 lying around. The extreme was a kid who had maxed out a lot of things, and was able to roll 42d20 when holding down the trigger on a SAW. He had 21 dice, and shuffled them twice through a dice tower.

[Michael Lewis]

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like everybody sticks to GDW or TW2013.

I've started rereading TW2013 again.

[alexei]

I use Twilight:2013 with Stage III rules. I like the flow of advanced combat timing.

I like the original v1 timeline and skill improvement rules. I like the encounter rules from v2.

I ran a campaign using the v1 timeline with Tw2013 rules a few years ago, and it worked quite well, but there was very little vehicle combat in that one.