Lyndon_B._Johnson_Space_Center: Security Forces?

[kalos72]

Anyone know what type of security forces one would find at a location like this?

Turns out its just north of Galveston...the ability to launch comm or surveillance satellites would be pretty nice to have.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Don't know about the 1990s period but certainly in the 2000s they used private security firms to provide everything from armed guards to security locks. So it's not inconceivable that they were using private companies to provide armed guards in the 1990s.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Anyone know what type of security forces one would find at a location like this?

Peacetime or wartime?

From what I can find, NASA sites seem to have contract security. Apparently the security force at the Kennedy Space Center is around 150 or so, including a SWAT team. I get the impression that security at JSC would just be gate guards, roving patrols, some physical security at mission control, etc.

Turns out its just north of Galveston...the ability to launch comm or surveillance satellites would be pretty nice to have.

There are no launch facilities at JSC. It's a training, R&D and administrative center.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Anyone know what type of security forces one would find at a location like this?

Turns out its just north of Galveston...the ability to launch comm or surveillance satellites would be pretty nice to have.

I never thought of that...

As for launching from Galveston, there's a private company gearing up to do that (IIRC), but it's way outside of the T2K timeline.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by James1978

Peacetime or wartime?

From what I can find, NASA sites seem to have contract security. Apparently the security force at the Kennedy Space Center is around 150 or so, including a SWAT team. I get the impression that security at JSC would just be gate guards, roving patrols, some physical security at mission control, etc.

There are no launch facilities at JSC. It's a training, R&D and administrative center.

I was in some training with a guy from NASA security, in addition to everything above they also have armed helicopters (miniguns out the side) he showed up photos of all this just did a web search for it on public computer.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I never thought of that...

As for launching from Galveston, there's a private company gearing up to do that (IIRC), but it's way outside of the T2K timeline.

Along those lines, would either side have bothered to use a nuke on the Ariete launch facilities in French Guyana? And if not -- the base is a major training base for the Foreign Legion -- did anyone get stuck there? Did the French try to get them out? Did they become a local security force for civilians in the area?

[stormlion1]

Private Security for the most part but really good money that around a launch its beefed up by Military Units on site and probably on call from nearby military bases. NASA might be a civilian agency, but it does launch military equipment so they would have a reaction force available and they wouldn't trust a military payload to a civilian security force.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Along those lines, would either side have bothered to use a nuke on the Ariete launch facilities in French Guyana? And if not -- the base is a major training base for the Foreign Legion -- did anyone get stuck there? Did the French try to get them out? Did they become a local security force for civilians in the area?

NATO Vehicle Guide (V2) lists the 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment as stationed in Kourou, French Guiana with a strength of 350 men.

I thought I read somewhere that the launch facilities were intact and the French were still in full control but I'm not sure where (I thought it might have been in the NATO Vehicle Guide but it only lists the Legion Regiment in the French order of battle and doesn't go into any detail) so it might have been speculation / fan work.

[kalos72]

I understand it may not have launch facilities but surely a bunch of NASA training scientists can help put together a small ICBM like rocket capable of launching a satellite.

Still need a functioning comms satellite you can work however...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I understand it may not have launch facilities but surely a bunch of NASA training scientists can help put together a small ICBM like rocket capable of launching a satellite.

Still need a functioning comms satellite you can work however...

When you say "put together" do you mean assemble from a full suite of existing parts? Because in the middle of the Twilight War it would be difficult to say the least to manufacture from scratch any rocket capable of reaching orbit.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

When you say "put together" do you mean assemble from a full suite of existing parts? Because in the middle of the Twilight War it would be difficult to say the least to manufacture from scratch any rocket capable of reaching orbit.

I agree. My first thought is that you would need a stable well fed population of at least one million people before you would have the minimum infrastructure to consider building something from scratch. There are just so many dependencies. Of course at such a minimum a majority of production would need to be directed solely to space related manufacturing.

The fact that Israel (the smallest country to provide both launcher and satellite) performed a solo development and launch in 1989 when their population was 4.5 million, would seem to support that minimum population level. That population number comes with a lot of caveats though. Israel could go to the outside world for things like steel, titanium, solar panels, chemicals, transistors, etc, all of which would make things much easier from a production perspective.

[stormlion1]

How much of the equipment needed was bought from outside sources? Where any of the parts repurposed from other projects? Satellite is easy, if all you want it to do is beep. Its when you want it to multitask it gets harder. As for the rocket, well it might be relatively easy to put together a low orbit more or less unguided rocket. All you really need to do is build a V-2 Rocket in fact. Good bet someone would have the blueprints for that stashed somewhere.

[Tegyrius]

I'm thinkin' it's not gonna be as easy as a hand-wave. "Rocket science" is a catchphrase for a reason, y'know.

- C.

[kalos72]

Surely there is an ICBM sitting in silo some where without a warhead or something? A V-2 style rocket isn't that hard...in theory of course.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well... you can get by with a minimum of metallurgy knowledge to make the rocket and a graduate engineer could probably design a workable rocket but the fuel is a real "project killer". You need chemists but you also need facilities to manufacture the fuel and then that requires engineers and so on and so on.

Like Kato mentioned, there's a lot of dependencies and like Targan mentioned, it's going to be hard knowing exactly what you need let alone finding what you need in the T2k environment. And why would you use all those chemicals making fuel when you could be making fertilizer or explosives?

This is the sort of project that needs a few years worth of collecting (not just parts or knowledge but also the people who know how to use that knowledge) and for that part alone, it's a good campaign idea.
But... it's certainly not something that a small population is going to care about when the best they can muster is farm machinery and some computers. This would be something for CivGov, MilGov or maybe even New America to undertake.

As for what Kalos said, maybe there's an unused ICBM sitting in a silo somewhere, anything can happen in the game world if the GM allows it but even with that, it seems kind of pointless to put a satellite into orbit if all you're making it do is go "beep".

[kato13]

The final issue of GDWs challenge magazine does have a T2k adventure which describes getting Chinese rocket scientists and engine parts from Japan. The adventure is called "Rockets Red Glare".

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've worked out at the Cape here in FL, and let me tell you, when you get off the beaten tourist track and start driving around the reservation, it is fascinating. Now, back in 2002 (and previously), KSC and space exploration was a going concern for the US, so you really didn't get the whole feeling of abandoned structures etc.; sure there were some buildings that were no longer used (the "milk stool" concrete pad for the Apollo-1 rocket has "ABANDON IN PLACE" stenciled on it, for example) but by and large most stuff out there was in use. But it was weird, driving down these little access roads here and there and bam, you pass a small office building standing in the middle of what is effectively a coastal marsh, then nothing else.

Ahem.

Point being during one of these drives a co-worker at the time mentioned that one weekend (well prior to 9/11, mind) he'd decided to drive out and get some fishing in. Nothing was on the pad, and there was no scheduled transport so he could have his pick of the better spots on the surf. As is easy to do, he got turned around out in the boonies there and was tooling up one road when all of the sudden, a Blackhawk cruised over and hovered about 20' off the road in front of him, he said maybe 10-15 yards away. The door gunner (!) shook his head and wagged his finger at Ken, who nodded back and turned around and drove back the way he came.

[Olefin]

Actually if you want a possible intact launch site how about Wallops Island in VA? dont have my HW with me right now but dont remember that getting hit

They launch small rockets and payloads out of there all the time - and with Kennedy down for the count it would make for possibly the only intact facilty the US has left

as for assembling and launching rockets - that would really depend on what could be used from storage facilities and how much is left of NASA and Rockwell's engineers - there are always some rocket engines and rockets in storage - and while I dont see you making geosynchronous orbit with a cobbled together rocket I could see a low orbit satellite being possible

plus if any of the boomers survived - and given a Russian one did then surely at least one or two US ones did - you could use any unused Tridents for launching satellites - and you can make a relatively unsophisticated satellite that still offers useful info - again all depends what you have access to and who you have access to

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I've worked out at the Cape here in FL, and let me tell you, when you get off the beaten tourist track and start driving around the reservation, it is fascinating. Now, back in 2002 (and previously), KSC and space exploration was a going concern for the US, so you really didn't get the whole feeling of abandoned structures etc.; sure there were some buildings that were no longer used (the "milk stool" concrete pad for the Apollo-1 rocket has "ABANDON IN PLACE" stenciled on it, for example) but by and large most stuff out there was in use. But it was weird, driving down these little access roads here and there and bam, you pass a small office building standing in the middle of what is effectively a coastal marsh, then nothing else.

Ahem.

Point being during one of these drives a co-worker at the time mentioned that one weekend (well prior to 9/11, mind) he'd decided to drive out and get some fishing in. Nothing was on the pad, and there was no scheduled transport so he could have his pick of the better spots on the surf. As is easy to do, he got turned around out in the boonies there and was tooling up one road when all of the sudden, a Blackhawk cruised over and hovered about 20' off the road in front of him, he said maybe 10-15 yards away. The door gunner (!) shook his head and wagged his finger at Ken, who nodded back and turned around and drove back the way he came.

Having worked at national critical sites, most of them we can not keep some one out as there is to much space to cover, we will know if they get on, and can keep them from getting out and/or keep them from secure parts. A lot of it depends on the mission statement and how in your face they want to be. The last one that I worked for most of the land they did not care, you could come and go as you pleased, as long as you were respectful of others, but if you got to there inner area that was a different story.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

NATO Vehicle Guide (V2) lists the 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment as stationed in Kourou, French Guiana with a strength of 350 men.

I thought I read somewhere that the launch facilities were intact and the French were still in full control but I'm not sure where (I thought it might have been in the NATO Vehicle Guide but it only lists the Legion Regiment in the French order of battle and doesn't go into any detail) so it might have been speculation / fan work.

It was me who put that in a T2K article I wrote up a decade ago on Bryn Monnery's 2300AD website.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

as for assembling and launching rockets - that would really depend on what could be used from storage facilities and how much is left of NASA and Rockwell's engineers - there are always some rocket engines and rockets in storage - and while I dont see you making geosynchronous orbit with a cobbled together rocket I could see a low orbit satellite being possible

plus if any of the boomers survived - and given a Russian one did then surely at least one or two US ones did - you could use any unused Tridents for launching satellites - and you can make a relatively unsophisticated satellite that still offers useful info - again all depends what you have access to and who you have access to

I regard these scenarios as plausible.

[stormlion1]

Speaking of Trident Missiles where are they produced? Is there a depot for refurbishing them? Places like these could be source of parts or even complete missiles.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I think a grand (in both scope and ideal) adventure could be created wherein a recovery team of PCs is tasked with moving an ICBM in the midwest to a more suitable launch area in the US to get a weather satellite, or comms satellite (or both?) back in orbit. Some missile fields in the midwest have intact missiles, some launch facilities in the Southeast are still serviceable. Getting the two together is the task.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I think a grand (in both scope and ideal) adventure could be created wherein a recovery team of PCs is tasked with moving an ICBM in the midwest to a more suitable launch area in the US to get a weather satellite, or comms satellite (or both?) back in orbit. Some missile fields in the midwest have intact missiles, some launch facilities in the Southeast are still serviceable. Getting the two together is the task.

Moving an ICBM would be a massive undertaking in T2K 2001, even disassembled. I think a more realistic scenario would be for the PCs to be involved in moving the payload (satellite) from its storage or fabrication site to the missile in its silo.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

Moving an ICBM would be a massive undertaking in T2K 2001, even disassembled. I think a more realistic scenario would be for the PCs to be involved in moving the payload (satellite) from its storage or fabrication site to the missile in its silo.

I agree with Targan on his scenario - it would be like a reverse Satellite Down but in this case either having to retrieve the satellite from someone else first (i.e. its in a facility guarded by New America forces) or having to transport it and fend off raiders and others trying to get it and take it apart for the precious metals or electronic parts in it

especially difficult if it turns out the distance involved is quite long or if the satellite is behind enemy lines in CA in a facility the Mexicans havent found and you have to get there, load it up and get it out just to start the rest of the journey to the launching point

[rcaf_777]

Here's some infor on the subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...ement_agencies - at the end

http://www.calea.org/calea-update-ma...aining-academy

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

It was me who put that in a T2K article I wrote up a decade ago on Bryn Monnery's 2300AD website.

I knew I'd read it somewhere!

[kato13]

Talking about recovery of an ICBM.

Given an extended Cold War (ver 1.0) you could possibly see the deployment of the MGM-134 Midgetman mobile launchers. Real world the program was a post cold war budget cut casualty.

Given that the launcher itself is mobile, recovery would be a much simpler task. Heck Milgov could already have it but they need to move it south to make orbital insertion easier.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

Moving an ICBM would be a massive undertaking in T2K 2001, even disassembled. I think a more realistic scenario would be for the PCs to be involved in moving the payload (satellite) from its storage or fabrication site to the missile in its silo.

Getting a satellite into proper orbit from that latitude would be at the very best problematic, however. Launches from closer to the equator are done for that reason.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Getting a satellite into proper orbit from that latitude would be at the very best problematic, however. Launches from closer to the equator are done for that reason.

Very good point, I hadn't thought about the orbital mechanics involved. I guess it would depend on what kind of orbit was required, and that would depend on what sort of satellite it was.

If it was the ICBM that was to be transported, the only practical option would be rail and/or water.