Morrow Aviation Assets

[ArmySGT.]

So far outlined in the 3rd edition and modules the Project has available.

• Autogyro
• OH-6 Cayuse
• CH-47 Chinook
• C-130 Hercules

Any of these can be armed and perform a ground attack role. The Project doesn't appear to offer anything fixed wing with an air superiority role.

That is why I recommend the "light" and properly described defensive fighter for this role, the F-5 Freedom Fighter.

The role of protecting Morrow assets from Soviet air assets, and rogue units of the U.S., Canadian, and Mexican air forces. At the same time without appearing to challenge the legitimate air force of the U.S. government.

[ArmySGT.]

The next asset I would propose........

Aerostats.

These are lighter than air lift vehicles without a crew that remain tethered to a location.

Uses include

• high altitude antennas for greater broadcast and reception range.
• Radio relay for two ground stations over great or elevated terrain, such as mountainous terrain.
• Radar coverage for military and civil aircraft tracking.
• mobile radar coverage by changing the fixed location on a regular basis.
• Radar coverage during unusual weather or storm seasons such as hurricanes or tornadoes. (placed around the perimeter of a storm area or raised in the aftermath).
• long range and ultra long range video surveillance with multiple, all weather, pan/tilt/zoom cameras.
• Navigation beacons similar to the Loran system to guide emergency and relief aircraft.
• long duration air sampling platform for ionizing radiation and chemical warfare agents.

[stormlion1]

I see the Morrow Project having Cargo Planes and other aircraft like that, but I don't see them having any fighter aircraft. Too noticeable to go missing and the Project could depend on USAF or National Guard Aircraft to do any defending as there expected to wake up five years after a Nuclear Strike. There job is to help rebuild, not fight a war. So Cargo Planes and Helicopters. Lots of Helicopters, probably old Huey's as there were plenty made and were pretty rugged. They could serve as a gunship in a pinch but better for moving assets around to aid in the rebuilding project. Plus they don't need a runway like cargo planes.

[RandyT0001]

Maybe Spain's supplemental order of eight AV-8S Matadors in the 1980's were re-routed to the MP. This provide a flight of four at PB and the backup base.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

I see the Morrow Project having Cargo Planes and other aircraft like that, but I don't see them having any fighter aircraft. Too noticeable to go missing and the Project could depend on USAF or National Guard Aircraft to do any defending as there expected to wake up five years after a Nuclear Strike. There job is to help rebuild, not fight a war. So Cargo Planes and Helicopters. Lots of Helicopters, probably old Huey's as there were plenty made and were pretty rugged. They could serve as a gunship in a pinch but better for moving assets around to aid in the rebuilding project. Plus they don't need a runway like cargo planes.

I am not envisioning the F-5s as seeking out to engage Soviet units but, as on hand to protect Morrow Assets solely. On flight of four that covers Prime Base for example. An asset that can be maintained on standby status indefinitely with several pilots qualified for that plane. In this way a round the clock alert could be maintained without exhausted pilots.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I am not envisioning the F-5s as seeking out to engage Soviet units but, as on hand to protect Morrow Assets solely. On flight of four that covers Prime Base for example. An asset that can be maintained on standby status indefinitely with several pilots qualified for that plane. In this way a round the clock alert could be maintained without exhausted pilots.

But isn't Prime Base's true defense its being a hidden asset? Something a flight of fighters that will have to launch, if only for training give its location away? At most I could see a flight of fighters (or maybe just two) hidden at a nearby airfield but I really doubt it. The Project would probably depend on other assets to protect Prime Base. Hidden SAM sites or MAR's Teams.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

But isn't Prime Base's true defense its being a hidden asset? Something a flight of fighters that will have to launch, if only for training give its location away? At most I could see a flight of fighters (or maybe just two) hidden at a nearby airfield but I really doubt it. The Project would probably depend on other assets to protect Prime Base. Hidden SAM sites or MAR's Teams.

Prime is (was) hidden until activation. In P08 (Prime Base) the Base Commander built the village right at the mouth of the Canyon.

This precipitated the events that takes out the base staff and sets up for the faulty random numbers generator to wake Teams.

So I think, given that, The Project facilities are meant to be hidden until needed. Then at D+ 5 years the Project begins and a huge glowing "open for business" sign goes up over Prime, Regional Bases, and Depots.

That means the defensive nature of the Projects weapon systems (Anti tank but, no Tanks) means local defense of assets and refugees. This then means the need is to be active out to a minimum range, or plan on no assistance from a .mil asset actively engaged in the Soviet attack and invasion.

F-5s are short ranged and rely on a ground station to vector them to a target. Their armament is light and fuel capacity isn't great. The U.S. is fully aware of the capabilities (unless this is a fusion powered F-5!) and the radar profile is stored in the DoD computers for comparison.

Thus, a short ranged F-5 that launches only on command of a ground station and orbits an area no greater than 100 mile radius in a desolate area is going to make the DoD scratch their heads. The .gov remaining certainly would like to take control of or at minimum integrate those F-5s into an overall air defense plan if the project had happened at D + 5 years.

There isn't a .gov or .mil asset until one of the "New Presidencies" can be determined to be legitimate, if that ever happens.

[kato13]

FWIIW I also have a flight of 4 fighter aircraft at my prime. With maybe another 4 at backup prime.

I usually think about having a COIN capable aircraft like the OV-37. As it is developed from a trainer it would attract less attention.

The project built 4 as part of a testing program, but the project was abandoned and as far as the US govt is concerned they are sitting in a warehouse somewhere or were stripped for parts.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

FWIIW I also have a flight of 4 fighter aircraft at my prime. With maybe another 4 at backup prime.

I usually think about having a COIN capable aircraft like the OV-37. As it is developed from a trainer it would attract less attention.

The project built 4 as part of a testing program, but the project was abandoned and as far as the US govt is concerned they are sitting in a warehouse somewhere or were stripped for parts.

I think of the AH-6 as the gunship platform for the Project providing ground support. The F-5 provides Air Superiority (not the best) but, can if necessary deliver air dropped bombs.

The AH-6 little bird or AH-6 Defender are cost effective and capable each with mast mounted sights. The Little bird can sport rockets or gun pods and the Defender two paired pods for up to four TOW II missiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../oh-6-pics.htm

[ArmySGT.]

[welsh]

I have to admit, I find the entire idea of air assets to be kind of odd. To have any technologically sophisticated aircraft would suggest a long supply chain and production chain necessary to sustain that aircraft.

That would necessitate fairly simple, rudimentary technologies at play. How long would it take until the parts broke down? How much of service team do you need to keep the planes in the air?

A ultra-light? Ok. A very simple gyro-copter, fine. Ballooners, ok.

A Harrier Jumpjet? An Apache gunship?

More, I fear it breaks the entire post-apocalyptic vibe of the game. When I think of the post-apocalypse, I am thinking Fallout New Vegas, a Boy and his Dog, Mad Max and the diminishing fuel that exists. I can see Twilight 2000 with the problem of stills and items beginning to fall apart. But we are 150 years from nuclear war and most of the buildings that once existed have crumbled into ruin.

A simple World War 1 era, steampunkish type of air travel, I can see that, but sophisticated helicopter gunships don't seem to fit. I get that it might be cool, but is it logical in a world in which 20th century civilization is gone?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by welsh

I have to admit, I find the entire idea of air assets to be kind of odd. To have any technologically sophisticated aircraft would suggest a long supply chain and production chain necessary to sustain that aircraft.

That would necessitate fairly simple, rudimentary technologies at play. How long would it take until the parts broke down? How much of service team do you need to keep the planes in the air?

A ultra-light? Ok. A very simple gyro-copter, fine. Ballooners, ok.

A Harrier Jumpjet? An Apache gunship?

More, I fear it breaks the entire post-apocalyptic vibe of the game. When I think of the post-apocalypse, I am thinking Fallout New Vegas, a Boy and his Dog, Mad Max and the diminishing fuel that exists. I can see Twilight 2000 with the problem of stills and items beginning to fall apart. But we are 150 years from nuclear war and most of the buildings that once existed have crumbled into ruin.

A simple World War 1 era, steampunkish type of air travel, I can see that, but sophisticated helicopter gunships don't seem to fit. I get that it might be cool, but is it logical in a world in which 20th century civilization is gone?

The Morrow Project is teams of trained individuals cryogenically frozen and cached with vehicles and equipment. They expect to awaken 3-5 years after the war not 150. The Project would have come online with hundreds of personnel and many secret bases with prepositioned supplies and the industrial equipment to produce more. It is a quirk of fate necessary for the story line that makes it all unravel.

So, essentially for the 5th generation survivors your statement would be true for nearly all encounter groups but possibly two.

[ArmySGT.]

So, it would be just like the Scenarios in other modules to have a Team awaken with a vehicle that isn't quite up to the mission. Such as a helicopter gun ship when they need a five ton truck, or the V-150 APC when the threat is an M-60 main battle tank.

[mmartin798]

The other thing to consider is the rebuilding mission of the Project. We have to assume that vast amounts of infrastructure, thinking mainly bridges here, are gone. This makes moving reconstruction materials difficult by land, but not by air. CH-47 or even CH-53 for moving material, personnel and the like would make a lot of sense to the planners that expect to be doing this 5 to 10 years after the bombs fall.

[stormlion1]

If the Project had aircraft at Prime Base its a pretty good bet they would stockpile plenty of spare parts for them. Up to and including a few spare aircraft in storage and a Hanger Queen for spare parts. But to me I would believe UH-1 Iroquois Helicopters would be the main way for the Project to both defend itself and to move assets about. No need for landing fields, can carry troops or supplies and there would be plenty of helicopters available after Vietnam that could be bought, reconditioned, and stored with no one noticing. They were everywhere after the war. News Helicopters, transports, etc things like that. They would even be hidden as Morrow Industries helicopters until they get stored away. Maybe a few MH-6 Little Birds as well for transporting personnel and for fire support. The main thing is there small and can be easily cached away and don't really require a ton of space for a landing field and are probably better (I'm not sure really) on fuel than some fighters.

[Project_Sardonicus]

helicopters reflect for me what I think would be a real worry for the project, technology addiction. Where technology by it's very usefulness undermines them as how will they cope when they lose them.

Aircraft need super skilled crews, spare parts and however many they horde they will run out. And if there is a second nuclear strike, the EMP will wipe them out.

So I suspect the Project would use a small number of helicopters as a in case of dire emergencies. Probably a mixture of hueys and some Russian stuff, as their military stuck with low tech soldier proof for a lot longer.

A Morrow project Hind would seem more realistic than an Apache.

I suspect simpler aircraft like Helium blimps and drones would be a hit. Blimps don't crash if their engines fail and if a drone crashes the crew survive.

A small put upon a recon team evading Krell could well find a control unit for a half dozen hellfire armed drones as a welcome game changer.

[stormlion1]

The number of Helicopters would be very limited. There not something you see stored in a Bolt Hole after all! But for Prime and the Regional Bases and maybe some of the supply depots I do see them put to use. And as the time period was supposed to be only a five year sleep and then wake up parts shouldn't have been a huge issue. Plenty of spares sitting around in warehouses and airfields across the countrys and I could see teams emplaced near factorys having orders to check them out for spare parts after they wake up. But for the entire 150 years after the nukes and a wake up each and every helicopter will be worth its weight in gold. And would make good fodder for scenario's looking for parts and pieces to keep any they did have working.

[Project_Sardonicus]

I also wonder if there'd be a goodly number of bush planes, stuff like DC10s.

Easier to fly, easier to fix and if one engine goes out it doesn't nose dive instantly.

Some fearless pilot may even be able to glide in.

I always had an idea for a scenario, where in Texas some lucky survivors got a working oil well. Produce av gas and have the last working 747, that they fly too a few ultra succesful communities to trade with.

[stormlion1]

I wonder what the possibility might be for the Morrow Project to have gotten there hands on a few old K-Class Blimps or even L-Class Blimps. Not very large but they could be used to transport supplies to out of reach teams or retrofitted with comm gear to extend comms range.

Might even make a good encounter for a Morrow Team to find someone using them as well. There essentially Goodyear Blimps after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-class_blimp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-Class_Blimps

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

If the Project had aircraft at Prime Base...............

Prime Base has operational and reading to fly one OH-6 Cayuse.

In the support module, awaiting trained personnel to install systems and make flight worthy (after digging out the doors, and building an airfield) are two C-130s, and two CH-47s each completely disassembled to save space. There is three more OH-6 also disassembled.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

helicopters reflect for me what I think would be a real worry for the project, technology addiction. Where technology by it's very usefulness undermines them as how will they cope when they lose them.

Aircraft need super skilled crews, spare parts and however many they horde they will run out. And if there is a second nuclear strike, the EMP will wipe them out.

So I suspect the Project would use a small number of helicopters as a in case of dire emergencies. Probably a mixture of hueys and some Russian stuff, as their military stuck with low tech soldier proof for a lot longer.

A Morrow project Hind would seem more realistic than an Apache.

I suspect simpler aircraft like Helium blimps and drones would be a hit. Blimps don't crash if their engines fail and if a drone crashes the crew survive.

A small put upon a recon team evading Krell could well find a control unit for a half dozen hellfire armed drones as a welcome game changer.

I don't think the Morrow Project would be using Soviet anything in the aftermath of a nuclear war and ground invasion by the Soviet Union.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

I wonder what the possibility might be for the Morrow Project to have gotten there hands on a few old K-Class Blimps or even L-Class Blimps. Not very large but they could be used to transport supplies to out of reach teams or retrofitted with comm gear to extend comms range.

Might even make a good encounter for a Morrow Team to find someone using them as well. There essentially Goodyear Blimps after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-class_blimp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-Class_Blimps

Absolutely blimps are remarkably durable probably the least crashed aircraft in WW2, once you switch from hydrogen to helium. Have endurance measured in days not hours and if there's no clear roads for vehicles 70mph seems pretty fast.

A Blimp would provide a remarkably stable platform for launching and guiding a wide range of missiles. Indeed it wouldn't take much work to make it flying aircraft carrier for light drones.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Absolutely blimps are remarkably durable probably the least crashed aircraft in WW2, once you switch from hydrogen to helium. Have endurance measured in days not hours and if there's no clear roads for vehicles 70mph seems pretty fast.

A Blimp would provide a remarkably stable platform for launching and guiding a wide range of missiles. Indeed it wouldn't take much work to make it flying aircraft carrier for light drones.

More of a 4th Edition take on the use of Blimps by the Project I would say. Not really sure how many Drones were available in the late 80's.

[kato13]

Since the canon project does has at least a few cargo planes, has there been any thought to Seaplanes? Given that they have zero need for a runway, I could see them being very valuable in the great lakes and for coastal project assets.

With fusion engines and the ability to land where there is water their mobility would be amazing.

[stormlion1]

Storage for Seaplanes becomes an issue but for places like the Great Lakes, Coastlines, Alaska and Hawaii I can see them getting a few stocked away. Maybe build a coastal cache and store a plane like the Grumman Goose in pieces for eventual reclamation by a team to be designated by Prime Base later.

[kato13]

I am thinking that maybe the project could make the US licencesed version of this Dornier Seastar.

The 1985 development is a tight fit for a canon project, but maybe advances the project makes in composites move it a bit forward.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

More of a 4th Edition take on the use of Blimps by the Project I would say. Not really sure how many Drones were available in the late 80's.

I always thought of the project having a key to the patent office for certain key technologies.

Also I believe Israel was using them through out the 1980s in the Lebabnon, to prick Syrian radars into action.

nb why doesn't the project fit night sights to any of it's heavy weapons.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

I always thought of the project having a key to the patent office for certain key technologies.

Also I believe Israel was using them through out the 1980s in the Lebabnon, to prick Syrian radars into action.

nb why doesn't the project fit night sights to any of it's heavy weapons.

When the 3rd edition was written the PVS-2 was in use, the PVS-4 and TVS-5 were yet to be issued.

Tanks and APCs had at best active infrared systems like the M60A1.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

I am thinking that maybe the project could make the US licencesed version of this Dornier Seastar.

The 1985 development is a tight fit for a canon project, but maybe advances the project makes in composites move it a bit forward.

Why not previous designs made with modern materials? The PBY Catalina and the Grumman Goose are both Amphibians.

Imagine either with composite wing structures and electric motors powered by a fusion reactor.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Why not previous designs made with modern materials? The PBY Catalina and the Grumman Goose are both Amphibians.

Imagine either with composite wing structures and electric motors powered by a fusion reactor.

They would be excellent examples. For some reason though I think that a new development would attract less attention that re-engineering something that has been out of production for decades.

You could attribute it to a project member being a historical aviation fanatic and wanting to have a classic seaplane at each of his homes. Oddly the first 6 fuselages that they build had flaws and needed to be scrapped (wink )