Amusing article in regards to museum tanks and the Ukraine

[Schone23666]

I know there's been a bit of a discussion about the feasibility of various factions salvaging whatever armor they might try to beg/borrow/steal etc. museums, private collectors, etc. Well, here's an interesting tidbit where it seems, indeed, the Ukrainian rebels broke into a museum to do just that:

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebels...200231480.html

I wouldn't go so far to say the T-54 tank is strictly a museum piece, though. Sure, it's old enough to be my grandfather if I had one, but there's still quite a few of them around the world still chugging along in use, that and the T-55. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it seems the T-54/55 were the armor equivalent of the AK-47, as in they've been sold by the trainloads all over the planet. I'd be amused to see a T-34 show up at some point though, and I've heard rumors of those still operating in spots here and there...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

T55's in the M48 range of tanks, which are still in use by a few states (albeit highly upgraded), so it's not unfeasible that they've scraped together some.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

T55's in the M48 range of tanks, which are still in use by a few states (albeit highly upgraded), so it's not unfeasible that they've scraped together some.

Besides, as many have said here before, any armor is better than no armor at all. Yeah, so a T-55 is toast if it comes up against a T72.

My $0.02

Mike

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

Besides, as many have said here before, any armor is better than no armor at all. Yeah, so a T-55 is toast if it comes up against a T72.

My $0.02

Mike

But I will take a T-55 any day against troops who dont have anti-armor weapons - or against scout cars or armored cars that only have machine guns for armament

and keep in mind for the game - many collectors and museums have stuff in lots better shape - Littlefield had several tanks and SPG's that were ready to rock given ammo as do several collectors in the US and the UK

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

T55's in the M48 range of tanks, which are still in use by a few states (albeit highly upgraded), so it's not unfeasible that they've scraped together some.

There are a number of countries (such as Israel, Poland, Ukraine, and Czech Republic) who are raking in nice coin upgrading the T-55s of countries who cannot afford whole new tanks. The recipient can choose the upgrade package according to his needs and budget, and can range from simple passive armor plates to add-ons like ATGM or grenade launchers. New engines and transmissions are very popular.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

There are a number of countries (such as Israel, Poland, Ukraine, and Czech Republic) who are raking in nice coin upgrading the T-55s of countries who cannot afford whole new tanks. The recipient can choose the upgrade package according to his needs and budget, and can range from simple passive armor plates to add-ons like ATGM or grenade launchers. New engines and transmissions are very popular.

Yeah; I got a picture around here somewhere of a couple of T55's in a parade in Egypt (undated, I'm guessing 70s or 80s) and each is sporting a SAKR-built missile launcher on each side of the turret (not sure what the particulars of the system is).

[Askold]

Originally Posted by Olefin

But I will take a T-55 any day against troops who dont have anti-armor weapons - or against scout cars or armored cars that only have machine guns for armament

and keep in mind for the game - many collectors and museums have stuff in lots better shape - Littlefield had several tanks and SPG's that were ready to rock given ammo as do several collectors in the US and the UK

Yeah, good points.

Finnish military also has some T-55s (and a few T-54s as well) mostly for training purposes, but some older reservists could end up using the few remaining tanks since those were the tanks they trained with when they were conscripts.

Some of the instructors did comment though that with the modern ammo those tanks can be a threat (although the few T-54s would probably just be buried so that only the turret is visible and used basically as AT cannons. Since otherwise the accurasy is pretty bad.)

...

Likewise, if a war had started during the 90's there would have been Finnish reservists using Maxim machine guns.

And why not? Those things still worked and 7.62x54R is still as functional as it used to be (not to mention that Finland has plenty of ammo for that) and the only downside is the weight. Which is not that much of a problem if you just need a mg post for some checkpoint rather than plan on going offensive with it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Yeah; I got a picture around here somewhere of a couple of T55's in a parade in Egypt (undated, I'm guessing 70s or 80s) and each is sporting a SAKR-built missile launcher on each side of the turret (not sure what the particulars of the system is).

IIRC, the Sakr is domestically-produced AT-4 or 5.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

IIRC, the Sakr is domestically-produced AT-4 or 5.

Cool. The book with the photo in it didn't go into details at all and the usual sources never turned up any info on what that particular system was.

Interestingly the launchers are in an under-over box arrangement, one on each side of the turret (like how the Bradley has it's TOW launcher but two of 'em).

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

Besides, as many have said here before, any armor is better than no armor at all. Yeah, so a T-55 is toast if it comes up against a T72.

My $0.02

Mike

being a light guy myself i never have agreed with that. i's easier to hide 4-5 dismounts than it is a single T-55 and those dismounts could easily kill that weak tank with relatively cheap ordinance.

that said if you have guys backing you up and a few out-riders with your tank allowing for proper armor-infantry mutual support then and only then is your cheap tank even worth the fuel to run it. (which keeps coming up in the games i've played. both with the GM ambushing the party and the party hitting lone tanks.)

[Olefin]

Oh I agree with you how vulnerable a tank is without infantry support - every battle tanks have ever been in has proven that - but if you have that support a tank is a game changer

for those who have done multiple campaigns a tank can be a pain but also invaluable as well - especially since anti-armor weapons by 2000 have becomes rare in many places - and getting the spare parts, lubrication, parts to convert it to alchohol, etc.. would be a great mini-campaign all by itself to have a team of guys be able to get a museum piece going (including the fun finding ammo for it or finding someone who can take practice ammo and real rounds for it)

and the canon even has the occasional restoration vehicle to be found in it - the APC sitting in the garage restored and ready to go except for a MG and a battery to finish it in Grenada comes to mind immediately

and they took working howitzers as well - again something that would make a PC groups life very interesting to either run into one in the hands of the enemy -or finding one sitting in a garage or barn, its owner dead from a heart attack when EMP took out his pacemaker

[rcaf_777]

Dont forgot about military weapons used for avalanche control

"Military weapons were first used to control avalanches in North America in 1949 at Alta Ski Area, Utah and Berthoud Pass, Colorado. Military weapons proved remarkably successful and use quickly expanded; today, thirteen Forest Service permitted ski areas, five state departments of transportation, one state owned railroad, the British Colombia Department of Highways, Parks Canada, and several private operations mostly use 75mm and 105mm recoilless rifles for avalanche control. Many of these users literally depend upon 75mm and 105mm recoilless rifles, last manufactured in the late 1940 's and early 1950's, for public safety and economic viability; unfortunately, only about a five year supply of these weapons and ordnance exist."

http://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-scie...90-167-174.pdf

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There was an issue in the mid 2000s about some 105s (M101's I believe) that'd been given to the park service...and they got taken back due to a pressing need for them in the Iraq or Afghanistan theater. I forget which it was.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Dont forgot about military weapons used for avalanche control

I have seen mortars, howitzers (75mm pack) as well as RCLs used for avalanche control. I keep trying to picture your first day of ski patrol training when they unveil the artillery piece...

On a different note, I remember seeing on the web a couple of years ago (ah, thank you google): tanks as far as the eye can see

This is more of interest to us today, as these would have been active in T2K. It would be interesting to see if this yard is somewhat more active today.

I found the yard at the time by going to Kharkov on google maps and following the rail lines in town until I found the depot.

Another thought is the number of town squares or parks (In the US) that have a cannon - a pre-breechloading cannon. Depending on how the barrel is blocked, and how well the barrel was preserved, this may be brought back to a condition usable for anti personnel fire. Grapeshot at 100m is still nasty against a group of men rushing the town gate...

Hmm. a small factory could possibly devise a simple contact fuse for basic HE shells (ACW level technology). That cold push its usefulness out to say 1000 meters. Not very helpful against an actual tank, but a 3-in cannonball or AP bolt against a bus with a half-inch steel plate would be effective (if you can hit).

It would be easier to get one of these back into firing condition than a WW2-era 75mm howitzer form in front of the VFW hall... Of course, some of these were display-only replicas of cheap metal not meant to ever actually fire; some have simply aged and rusted and weakened (find that out by firing it ), and some are probably too well blocked up to be usable.

More fun would be a table for firing, with entries between "fires normally" "carriage falls apart", and "catastrophic explosion."

We fired our cannon til the barrel melted down,
Then we grabbed an alligator and fought another round,
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.
-- The Battle of New Orleans

[Adm.Lee]

And, regarding cannon, there are the Mythbusters episode(s) about wooden cannon. I think one was seen in the Russian movie "1612" (pretty fun to watch, if a bit supernatural).

[Olefin]

the only problem with Civil War cannon being used is that the gunners are very exposed due to ranges - anyone with any kind of decent hunting rifle and a scope would be picking off the gunners pretty easily -

[rcaf_777]

Here are a couple of pictures I found not sure what type of Artillery Cannon this is. Washingston State is now using M-60 Tanks, which is what the second picture is off

Source: http://unofficialnetworks.com/2013/0...lanche-control

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the only problem with Civil War cannon being used is that the gunners are very exposed due to ranges - anyone with any kind of decent hunting rifle and a scope would be picking off the gunners pretty easily -

Only if you keep the cannon in the open. Put in an sanger or pillbox pointing in the right direction, and the hunting rifle at a couple hundred yards is not as big a threat as the cannon.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Here are a couple of pictures I found not sure what type of Artillery Cannon this is. Washingston State is now using M-60 Tanks, which is what the second picture is off

Source: http://unofficialnetworks.com/2013/0...lanche-control

When did they start using tanks? Must make avalanche control a fun job for sure - and an easy commute as well - no one cuts off a tank

[pmulcahy11b]

There's at least one state that has a T-55 for the same purpose. What kind of round do you use in avalanche control?

[Panther Al]

Basic HE: Gives a nice hard enough Bang and Shock to break up the snow packs.

[Olefin]

Speaking of museum tanks have been doing research and found an interesting idea for an encounter for anyone playing in Italy or possibly the Italian occupied areas of Yugoslavia - if the Italians were desperate enough to use these before they pulled out

L 3/33, L 3/35, L3/38 and L6 tankettes from WWII - turns out there a several of them running around in running condition just lacking armament in Italy - definitely be a head scratcher to pull out of the encounter deck to surprise your party