Netherlands OOB

[Mohoender]

I keep on going with what I came up for my game and with the archives that are linked to it.

About, the Dutch, I modified something important as they keep a tiny air force and some ships. The queen is back in her country and the dutch retain control over a very few oil shell in the North sea (or may be they seized a few: 1 or 2) much like the British. After all they are allied, the Queen found refuge in HMG controlled land and the oil companies of both countries are tightly linked.

Nevertheless, despite this small advantage when compare with cannon, the country is pretty much in the situation described. Half of the land was and remain flooded. All major cities were nuked and the new capital is Groningen (north). So far what remain of the army (recently slightly reinforced) is barely enough to ensure security in the state controled enclaves. Military operation against France have been suspended and a truce is in effect, the threat of marauders continues to be a huge problem and ressources are more than limited.

Royal Dutch Army
I Netherlands Corps
- 4th Infantry Division (Mechanized)
Manpower : 1100
- 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized)(Reserve)
Manpower : 800
Corps Troops
- 101st Infantry Brigade (Composite Motorized/Mechanized)
Manpower : 350
- 102nd Artillery Group
Manpower : 250
Artillery : 6
- 101st Air Defense Artillery Group
Manpower : 200
Artillery : 2 Gepard, 2 I-Hawk, 3 Bofors
- 101st Engineer Group
Manpower : 150
- 53rd Infantry Bn (Light)
Manpower : 300
- 101st Military Police Bn
Manpower : 180
II Netherlands Corps (Territorial Army)
- 302nd Infantry Brigade
Manpower : 500
- 304th Infantry Brigade
Manpower : 500
-460th Engineer Group
Manpower : 260
Mobile Command
- 102nd Recon Battalion
Manpower : 220 cavalry
- 103rd Recon Battalion
Manpower : 300
- 104th Recon Battalion
Manpower : 250 cavalry
Royal Netherlands Marines
- W Kompanie (Queen bodyguard)
Manpower: 50
- 1st Commando Group
Manpower : 190
- 2nd Commando Group
Manpower : 200

Royal Netherlands Air Force
No. 119 Squadron
Equipments: 2 I-Hawk, 5 Bofors.
No. 300 Squadron
Aircrafts: 1 Bo-105, 1 AH-64, 2 Super Puma.
No. 311 Squadron
Aircrafts: 4 F-16, 3 PC-9.
No. 860 Squadron
Aircrafts: 3 Lynx HAS.

Royal Dutch Navy
- HNLMS De Ruyter (F804) (Frigate)
- HNLMS Willem van der Zaan (F829) (Frigate)
- HNLMS Van Nes (F833) (Frigate)
- HNLMS Dolfijn (S808) (Submarine)

[Mohoender]

Royal Dutch Army
1 January 1997

I Netherlands Corps
1st Infantry Division (Mechanized)
11th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
12th Infantry Brigate (Mechnaized)
13th Armored Brigade
102nd Reconnaissance Bn
4th Infantry Division (Mechanized)
41st Armored Brigade
42nd Infantry Brigade(Mechanized)
43rd Infantry Brigade(Mechanized)
103rd Reconnaissance Bn
5th Infantry Division (Mechanized)(Reserve)
51st Armored Brigade
52nd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
53rd Infantry Brigade (Mechanized)
104th Reconnaissance Bn
Corps Troops
101st Infantry Brigade (Composite Motorized/Mechanized)
101st Artillery Group
102nd Artillery Group
103rd Artillery Group
101st Air Defense Artillery Group
101st Engineer Group
53rd Infantry Bn (Light)
101st Military Police Bn
101st Reconnaissance Bn
105th Reconnaissance Bn
101st Chemical Co (NBC)
104th Commando Co

II Netherlands Corps (Territorial Army)
302nd Infantry Brigade
304th Infantry Brigade
460th Engineer Group
305th Commando Brigade

Royal Netherlands Marines
1st Marine Group (released to UK 3rd RMCB on invasion of Norway by WP forces)
2nd Marine Group (DWI Security Force)
3rd Marine Group

Notes:
RMCB- Royal Marine Commando Brigade
DWI- Dutch West Indies

[Mohoender]

Royal Netherlands Air Force 1 January 1997

Air Units
Helicopter Units (Attached I Ne Corps)
No 298 Squadron (Transport Helicopter) Einhoven, NL (CH-47)
No 299 Squadron (Attack Helicopter) Deelen, NL (BO-105C)
No 300 Squadron (Transport Helicopter) Deelen, NL (Alouette III)
No 301 Squadron (Attack Helicopter) Gilze-Rijen, NL (30 AH-64D)
No 302 Squadron (Helicopter Pilot Cadre) Deenlen, NL
Air Force (Fixed and Rotary Wing)
No 303 Squadron (SAR) Leeuwarden, NL (AB 412SP)
No 306 Squadron (Reconnaissance) De Peel, NL (24 RF-16A)
No 311 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber)(Nuclear Delivery) Volkel, NL (24 F-16C)
No 312 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber) Volkel, NL (24 F-16A)
No 313 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber) Twenthe, NL (24 F-16C)
No 314 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber) Glize-Rijen, NL (24 F-16C)
No 315 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber) Twenthe, NL (24 F-16C)
No 316 Squadron (Fighter Bomber/Operational Training) Eindhoven, NL (24 F-16C)
No 322 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber) Leeuwarden, NL (24 F-16A)
No 323 Squadron (Fighter/Bomber) Leeuwarden, NL (24 F-16A)
No 334 Squadron (Transport) Eindhoven, NL (2 C-130, 4 Fokker 60, 2 Fokker 50, 2 KC10, 10 F-27)
Training/Replacement
184th TFTS (Training/Airframe Replacement)(US AZANG) Tuscon, AZ (10 F-16A)


Air Defense Units
Air Base Point Defense
No 119 Squadron Leeuwarden, NL (3 I-Hawk Launchers, 9 40L70 AA Guns)
No 121 Squadron –Glize-Rijen, NL (3 I-Hawk Launchers, 9 40L70 AA Guns)
No 221 Squadron Soesterberg, NL (3 I-Hawk Launchers, 9 40L70 AA Guns)
No 222 Squadron – Twenthe, NL (3 I-Hawk Launchers, 9 40L70 AA Guns)
No 223 Squadron – Volkel, NL (3 I-Hawk Launchers, 9 40L70 AA Guns)
No 224 Squadron – De Peel, NL (3 I-Hawk Launchers, 9 40L70 AA Guns)
No 225 Squadron – Nieuw Milligen CRC, NL (9 40L70 AA Guns)

Tactical Air Defense
3rd Guided Weapons Group (Groep Geleide Wapens) Deployed to the FRG:
No 326 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
No 328 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
No 500 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
No 502 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
5th Guided Weapons Group (Groep Geleide Wapens) Deployed to the FRG:
No 324 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
No 327 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
No 501 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
No 503 Squadron (Air Defense) (I-Hawk )
National Air Defense
12th Guided Weapons Group (Groep Geleide Wapens) (Hespe)
No. 118 Squadron (Air Defense) (Patriot)
No. 200 Squadron (Air Defense) (Patriot)
No. 223 Squadron (Air Defense) (Patriot)
No 801 Squadron (Air Defense) Volkel, NL (Patriot)
No 802 Squadron (Air Defense) Leeuwarden (Patriot)
No 803 Squadron (Air Defense) Eindhoven, NL (Patriot)
Training
No 804 Squadron (Air Defense Training) De Peel, NL (Patriot/ I-Hawk)

Naval Aviation
Sea-Based Helicopter Units
No. 7 Squadron (UH-14A & SH-14B/C Lynx)
No. 860 Squadron (UH-14A & SH-14B/C Lynx)

Maritime Patrol Units (Groep Maritieme Patrouillevliegtuigen)
No. 320 Squadron (Maritime Patrol) Valkenburg, NL (6 P-3C)
Det 1, 320 Squadron (Maritime Patrol) Keflavik, Iceland (1 P-3C)
No. 321 Squadron(Maritime Patrol) Valkenburg, NL (6 P-3C)
No 336 Squadron (Maritime Patrol) Curacao, DWI (2 F-27)

Transport Units
No 2 Squadron (VIP Transport) Valkenburg, NL (Beech King Air)

[Olefin]

Found this article on weapons of various types that the Netherlands had in their navy, air force and army and how many they had to either destroy or give away due to the Conventional Force Reduction Treaty in our timeline. For those doing stories about Dutch units in Europe or the Caribbean it offers lots of info on equipment they would have had and also what was available for reserve units or militia units that would have been raised after the French invasion of the Netherlands or in the Antilles

Enjoy

[lordroel]

Finally a thread i can like, not that i have like the others so far.

Did created my own version of 1997 Netherlands forces for a timeline i once created.

[Olefin]

I remember your post Roel - and its very helpful on stuff I am working on - I liked the information in the pdf I posted because of the stuff it had on weapons that were in storage - much of which is not covered in any Twilight 2000 canon information on the Netherlands - just looking at what they had in 1994 still you can see:

30,693 M1 carbine
8403 M1 Garand rifles
39,000 Uzi's
39,000 Browning 9mm pistols
27,000 FAL rifles
1950 Bren machine guns
74 M-40A1 106mm recoilless rifles

Let alone stuff like the YP-408 APC's

So right there you have what you need to equip militia or reservist troops for any scenario you have in the Netherlands let alone possible equipment you would have people run into if you were running a game - i.e. the French unit you have that runs into Netherlands resistance fighters armed with old M1 Garands and Uzi's and have an M-40A1 that takes out the APC that was backing you up

hope its useful to you

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I remember your post Roel - and its very helpful on stuff I am working on - I liked the information in the pdf I posted because of the stuff it had on weapons that were in storage - much of which is not covered in any Twilight 2000 canon information on the Netherlands - just looking at what they had in 1994 still you can see:

30,693 M1 carbine
8403 M1 Garand rifles
39,000 Uzi's
39,000 Browning 9mm pistols
27,000 FAL rifles
1950 Bren machine guns
74 M-40A1 106mm recoilless rifles

Let alone stuff like the YP-408 APC's

So right there you have what you need to equip militia or reservist troops for any scenario you have in the Netherlands let alone possible equipment you would have people run into if you were running a game - i.e. the French unit you have that runs into Netherlands resistance fighters armed with old M1 Garands and Uzi's and have an M-40A1 that takes out the APC that was backing you up

hope its useful to you

Well did also some other stuff, mostly pre war and pre-French invasion , thanks for liking it.

Also if the nukes go of in Amsterdam, you can say good by to the Fokker plants as they where located next to Shiphol Airport.

Also Olefin there are also some former minesweepers who where transferred to the sea scouts who could go back to service.

Also this in dutch but you can use google translate are a list of all MOB places in the Netherlands, interesting are the POMS Sites (Prepositioned Organizational Material Sets belonging to the US army.

http://www.forten.info/index.htm?cat...jnen/hoofd.htm

[Olefin]

FYI there are a bunch of papers at the site that I got this from

the link to them all is https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/

the Dutch pdf I posted with the info on their surplus weapons is paper 5 - i.e. https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/paper5.pdf

Going to look thru but from what I saw there might be others like it that could help on various areas for people either doing research or campaigns - and from what I am seeing it could be used for V1 or V2.2

With V1 having the weapons shown still with the Dutch Army (i.e. no post Cold War draw down and no conventional force draw down) versus V2.2 that would have it and thus you can see what they would have gotten rid of

If I find anymore I will post them here

[Louied]

Might want to take a look at his site (a colleague of mine), for a very detailed take on the Netherlands.

https://www.orbat85.nl

[Olefin]

I have and love that site - lots of great info - combine the two together and you have a real look at what they had for equipment - and what surviving military forces might have (both militia, resistance and regular military)

and it also shows the units that were missing or incorrect in the canon - especially the Netherlands Royal Marines - they are not described correctly in the canon NATO releases - in size or in name - as well as other parts of the Netherlands Armed Forces

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I've just had a look through the pdf that Olefin linked. Does anyone know if those Bren Guns (1949 of them) were in .303 or 7.62x51mm calibre?
I was going to assume they were 7.62mm but considering the sheer number of M1 Carbines and M1 Garands they kept in storage, it's probably dangerous to assume!

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I've just had a look through the pdf that Olefin linked. Does anyone know if those Bren Guns (1949 of them) were in .303 or 7.62x51mm calibre?
I was going to assume they were 7.62mm but considering the sheer number of M1 Carbines and M1 Garands they kept in storage, it's probably dangerous to assume!

Since you committed yourself to 7.62mm, naturally they were in .303. Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons has a copy of 1943 manual No. 802, titled "Ontwerp-Voorschrift voor den Lichten Mitrailleur van 7,7mm (Bren model I)."

Edit: I suppose they could have been re-barreled after the war, but I haven't seen records regarding that.

[mpipes]

From what I understand, most Brens in the world were updated in the late 1950s and 60s to the L4 7.62mm cartridge.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Since you committed yourself to 7.62mm, naturally they were in .303. Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons has a copy of 1943 manual No. 802, titled "Ontwerp-Voorschrift voor den Lichten Mitrailleur van 7,7mm (Bren model I)."

Edit: I suppose they could have been re-barreled after the war, but I haven't seen records regarding that.

Of course!
But seriously, thanks for the information. As mentioned, I was initially going to assume they were 7.62mm but I couldn't recall any images or general information that mentioned Dutch forces using the Bren (at least not after the 1950s anyway). So it was definitely better to ask!

Originally Posted by mpipes

From what I understand, most Brens in the world were updated in the late 1950s and 60s to the L4 7.62mm cartridge.

That generally holds true for nations that were/still are members of the British Commonwealth e.g. South Africa, Australia. But in non-Commonwealth nations, there doesn't seem to have been the drive to rechamber the Bren to 7.62mm (probably because they didn't see a particular need)

In the case of British forces, the Bren was kept on for two particular reasons: -
1. AAMG on some armoured vehicles e.g. Saracen APC
2. it was preferred by the Royal Marines over belt-fed MGs for artic warfare
In Australia, the Bren was rechambered to 7.62mm and allocated to second-line forces so it was a rare item in the Army inventory. It certainly wasn't part of the infantry or armoured forces equipment schedules, the only time I saw one in the hands of a front-line unit it had been borrowed from a transport unit to supplement the firepower at an OP.

[Olefin]

The Dutch continued to use the Bren for their National Reserve (NATRES) battalions long after it was no longer used by their regular army and marines

The only thing I could find on any details on it is this

"Each rifle group had either 1 x Bren light machine gun .303 inch or 1 x FN MAG 7.62 mm, and one bicycle"

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Louied

Might want to take a look at his site (a colleague of mine), for a very detailed take on the Netherlands.

https://www.orbat85.nl

I have it and read it a lot, used it for my Dutch forces in the Caribbean in 1997.

[Olefin]

Interesting place I read about today - BAIV (British American Infantry Vehicles) BV - its a company in Maarheeze (close to Eindhoven) that supplies, restores and serves historic WW2 Armored Vehicles & Tanks. Its got a fully equipped workshop and was started in the early 90's by a bunch of old vehicle collectors as a place they could work on vehicles together before becoming a for profit business around 2002.

Could be an interesting place for players doing a campaign in the Netherlands to go to for either spare parts, tools or working vehicles - and its exactly the kind of place that would have been overlooked. Among other things they had old jeeps, trucks and even a fully restored and working Comet tank that has a live barrel - and that was in that condition in the mid-90s. Alternatively it could be a way to introduce some interesting vehicles into an encounter if you are running French characters and have them run into either marauders or Dutch resistance.

As in "what the hell is that?" as a Comet tank fires from ambush on a French and Belgian patrol near Eindhoven

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Interesting place I read about today - BAIV (British American Infantry Vehicles) BV - its a company in Maarheeze (close to Eindhoven) that supplies, restores and serves historic WW2 Armored Vehicles & Tanks. Its got a fully equipped workshop and was started in the early 90's by a bunch of old vehicle collectors as a place they could work on vehicles together before becoming a for profit business around 2002.

Could be an interesting place for players doing a campaign in the Netherlands to go to for either spare parts, tools or working vehicles - and its exactly the kind of place that would have been overlooked. Among other things they had old jeeps, trucks and even a fully restored and working Comet tank that has a live barrel - and that was in that condition in the mid-90s. Alternatively it could be a way to introduce some interesting vehicles into an encounter if you are running French characters and have them run into either marauders or Dutch resistance.

Eindhoven would be under French occupation, its also the location of the DAF factory.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by lordroel

Eindhoven would be under French occupation, its also the location of the DAF factory.

Its why I could see the restoration facility being overlooked - the DAF factory is the huge prize -this is a bunch of guys restoring old vehicles in a town several miles outside town. So while the French put a big time guard around the DAF factory (if its still standing) they wouldnt probably even care about some old rusting WWII vehicles.

Perfect way for a marauder or resistance group to get stuff to fight back with.

And if the canon is right the Netherlands lost all their tanks in the fighting- so even an old Comet is better than nothing.

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Its why I could see the restoration facility being overlooked - the DAF factory is the huge prize -this is a bunch of guys restoring old vehicles in a town several miles outside town. So while the French put a big time guard around the DAF factory (if its still standing) they wouldnt probably even care about some old rusting WWII vehicles.

Perfect way for a marauder or resistance group to get stuff to fight back with.

And if the canon is right the Netherlands lost all their tanks in the fighting- so even an old Comet is better than nothing.

Wait how do you lose all of your 445 tanks.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by lordroel

Wait how do you lose all of your 445 tanks.

thats what I would like to know - Roel do you have either of the canon NATO books? if you look at them the Netherlands really took it on the chin - basically the Corps has been disbanded, so has one of their divisions and whats left has no tanks - i.e. the descriptions for the remaining formations have zero tanks

So somehow they lost all of them in the fighting per canon

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by lordroel

Wait how do you lose all of your 445 tanks.

Such losses are not unprecedented in history. Several German tank and Panzergrenadier divisions lost all of their tanks during WW2, sometimes on more than one occasion. They could replace at least some of those tanks with new builds until very late in the war. AFAIK, the Netherlands didn't manufacture their own tanks during the Cold War. If Holland's capacity to repair/rebuild damaged tanks was also severely degraded (say, by nuclear attack), it is reasonable to envision the loss of all of their operational armor during the course of WWIII.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Such losses are not unprecedented in history. Several German tank and Panzergrenadier divisions lost all of their tanks during WW2. They could replace at least some of those tanks until very late in the war. AFAIK, the Netherlands didn't manufacture their own tanks during the Cold War. If Holland's capacity to repair/rebuild damaged tanks was also severely degraded (say, by nuclear attack), it is reasonable to envision the loss of all of their operational armor during the course of WWIII.

that would make for a good adventure in a Netherlands campaign - i.e. having to sneak into the area that the French control to get parts you need (or possibly mechanics who got captured or otherwise lost behind enemy lines) so that they can get a few tanks back in operation - after all they didnt stop fighting the French -

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

thats what I would like to know - Roel do you have either of the canon NATO books? if you look at them the Netherlands really took it on the chin - basically the Corps has been disbanded, so has one of their divisions and whats left has no tanks - i.e. the descriptions for the remaining formations have zero tanks

So somehow they lost all of them in the fighting per canon

Have the NATO book i think somewhere on my PC.

In combat in Germany, i doubt the Netherlands ore any country will send all their tanks to fight and not leave some kind of reserve for homeland defense/material replacement

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by lordroel

Have the NATO book i think somewhere on my PC.

In combat in Germany, i doubt the Netherlands ore any country will send all their tanks to fight and not leave some kind of reserve for homeland defense/material replacement

Thats where the French invasion may have done them in - either by having tank storage or repair areas overrun during the invasion or by the fact that they would have already been weakened by the fighting in Germany and then basically faced fully equipped and unbloodied and fresh Belgian and French forces

If you look they really fought hard - some of the French and Belgian formations in the NATO books are missing a LOT of tanks - meaning that the Netherlands may have lost all the ones they had but the French and Belgians didnt get away scot free doing it

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Thats where the French invasion may have done them in - either by having tank storage or repair areas overrun during the invasion or by the fact that they would have already been weakened by the fighting in Germany and then basically faced fully equipped and unbloodied and fresh Belgian and French forces

If you look they really fought hard - some of the French and Belgian formations in the NATO books are missing a LOT of tanks - meaning that the Netherlands may have lost all the ones they had but the French and Belgians didnt get away scot free doing it

But the NATO book also said that by 1999 some of the AIFV the Netherlands Army still where fielding where deployed near the Rhine, so i find it strange that not a couple of dozen Leopard II where being fielded somewhere in the North of the Netherlands as a strategic reserve in case the French decided to breach the 50km deep free fire zone also known as the “La Zone Morte“ (English: Death Zone) separating French occupied Netherlands from on-occupied Netherlands

[Olefin]

Just wanted to remind people of a document I found in 2018 - it details the reduction in the Dutch forces due to the CFE Treaty that occurred in our timeline and I am pretty sure also happened in V2.2 - not sure about V4 but it may be a "reality" there too - shows how many vehicles, planes, small arms, etc.. they had to discard/sell/destroy and gives a window into the reduction of forces that happened to NATO

Also useful for those playing Dutch characters as it shows the kind of equipment they had before the reductions (i.e. for a V1 campaign) as to armored vehicles/tanks/small arms/etc.

Example from the document – By November 1995, the Netherlands had fulfilled all tis CFE reduction obligations through either cascading or destruction. The reductions were accomplished thru the disposal of the following:

Tanks: 170 Leopard IV
ACV: 104 M-113A1, 283 YP-408
Artillery: 230 M-30 and MO-120-RT-61 mortars, M-101 and M-114 howitzers

Also the document shows equipment that the Dutch sold previously as well - so lets say you are writing a module on Indonesia - yes thats you Legbreaker - you can see all the equipment the Dutch sold them from 1977- 1989

or where did all those Centurions go to that the Dutch had - answer they went to Austria who used them in the static fortress role - so Raellus thats for you and your Austrian Sourcebook

reposted the document again and its very useful for those doing V4 and wanting to try to create Dutch characters given the lack of info there - so you can see some of the weapons and vehicles they would have had and go from there

[Ursus Maior]

What a curious post. I was just looking for exactly such a document on the Bundeswehr. So far, I've had no luck, maybe I should look into Military Balance by IISS from the early Nineties.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

What a curious post. I was just looking for exactly such a document on the Bundeswehr. So far, I've had no luck, maybe I should look into Military Balance by IISS from the early Nineties.

I posted a link to where I found the paper before

you might want to check out the areas that say paperXX (as in paper05, paper11)

The Dutch info was paper05

https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/paper5.pdf

paper 11 had info on British excess weapons as part of the CFE - so the German paper may be there too

https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/paper11.pdf

[Ursus Maior]

Thanks, Olefin, the site is a treasure trove. Alas, not regarding to my question. I'll keep on searching then.