HAAM suits.

[ArmySGT.]

These very much need an update. They are to useful to discard and too powerful to give out to players as more than one or two.

[cosmicfish]

TMP in many ways seemed like someone brainstormed a post-apocalyptic game, and then decided to just include every idea without asking if they were consistent or made sense. The HAAM suit is wildly inconsistent with the rest of the game, and so mismatched in power that I cannot see any way it could be used in a game without making every subsequent mission a joke.

Kill it. Or change it to something much simpler and more limited.

[nuke11]

Think when the game was originally developed and what where the sci-fi games at that time to compete with?

Aftermath and Gamma World, there are others, but the names escape me at the moment.

So we have the Blue Undead and HAAM suits and other oddities in the game.

Do they make sense, no in most cases, but they make sense if you are developing a game in that time period.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by nuke11

Do they make sense, no in most cases, but they make sense if you are developing a game in that time period.

The HAAM suit and Blue Undead scream Gamma World to me, but that was the mistake - be distinctive, don't copy! And now is probably not a good time to emulate games that were popular so long ago. TMP 4ed should have no qualms about overwriting the decisions of 3ed and older.

[RandyT0001]

No Blue Undead in 4th edition.

HAAM suits are acceptable because the Project only has about seventy or so, one per Mars 1, one per Science 1, one at each regional command base and one at each of two regional supply bases. With twelve regions that accounts for 48 suits. If PB1 and PB2 each have ten for MARS service or as replacements that makes the total 68.

Most HAAM suits went to the US military (p. 186, 4th ed.). If the WoK were able to secure a US military base (pre-war) where HAAM suits were being issued then WoK might have ten to a hundred suits. After 150 years maybe half survived and are still functional.

[cosmicfish]

Why so few, when they are so unbelievably useful and powerful? And how did the US military get any, I thought they were always a Project invention?

[RandyT0001]

"Most of the production runs of the suit went to the US military. The Project was able to divert and produce a limited number for its own use." Bottom of p. 186, 4th edition TMP core rule book

IMO, the best ratio of diverted HAAM suits would be 10% of the production runs. At that ratio the US military has (had) about 700 suits (maybe an 'armed, armored individual', AAI battalion or five to six SF 'AAI' companies), most located at a secret base. A few might be the original test vehicles of 10 to 100 (squad to company sized unit testing) at a evaluation site of a base separate from the secret base (maybe WoK found out about this location and sacked it just pre-war?). Of course, all might have perished in the attack and only MP has any surviving examples.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Why so few, when they are so unbelievably useful and powerful? And how did the US military get any, I thought they were always a Project invention?

The most common catalyst used in the direct ethanol fuel cell uses platinum. That alone drives up the costs and scarcity of the power source. If we assume that Morrow Industries was a leader in nanotechnology, they could have yield problems on the nanostructured electrocatalysts made from iron, nickle and cobalt. This too would cause a scarcity problem.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The most common catalyst used in the direct ethanol fuel cell uses platinum. That alone drives up the costs and scarcity of the power source. If we assume that Morrow Industries was a leader in nanotechnology, they could have yield problems on the nanostructured electrocatalysts made from iron, nickle and cobalt. This too would cause a scarcity problem.

For this kind of application, how much platinum does it need? Right now platinum costs about $31k / kg, and that is not nearly so high to be limiting on something so incredibly useful! Heck, if it used 200kg of the stuff it would still be $6M well spent!

And remember that these things were supposedly in the 1989 loadings, so they had plenty of time afterward to roll some more off the presses!

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

For this kind of application, how much platinum does it need? Right now platinum costs about $31k / kg, and that is not nearly so high to be limiting on something so incredibly useful! Heck, if it used 200kg of the stuff it would still be $6M well spent!

And remember that these things were supposedly in the 1989 loadings, so they had plenty of time afterward to roll some more off the presses!

I only list that as one constraint. Myomeric polymers would have been bleeding edge technology. Even if they use cheap materials, it is exceedingly likely that there would be a correspondingly high failure rate with only a small percentage usable in a HAAM suit.

Ultimately, it is likely to be a case where the military sees this materiel at being too valuable to not have oversight in the manufacturing. You can only mark so many nearly complete components as bad and save them from destruction before the military gets suspicious.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I only list that as one constraint. Myomeric polymers would have been bleeding edge technology. Even if they use cheap materials, it is exceedingly likely that there would be a correspondingly high failure rate with only a small percentage usable in a HAAM suit.

Ultimately, it is likely to be a case where the military sees this materiel at being too valuable to not have oversight in the manufacturing. You can only mark so many nearly complete components as bad and save them from destruction before the military gets suspicious.

I guess I have two issues:

First, if HAAM suits were available for the 1989 load in, then even without any further technological advances there should be a ton of these just based on their utility. Even if they were originally military prototypes, by the time of the 2017 load in there should be a Morrow-only production line churning these out by the thousands! They may be expensive and difficult to build, but they are so unbelievably useful, especially in the post-apocalyptic environment, that the Project would be foolish not to issue them far and wide.

Second, HAAM suits are a transformational technology for anyone. Can you imagine what the US military could do with one of these attached to every rifle squad? If the US military had the ability to make this it would make the early-20th-century focus on tank development look slow and inconsequential. So why aren't there 20 different HAAM designs that the Project has to face? Plus the inevitable Russian and Chinese knock-offs, and the civilian recreational or industrial models?

The HAAM suit is cool, but tremendously inconsistent with the world it is claiming to be a part of.

[.45cultist]

You forget that HAAM suits are too radical, most would be at labs and proving grounds, and put into storage like a lot of nifty ideas.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

You forget that HAAM suits are too radical, most would be at labs and proving grounds, and put into storage like a lot of nifty ideas.

What do you mean "too radical"? Powered armor has been on military wishlists for half a century, and has been actively developed for a decade. The indicated numbers don't support "labs and proving grounds", those are high even for low-rate production - if the US has more than a dozen or so it is because they are being used.

[dragoon500ly]

The military has been test exo-skeletons for decades, some of the demo models are quite impressive with their enhanced strength, power seems to be the major stumbling block, with current batteries and fuel cells just not capable of going for more than a few hours, adding armor (weight), weapons, ammo, sensors, comm gear (did I mention weight?) Cuts into the operational time.

There is also the issue of ground pressure, you can only apply so much weight into the "footprint" before you start having issues with the suits sinking into soft ground, this is why many of the military's robots are fitted with tracks, that all terrain mobility is critical to the armored suit concept.

Truth be told, I feel that the HAAM suit will never be deployed.

[mikeo80]

Here is something for you to think about.

http://news.yahoo.com/military-39-39...141715486.html

Not a HAAM suit. Not Iron Man either. But, this seems to have potential. We will see.

My $0.02

Mike

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The military has been test exo-skeletons for decades, some of the demo models are quite impressive with their enhanced strength, power seems to be the major stumbling block, with current batteries and fuel cells just not capable of going for more than a few hours, adding armor (weight), weapons, ammo, sensors, comm gear (did I mention weight?) Cuts into the operational time.

Those are all valid for current demo models, but don't apply to the HAAM suit which has overcome those issues - we have the stats!

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

There is also the issue of ground pressure, you can only apply so much weight into the "footprint" before you start having issues with the suits sinking into soft ground, this is why many of the military's robots are fitted with tracks, that all terrain mobility is critical to the armored suit concept.

Using 3ed stats (since I don't have 4ed), the suit masses 907kg. If we give it another 93kg of pilot and such to make it a nice even 1000kg, and then assume that it has two feet that are ellipses 12" long and 4" wide (not unreasonable, to me), then the total ground pressure is about 50kPa (~7.3 PSI). If my math is correct then with those reasonably sized feet it would exert about as much ground pressure as a barefoot person, and much less than a car.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Those are all valid for current demo models, but don't apply to the HAAM suit which has overcome those issues - we have the stats!


Using 3ed stats (since I don't have 4ed), the suit masses 907kg. If we give it another 93kg of pilot and such to make it a nice even 1000kg, and then assume that it has two feet that are ellipses 12" long and 4" wide (not unreasonable, to me), then the total ground pressure is about 50kPa (~7.3 PSI). If my math is correct then with those reasonably sized feet it would exert about as much ground pressure as a barefoot person, and much less than a car.

Math seems off. Area of each ellipse is ~50 sq in. Mass 2200 pounds. Total "foot" area is ~100 sq in. Pressure with both feet on the ground about 22 PSI.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Math seems off. Area of each ellipse is ~50 sq in. Mass 2200 pounds. Total "foot" area is ~100 sq in. Pressure with both feet on the ground about 22 PSI.

My math was off, I had plugged in major/minor axis where it should have been semi-major/semi-minor. Using the right numbers puts the pressure at 29 PSI / 201 kPa... which is still about the ground pressure of a passenger car.

Still too much? Extend the feet to 15" long and 6" wide (smaller than most snowshoes) and pressure drops to 15.6 PSI / 107 kPa. Extend them to 8"x25" (small snowshoe) and PSI drops to 7 PSI / 48 kPa. Make them 10"x36" (large snowshoe) and PSI is only 3.9 PSI / 27 kPa.

None of those seem unreasonable. Heck, I might give the suit those 6"x15" feet for urban work and then give them attachable foot plates in the larger sizes for off-roading. The suits would still be too heavy for indoors, but that is the only real issue I see with the pressure.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

What do you mean "too radical"? Powered armor has been on military wishlists for half a century, and has been actively developed for a decade. The indicated numbers don't support "labs and proving grounds", those are high even for low-rate production - if the US has more than a dozen or so it is because they are being used.

We also have a type of force field, is it standard? Are the rail guns standard on destroyers? R&D suffers the "use it or lose it" mentality, prototypes suffer from "doesn't fit our current needs". The exoskeleton DoD fools around with allows current individual equipment to be used, HAAM only allows the non electric 20MM round.(Same round electrically primed is used by the navy Phalanx"R2D2".
Boils down to Council of tomorrow sees the HAAM potential and gives the go ahead, Military procurement sees the HAAM and beauracracy ensues. Read about General LeMays purchase of the AR-15 and the fit it caused.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

We also have a type of force field, is it standard? Are the rail guns standard on destroyers? R&D suffers the "use it or lose it" mentality, prototypes suffer from "doesn't fit our current needs".

If force fields and rail guns were at the same apparent TRL as the HAAM suits, then yes, they would be getting rolled out everywhere right now. "Force fields" at this point are laboratory creations with no practical usage, perhaps generously a TRL of 3. Rail guns are at the "fieldable prototype" stage and are being fielded with the intention of yes, making them standard on destroyers very soon, a TRL of 8! The discussions above have indicated HAAM suits at an early TRL 9 in 1989, and I have yet to see reasons why even that same level of performance at a mature TRL 9 would not be highly desired today.

So why do you think the HAAM suit would not be standard?

Originally Posted by .45cultist

The exoskeleton DoD fools around with allows current individual equipment to be used, HAAM only allows the non electric 20MM round.(Same round electrically primed is used by the navy Phalanx"R2D2".

Not sure why this is an issue at all. Is the HAAM somehow prevented from using other gear, or is it just that it only has one issued weapon? If the HAAM were real (or used in TMP) I completely agree that there should be more diverse weapons available, but I see absolutely no technical issues in furnishing them so I don't see what the problem is.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Boils down to Council of tomorrow sees the HAAM potential and gives the go ahead, Military procurement sees the HAAM and beauracracy ensues. Read about General LeMays purchase of the AR-15 and the fit it caused.

I don't see how the AR-15 plays into this unless it was the only assault rifle in the world at the time - if the HAAM suit was pushed off because there were even vaguely comparable alternatives, then what are they? New technology, when effective, is transformational. The HAAM suit as described is overwhelmingly effective and exists without anything comparable that could create the kind of quagmire you describe. Everyone is looking for the next such thing, and I don't see how bureaucracy would stop that.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I don't see how the AR-15 plays into this unless it was the only assault rifle in the world at the time - if the HAAM suit was pushed off because there were even vaguely comparable alternatives, then what are they? New technology, when effective, is transformational. The HAAM suit as described is overwhelmingly effective and exists without anything comparable that could create the kind of quagmire you describe. Everyone is looking for the next such thing, and I don't see how bureaucracy would stop that.

Curtis Lemay said," I'll take 20,000" with out any procurement input. Of course with the 4th Ed scenario that might be moot. A snake eater HAAM could cause satisfying dismay.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Curtis Lemay said," I'll take 20,000" with out any procurement input.

That wouldn't work with this scale of an item. Realistically, HAAM suits would be hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars.

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Of course with the 4th Ed scenario that might be moot. A snake eater HAAM could cause satisfying dismay.

If the US military had this technology for ~20 years pre-war I cannot see why they would not be popping up all over the place. Operation at Riverton had a tank, I would expect HAAM suits to last as well and be at least as prevalent. I would also expect the KFS to have a bunch, stolen variously from the Project and the Army!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I would also expect the KFS to have a bunch, stolen variously from the Project and the Army!

Expect them to field them soon. They have one from the captured science one vehicle.

[ArmySGT.]

So with 80's, 90's, and 00's tech what becomes HAAM suits integrated capabilities in the Mk3, Mk4, etc?

P.S. I may or may not be stealing some sweet ideas from artists on Deviant art.

multi spectral display? So thermal vision, infrared, and low light all integrated in one overly as a complete and colorized display is a good option like the latest generation monoculars that are thermal imagers and low light at the same time.

[ArmySGT.]

Considering some of the arguments above... I am content to let players have a HAAM Mk1 and give a newer more capable HAAM Mk2 to the Snake Eaters.

There is room for former U.S. Government assets or Defense Industry players to have bleeding edge technologies.

[rcaf_777]

An HAAMish Robot designed for the USAF to fix an atomic rocket engine, cleaning up spills of radioactivity material and rescue H-bomb victims?

http://cyberneticzoo.com/teleoperato...corp-american/