Improvised Armor in T2K

[Raellus]

I hesitated to post this topic due to some of the recent silliness in a related thread, but I decided to appeal to your better natures by doing so. What follows is a link to an interesting piece about what a few skillful, determined individuals can do with limited resources.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/a-t...x-tank-factory

I reckon one would see a lot of this sort of thing in the T2KU.

This would be a good place to post pics of example of improvised or heavily-modded armor from around the world.

[Legbreaker]

Years ago a group I was playing with added about ten layers of corrugated roofing iron to a light truck. Was more psychological than actual armour, but anything's better than nothing right?

[ArmySGT.]

That is a former tank factory (one that would have been nuked in any timeline) so the scale of the equipment is equal to the task. Note 100 ton crane in the first picture.

The first thing that makes this work is that it has the permission (backing) of the government.

Slightly more than a hillbilly armor thread.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Geraldine Cremin

So does that mean Azov has a license for Azovette and her fellow Mad Max tanks?

“No, this is a tractor. For paperwork purposes it’s a tractor,” Zvarych says with mock innocence, “We put metal on our own tractor. Why would we need a license for this?”

I LOL'd. Reminds me of my great-grandfather's tank.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Slightly more than a hillbilly armor thread.

A fair point. I can change the title of the thread, if you like.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

A fair point. I can change the title of the thread, if you like.

I don't know what title you could use.

Customized armor? Additional and certainly unauthorized armor? Trade off and one off, the armor edition?

I, for one am curious how Azovette is going to get around....... 1.5 meters of armor .... What is the new tonnage and can any Ukrainian roads or bridges support it?

What they really need to do is consolidate working equipment and bring in machinists / electricians to get the non working equipment going too. Ukraine if it was smart would invest in them with the stipulation that they produce agricultural equipment too.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Years ago a group I was playing with added about ten layers of corrugated roofing iron to a light truck. Was more psychological than actual armour, but anything's better than nothing right?

Somewhere in a forgotten corner of my site is a handy-dandy chart that would tell you the armor value of that corrugated iron.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I, for one am curious how Azovette is going to get around....... 1.5 meters of armor .... What is the new tonnage and can any Ukrainian roads or bridges support it?

I believe that's the total thickness of the spaced armour - 7 layers on the front, 3 elsewhere.
Therefore the weight should be "relatively" low.

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Somewhere in a forgotten corner of my site is a handy-dandy chart that would tell you the armor value of that corrugated iron.

I think it worked out as 10 points in V1.0 and 1 point in 2.x

[Olefin]

If you want to see improvised armor have you seen what Mexican druglords are doing in Mexico now as to making improvised "narco" tanks? Definitely something that someone could come up with in T2KU.

FYI as to corrugated iron - has anyone seen the Top Gear episode where they add corrugated sheets on top of a SUV to protect James when he approached an active volcano from overhead debris? The principle would be the same to protect someone in an improvised armored vehicle.

[mpipes]

While we are on the subject....anyone know what the armor stats would work out for a standard bank/payroll armor car?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by mpipes

While we are on the subject....anyone know what the armor stats would work out for a standard bank/payroll armor car?

Just a WAG -- HF3 HS2 HR2

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mpipes

While we are on the subject....anyone know what the armor stats would work out for a standard bank/payroll armor car?

To the best of my knowledge these are normally only good against pistol cartridges.

Larger more lucrative companies could have armored a part of the fleet, specifically those in large bank and asset transfers up to 7.62N AP.

[Olefin]

Interesting link here - http://www.armored-trucks.com/ballistics.php

company that builds armored trucks showing their ballistics protection ranging from level 1 (9mm semi-automatic hand gun) all the way up to level VII (5.56mm rifle, full metal jacket) - FYI 7.62 NATO cartridge is their level V

per their site - "This material is manufactured from start to finish to meet MIL-A-46100D and MIL-A-46177B Armor Plate as per the rigorous U.S. Military's Armor Specifications"

Paul - considering that bank armored cars are used in two canon modules - "A River Runs Thru It" and "Urban Guerrilla" - have you thought about adding an armored bank car section to your site - or is it there and I missed it?

here is another link - http://www.texasarmoring.com/armoring_levels.html - actually shows the weapons that the level of armor protection is made to defeat

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

To the best of my knowledge these are normally only good against pistol cartridges.

Larger more lucrative companies could have armored a part of the fleet, specifically those in large bank and asset transfers up to 7.62N AP.

We had armored cars from LENCO which came out of Canada as well as TEXAS ARMORING. The LENCO cars (both Ford E350 diesel vans) were rated at Level 5. This was supposed to stop multiple 30-06 armor piercing rounds. This is a "structural armored rating" that is a continuation of the NIJ ratings (which include level 1, level 2A, level 2, level 3A, level 3 and level 4. For more info, go to the National Institute of Justice's website).
The TEXAS ARMORING vehicles varied in size but were standardized at NIJ Level 3 armoring standards.
LOOMIS and BRINKS both seem to have standardized on NIJ level 3 standards as well. This is why the armored car that was used to rescue stranded officers in the "44 Minute Hollywood Shootout" was able to "shrug off" 7.62mm X 39mm rounds from the two perps.

During my work with the drug taskforce; we were able to procure NIJ level 3A soft panels that fit inside the doors of a number of "civilian" vehicles (cut to fit along the inside door panel and just bolt in). These included Ford, Chevy, Dodge and several other models. As I type this, I have NIJ Level 3A panels in the doors of my 2011 Ford Fusion as the price of just $1200 per panel. Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who wants to kill me....

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

As I type this, I have NIJ Level 3A panels in the doors of my 2011 Ford Fusion as the price of just $1200 per panel. Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who wants to kill me....

When I get my industrial sewing machine, for making my own tents and other gear, one of the things I wanted to look into is the rolls of Kevlar. Comes in large rolls like other cloth. I haven't seriously looked for sources or costs yet.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Interesting link here - http://www.armored-trucks.com/ballistics.php

company that builds armored trucks showing their ballistics protection ranging from level 1 (9mm semi-automatic hand gun) all the way up to level VII (5.56mm rifle, full metal jacket) - FYI 7.62 NATO cartridge is their level V

per their site - "This material is manufactured from start to finish to meet MIL-A-46100D and MIL-A-46177B Armor Plate as per the rigorous U.S. Military's Armor Specifications"

Paul - considering that bank armored cars are used in two canon modules - "A River Runs Thru It" and "Urban Guerrilla" - have you thought about adding an armored bank car section to your site - or is it there and I missed it?

here is another link - http://www.texasarmoring.com/armoring_levels.html - actually shows the weapons that the level of armor protection is made to defeat

Those charts all mention bullets with a lead core until the highest rating.

Since M855 5.56mm has a tungsten core and there is steel core 7.62Bloc on the market, this throws into question this schema.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Out of curiosity, where can you find the "A River Runs Thru It" module?
I can't recall seeing it anywhere and I can't find a reference for it anywhere so naturally I'm as curious as hell to read it!

[Legbreaker]

Never heard of it myself, and I've got at least two copies of everything.

[ArmySGT.]

Since this is a former tank factory...... What would it take to get the kilns and smelters online? It can do something that any garage cannot......Make actual armor and laminate armor at that from scratch.

[Legbreaker]

I think fuel would be the big issue. The equipment could probably be resurrected given enough time, but smelting steel requires a hell of a lot of coking coal.
Given the current state of the Ukraine, I don't see how that hurdle can be overcome by such a relatively small group.
http://defence.pk/threads/ukraine-co...donbas.371778/

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Years ago a group I was playing with added about ten layers of corrugated roofing iron to a light truck. Was more psychological than actual armour, but anything's better than nothing right?

Originally Posted by Targan

I LOL'd. Reminds me of my great-grandfather's tank.

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI as to corrugated iron - has anyone seen the Top Gear episode where they add corrugated sheets on top of a SUV to protect James when he approached an active volcano from overhead debris? The principle would be the same to protect someone in an improvised armored vehicle.

I've posted this before, my great-grandfather's "tank": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Semple_tank



My father's father's father, "Fighting Bob" Semple, was New Zealand's Minister of Public Works during WWII. The rest of the Empire couldn't spare New Zealand any armour, so great-granddad sat down with the heads of the Department of Works and designed and had built a "tank" based on a tractor chassis.

[Olefin]

Whoops got the wrong title in my head (actually thats the name of a movie I love ) - I meant to say A Rock In Troubled Waters from Challenge Magazine number 42 and it details much of New Jersey in 2001 including some of the MilGov and NJ state forces in the area including how they were using bank armored cars as armored transports much as New America was doing so in Urban Guerilla.

Sorry about getting that confused

Oh and the section I was referring to is the following:

2nd Cavalry Squadron, NJSM:
Fifty troopers carried by 10 armored bank trucks.These vehicles have an armor value of 8, and all have other characteristics of a two and a half ton truck. Each car has a radio and an M79, in addition to the passengers' small arms. They are responsible for road patrol in and around Cape May, north of the canal.

[Legbreaker]

1st ed stats obviously which equate to barely 1 point in 2.x. No idea about T:2013 - anyone?

[Olefin]

Like I said love to see Paul put some stats up on armored bank cars and the like for use. It does seem that they could be encountered by characters especially if they are playing in the US and Canada as either potential enemy vehicles or ones they can put into action themselves

Whats interesting is that Urban Guerrilla has three different kinds of armored cars mentioned but doesn't flesh them out as to what kind of armor value they have - meaning they left it up to the GM to come up with something if the characters encountered them.

The Peacekeeper vehicle was basically an armored truck - maybe that's the best way to look at bank armored cars

[WallShadow]

In Urban Guerrilla, the New American forces had modified bank trucks as armored vehicles

[Legbreaker]

Urban Guerilla is supposed to be a scouting mission only - specifically states that going toe to toe is very likely to end with very dead PCs. Therefore, not much need for the stats in an already crowded book.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Interestingly enough, many, many years ago (like some time in the very late 1990s kinda many years ago...) I tried to find armour values for bank cars and so on and I actually found it easier to get valid info on military armoured vehicles.
Seem they were a bit paranoid back then about criminals getting the specs (fair enough point) for cash transit vehicles and the like.

As for A Rock In Troubled Waters, yeah it's a good piece but I believe that, because it's a fan submission, it's considered as support material but isn't canon per se.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As for A Rock In Troubled Waters, yeah it's a good piece but I believe that, because it's a fan submission, it's considered as support material but isn't canon per se.

Agreed. Adds flavour and can be of assistance, but canon it ain't.

[Olefin]

Guys A Rock In Troubled Waters is canon not a fan submission - if its in Challenge Magazine its canon as far as I know - lots of what became the 2nd edition are also in Challenge Magazine

And Adam Giebel wrote seven pieces for Challenge Magazine - and that was hardly a fan submission magazine - it was official GDW material for a bunch of their products

so canon it is unless what you are saying is that every article in Challenge Magazine wasnt canon

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Guys A Rock In Troubled Waters is canon not a fan submission - if its in Challenge Magazine its canon as far as I know - lots of what became the 2nd edition are also in Challenge Magazine

And Adam Giebel wrote seven pieces for Challenge Magazine - and that was hardly a fan submission magazine - it was official GDW material for a bunch of their products

so canon it is unless what you are saying is that every article in Challenge Magazine wasnt canon

Challenge most definitely was a fan submission magazine, just like White Dwarf, Dragon, Dungeon, Pyramid and others.
That part in small print, right from the very first issue, that says "We welcome articles and illustrations for Challenge. Please inquire before submitting manuscripts..." makes it very clear that it was just as much a fan submission mag as it was for official material. It's probable that half the articles in Challenge were written by fans and not by GDW staff.
Unless it was actually written by one of the staff of GDW or it was a paid submission for a GDW game, then it is not canon.