Aircraft Armor

[pmulcahy11b]

Is it just me, or should the aircraft armor ratings be re-established?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Is it just me, or should the aircraft armor ratings be re-established?

Yes. Most military aircraft are described as having ballistic resistance but no such AV are listed in the Nautical/Aviation handbook. I would have to defer to my Airforce brethren about the actual resistance of various aircraft but I have some experience with a few types. For example;

I know from reference books that the A10 has a titanium "bathtub" that protects the pilot and that the rest of the aircraft is "reinforced against up to .50 caliber AP rounds." A pilot of one training at Ft Drum told me this is true (even the cockpit windscreen). That means that the "bathtub" should offer protection against 30mm rounds (per Modern Air Combat) at AV16. and at least AV9 (.50 cal damage from a Berret M82) everywhere else.

The Apache is supposedly protected against 20mm rounds everywhere but the rotors. This would be an AV10.

The Blackhawk is supposed to be resistant to .30 Caliber rounds (an AV of 4)

The CH47's we used in Africa had a NIJ Level 3A upgrade kit consisting of soft panels in the cargo compartment (an AV of 1, if you consider that PASGT is also NIJ Level 3A). I don't know if the crew were protected though.

The armor values in Twilight are kind of messed up. I do know that an NCO who served in Vietnam told us after watching a demonstration of Ranger Body armor with the Aluminum Oxide plates defeat a .30 Cal round; that Ranger armor (which would have an AV4 in game) protected better than an M113's armor did. Technology at work, I guess.

[Olefin]

I am not sure the game designers knew much about aircraft - as has been stated the armor values are definitely wrong. For another they keep mentioning aviation gas for planes - but modern jets don't use aviation gas.

Sure if you are using propeller planes or old WWII planes then you need avgas - i.e. if you are reduced to using armed Cessna 172's for instance

but jet planes need jet fuel - which is a completely different fuel - the US would have switched completely over to JP-8 by the war start - and since that is the fuel they also use for the Army if there are any refineries still working you would figured that MilGov would have them making JP-8 if they are making fuel - not avgas for sure

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I am not sure the game designers knew much about aircraft - as has been stated the armor values are definitely wrong. For another they keep mentioning aviation gas for planes - but modern jets don't use aviation gas.

Sure if you are using propeller planes or old WWII planes then you need avgas - i.e. if you are reduced to using armed Cessna 172's for instance

but jet planes need jet fuel - which is a completely different fuel - the US would have switched completely over to JP-8 by the war start - and since that is the fuel they also use for the Army if there are any refineries still working you would figured that MilGov would have them making JP-8 if they are making fuel - not avgas for sure

When I joined the Army, in the early 1990's we were still using DF-2 as it is the preferred fuel for the Tanks, it was not tell late 90's (99 I think) that the AF forced us to switch to JP-8. For us the biggest issue was we can no longer us the on board smoke generator as it would start on fire with the JP-8.

[Draq]

I worked at DFW airport fueling planes for a little bit, a few years ago. I too noticed the fuel error. Interestingly, when fueling planes, you have to convert from gallons to pounds, modified by the fuel temperature, since fuel is less dense the warmer it gets. And be sure to balance the wings or there will be big problems. I do miss fueling those old MD-80s for $10.40/hr. But the 767 and Airbuses, and having to do four people's work due to greatly reduced staff for 12 hr a day, wasn't so fun.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by CDAT

When I joined the Army, in the early 1990's we were still using DF-2 as it is the preferred fuel for the Tanks, it was not tell late 90's (99 I think) that the AF forced us to switch to JP-8. For us the biggest issue was we can no longer us the on board smoke generator as it would start on fire with the JP-8.

they went to the JP-8 to save money by only buying one kind of fuel - and could see that happening even earlier with the war start - i.e. shipping is at a premium so conversion to one fuel standard would happen even earlier

[Sanjuro]

The whole thing about alcohol-based fuels not having enough specific energy capacity to power an aircraft is also dubious, to say the least. Even by the early 90s a piston-engine aeroplane had flown the Atlantic on alcohol fuel, and the rule of thumb for jets (including turboprops) is if it's runny and it burns, you can power a jet engine with it.
The problem, so far, with alcohol-based fuels is their low boiling points- unless you fit pressurised fuel systems, which will add a lot of weight and complexity, at high altitudes your fuel will boil away. Lower temperatures will not help, as the ethanol/methanol will boil much more readily with decrease of air pressure.

[mpipes]

The work around in Twilight terms is to mix alcohol with diesel to come up with a fuel mixture you can use in jets and turboprops (I think a 50/50 or 60/40 mixture of alcohol/diesel would work). Pure diesel might work at low altitude, but it will play hell with clogging the injectors. Kerosene will power most jet engines in a pinch.

Conventional AvG powered props would be a lot trickier, but I think a 90%-70% mixture of alcohol mixed with something like benzene or maybe kerosene might work. However, I think you could get away with alcohol at low altitude and strict maintenance procedure. Airplane engines are a lot more finicky and unless the octane rating is correct, you will have an engine failure.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by mpipes

... Airplane engines are a lot more finicky and unless the octane rating is correct, you will have an engine failure.

That's the "interesting" part for the PCs, they face plenty of daily problems but this one adds a really risky challenge. If you screw up the fuel in your truck, you just roll to a stop but if you screw up the fuel in your aircraft, you're stuck inside a brick suspended in mid-air... well, for a short time anyway

[Olefin]

well not quite a brick - but definitely a short term glider at best

[unkated]

To back up to the beginning, which aircraft in teh game t=do you want to shoot at, and in what manner?


For example, shooting SAMs or a Stinger at a jet aircraft is one thing; I'd suggest that the variables of the attack might not require dealing with armor - the key points are is the aircraft shot down, and can the crew escape, most of which does not entail dealing with the minutiae of aircraft armor, subsystems, and secondary explosions. The titanium bathtub is a side issue, and can be handled as a positive modifier for the pilot's survival.

OTOH, if you want to model air combat, I can suggest a few games; use those and handle any aftermath later...

Shooting a helicopter that just rose over the ridge a few hundred yards away, with Spetznaz (or Delta Force) hanging off of it are another matter, and could and should be dealt with more like a truck or APC.

So, what are you looking to resolve?

Uncle Ted

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by mpipes

The work around in Twilight terms is to mix alcohol with diesel to come up with a fuel mixture you can use in jets and turboprops (I think a 50/50 or 60/40 mixture of alcohol/diesel would work). Pure diesel might work at low altitude, but it will play hell with clogging the injectors. Kerosene will power most jet engines in a pinch.

Conventional AvG powered props would be a lot trickier, but I think a 90%-70% mixture of alcohol mixed with something like benzene or maybe kerosene might work. However, I think you could get away with alcohol at low altitude and strict maintenance procedure. Airplane engines are a lot more finicky and unless the octane rating is correct, you will have an engine failure.

JP's are related to kerosene, kind of the rich cousin. The Mike Hammer movie with Armand Asante, "I the Jury," shows him filling a friend's SUV with whiskey and mothballs to escape a hit team. It's Hollywood, but still neat.