Resistweave Cloth Coveralls

[nuke11]

I've been researching body armor, helmets, and ballistic inserts and am having a hard time with a uniform made out of this material. It is most likely from the aramid family of fabric, but when used as a uniform this is where the problems begin for the coveralls (don't like the coverall idea either).

Most, if not all types of body armor must dissipate the kinetic energy over a wide surface area with lots of padding and multiple layers of Kevlar.

How is a uniform made out of this stuff working? (coverall is around an NIJ I)The current trend in testing of ballistic resistant uniforms are soft Kevlar insert pads within the uniform itself. These are NIJ Level II with at least 24 layers of Kevlar per pad.

[kato13]

I am not sure of the physics exactly, but my assumption was that the fibers were in some ways similar to a super cooled liquid (which will rapidly freeze when disrupted).

So you have a polymer which is totally flexible, but when it is sharply shocked in some way the outer layer will stiffen and the inner layer will convert (and expand) into something like Aerogel.

It is a stretch but it is the best I could come up with.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by kato13

I am not sure of the physics exactly, but my assumption was that the fibers were in some ways similar to a super cooled liquid (which will rapidly freeze when disrupted).

So you have a polymer which is totally flexible, but when it is sharply shocked in some way the outer layer will stiffen and the inner layer will convert (and expand) into something like Aerogel.

It is a stretch but it is the best I could come up with.

Interesting idea, very interesting.

[mmartin798]

The most likely way it works is by infusing the fibers with a shear thickening fluid, with is basically a non-newtonian fluid. This is real world work that is being used to make kevlar more resistant to knives and shivs. Work has also been done putting this gel in a vest and stopping a round of unspecified caliber at speeds up to 1400 f/s.

Non-newtonian fluids rapidly change from a flowing liquid to almost solid when stress is applied. In a resistweave material, this would serve to spread the impact over a large area assuming the fabric is something like a kevlar or other ballistic material.

[.45cultist]

I use resistweave utilities with velcro and snaps like chemsuits.

[ArmySGT.]

I use the Air Crewman uniform as my basis for MP project fatigues.

No I don't go with the coveralls unless I am playing a straight MP rules game.

Otherwise players get....... PASGT vest and Helmet..... Second chance IIIA body armor and one ballistic shield for MARS per team.

Boots have the spike and nail proof ceramic inserts.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The most likely way it works is by infusing the fibers with a shear thickening fluid, with is basically a non-newtonian fluid. This is real world work that is being used to make kevlar more resistant to knives and shivs. Work has also been done putting this gel in a vest and stopping a round of unspecified caliber at speeds up to 1400 f/s.

Non-newtonian fluids rapidly change from a flowing liquid to almost solid when stress is applied. In a resistweave material, this would serve to spread the impact over a large area assuming the fabric is something like a kevlar or other ballistic material.

Would there be enough fluid within the fiber for it to thicken enough to slow and dissipate a fast moving projectile? I don't know a lot about these fluids but what would the material feel like? And would it need to be kept in a certain temperature range?

[mmartin798]

I can't find the video which was impregnating kevlar fibers with this kind of liquid to make them much more resistant to being stabbed with a knife. But here is one that shows the gel insert for a vest that illustrates the ability to stop a bullet. If i find the one about the kevlar and knives, which is more likely what resistweave would be like, I will post it.

http://www.sciencealert.com/liquid-a...er-than-kevlar

Here is a link to a journal article about it. One highlight from the article is that an army research study found that 4 layers of STF impregnated kevlar was as effective as 14 layer of untreated kevlar. So as far as how it moves, would not be too bad.

http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/fall-2013/liquid-body-armor

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I can't find the video which was impregnating kevlar fibers with this kind of liquid to make them much more resistant to being stabbed with a knife. But here is one that shows the gel insert for a vest that illustrates the ability to stop a bullet. If i find the one about the kevlar and knives, which is more likely what resistweave would be like, I will post it.

http://www.sciencealert.com/liquid-a...er-than-kevlar

Here is a link to a journal article about it. One highlight from the article is that an army research study found that 4 layers of STF impregnated kevlar was as effective as 14 layer of untreated kevlar. So as far as how it moves, would not be too bad.

http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/fall-2013/liquid-body-armor

Ok, it seems that a 45% reduction in layers of material can be achieved when dipped in STF.

So if we take NIJ I for an AV of 6, that would be around 9 layers of Kevlar 29. If we reduce this by 45% that would be 4 layers. Now Kevlar 29 is about .61 mm thick when woven into a cloth. So that would be about 2.45 mm for 4 layers of Kevlar 29, too thick for a uniform, but we have other options to look at now.

Kevlar 159 (correctional fabric Kevlar) which is .18 mm thick when woven into a cloth and then Kevlar LT (comfort Kevlar) which is .15 mm thick when woven into a cloth http://www.kevlarsupply.com/kevlar-fabrics/

So looking at this information we could be using a combination of say 5 or 6 layers of Kevlar 159 and LT to come up with a uniform that is about 1.25 mm, which I think would be around the same as the current CORDURA NYCO fabric (need to research this more).

So I think we do have a technical solution to what Resistweave could be, but then this opens up the question of layered clothing, undershirt, shirt and jacket an AV of around 14

[ArmySGT.]

I think we need to consider wear and abuse in the resistance factor. Wearing on a daily basis and a weekly wash (if possible!) are going to significantly impact the ballistic protection of a set of coveralls.

[cosmicfish]

Just as a quick note, TMP is full of technologies for which we do not have any current explanation. Is the goal in this thread to reduce resistweave to something that current science can at least roughly explain, or is the goal to provide a characterization of the material that would allow for a more detailed usage? Because the first sacrifices game effect in order to gain an explanation while the second sacrifices explanation in order to gain a game effect.

[mmartin798]

My leanings are more like Sgt's. The description of a cache often lists replacement coveralls. This means they can and do wear out in some fashion, there is a need for extra coveralls (but why call them replacements then), or the team members take them off and forget where they put them. The latter two seem less likely than the first. So, how the coveralls work give some insight as to the degree of wear to expect.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

So, how the coveralls work give some insight as to the degree of wear to expect.

I understand that, but it is still fiat. Resistweave is a fictional supermaterial that is already clearly unlike any existing material or any material on our current technological horizon. It is suitable for coveralls (and presumably similar outerwear), it provides a certain level of protection, and it is provided without any information about wearing out other than the existence of replacements (which exist for literally everything).

Rather than guessing about which cutting edge technologies might be impossibly twisted to get something that isn't quite resistweave, why not just hammer out some rules and see if they sound reasonable?

For example:

Resistweave (and other personal protective gear, which would reasonably just be made of more layers of this wonder material!) loses one SP every 2 years or for every 5 points of penetrating E-Factor (meaning that SP 7 armor hit by an E-Factor weapon would see 3 points penetrate). Keeping track of initial damage, half of it can be repaired at the expense of ten minutes and one patch (standard issue) per penetrating point.

How does that look? It make no suppositions on what the material actually is because anything that exists even on the horizon would seem to contradict the game effect, but it still provides a framework for game play.

[bobcat]

the reason that the resistweave uniforms need replaced isn't ballistic degradation it's CBRN contamination. remember the mission was supposed to happen 5 years after the boom which means lots of stray fallout and undispersed chemical and biological contamination all over the place. if you're going to be working with survivors and don't want to bury half of them you need to replace the uniforms frequently enough to not track contamination all over the place.

[mmartin798]

That may be part of the reason, but it certainly is not clear. 3rd edition states the coveralls are water and gas resistant while 4th edition only states water resistance. Though you are very correct that there is most likely, in either case, an activated carbon inner lining to mitigate casual contact with harmful substances when not wearing a hazard suit. That would give a reason to replace them regularly.

[dragoon500ly]

Always had issues with a set of armor/NBC coveralls as daily wear. Wear and tear will always leave the NBC side compromised when you must need it, and as anyone's who has spent any time at MOPP Level 3 can tell you, it is hot, sweaty, and damned uncomfortable to spend the day in.

I go with a set of BDUs in resist-weave, reinforced with a vest and helmet when needed. Players are issued NBC clothing in sealed pouches for when it is necessary.

One final note for coveralls as everyday wear, when moving by vehicle over rough ground, living on a diet of dehydrated rations and chemically purified water, with some fresh local veggies and maybe that rabbit you shot earlier, your digestive tract is going to become quite active, Montezuma's Revenge, the Marine Quick Step, the Tanker's Trot, you get the idea. Now, just picture our suffering hero, wearing his coveralls, his web gear and weapon, unassing his vehicle, ducking into the local undergrowth and trying to get undressed for that emergency download...

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Just as a quick note, TMP is full of technologies for which we do not have any current explanation. Is the goal in this thread to reduce resistweave to something that current science can at least roughly explain, or is the goal to provide a characterization of the material that would allow for a more detailed usage? Because the first sacrifices game effect in order to gain an explanation while the second sacrifices explanation in order to gain a game effect.

I have always played TMP science as a "Handwave" type of existence. I mean, fusion power, resist weave, lasers, Med Bed, med kit, CBR, cryo sleep, etc., etc., etc. Heck the whole idea of TMP working like a massive Manhattan Project is WAY out there.

So why play? Because it is FUN!!! I am a role play geek from WAY back. (V1 D&D) I can imagine the shock and horror of waking up in a freeze tube and discovering that something went FUBAR. What do you mean it's 150+ years AFTER we were supposed to wake up??!!??!! And no Prime Base. And no support teams. And nothing else we were expecting. So let's lock and load, roll out and see what we CAN do!

My $0.02

Mike

[mmartin798]

I am good with a healthy dose of handwavium in my games. Black sphere generators, PGMP-13 and FGMP-15, and even the gauss rifle require generous doses of it to take items from Traveler. Morrow Project is a little different.
Here, we talk about technologies that are not just flights of fancy or on the fringe of theoretical science.

We understand the physics of fusion, non-Newtonian fluids and the like. I don't have a problem with a 1 MW fusion reactor that fits in the backseat and trunk of my car. I do have a problem with the neutrons from a D-D reaction being stopped by shielding in such a small package. He3-He3 solves that and I use a great deal of handwavium in finding source of He3 and a fusion reactor to use it. Likewise liquid body armors exist and have some great advantages over Kevlar plates. A major disadvantage for some is being much heavier than Kevlar plate of comparable protection. Add some handwavium and we can imagine that there is a shear thickening fluid that uses advanced nanostructured silica particles that lock and unlock with shear forces that is much lighter and in a fluid that allow them to stay in suspension for 4 months. So now we have fusion power vehicles and resistweave coveralls.

Cosmicfish asked what the goal was and had two outcomes. My rationale is for a third. If something happens that is not described through game descriptions and is not something common, I need to have an understanding of the basics of how it might work to make a reasonable ruling. Because we all know what happens when a round strikes a rifle and damages the receiver. Gun will not function. But because I know a rifle is a long metal tube with a serviceable handle, if my player wants to use it as a club it would function as one, even though this use is not listed as a game effect. This is the kind of understanding I want with resistweave. Afterall, why not use a layer of resistweave sandwiched between leather on the boots? Resistweave coveralls have AV B7 NB4, but boots only have AV B4 NB4. Real world body armor works best with a firm fit against the body. Too loose or tight and it sacrifices some measure of protection. Are the coveralls loose fitting or like a spandex body suit if fit matters. Granted, these questions have no immediate affect to any game I run. But trying to figure these kind of things out helps for unusual circumstances and I need to make a ruling.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Always had issues with a set of armor/NBC coveralls as daily wear. Wear and tear will always leave the NBC side compromised when you must need it, and as anyone's who has spent any time at MOPP Level 3 can tell you, it is hot, sweaty, and damned uncomfortable to spend the day in.

Yep, this should add a level of fatigue, a level of difficulty, and slow movement in physical tasks....... such as movement to contact through the woods.

In winter not so much, but come summer the TMP members are going to keel over with heat exhaustion in the first kilometer of movement.

Unfortunately, just like real life, this leans toward a tendency to drive a vehicle all the way to the objective.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Yep, this should add a level of fatigue, a level of difficulty, and slow movement in physical tasks....... such as movement to contact through the woods.

In winter not so much, but come summer the TMP members are going to keel over with heat exhaustion in the first kilometer of movement.

Unfortunately, just like real life, this leans toward a tendency to drive a vehicle all the way to the objective.

It's the little things that make a team's life so...interesting!

[bobcat]

one thing i would mention is that while most current MOPP gear is a pain to do any work in there has been significant improvements in what could actually be deployed. and while congress would never approve gear that would have to be regularly replaced that costs a few hundred thousand dollars each who's to say that Bruce didn't procure a working nanotech 3d printer or some such handwavium to equip his people with the best without making each set of coveralls a budgetary line item.

thread made from carbon nanotubes filled with a non-newtonian fluid could be produced in such and then tightly woven into fabric that would be in layers with some kind of microporous material that would neutralize vapor based chemical weapons and block biological/liquid agents. this could then be layered over something to allow air to circulate and moisture to be drawn away from the skin to keep the wearer more comfortable. add in decently made undergarments and you have a working set of CBRN gear that people can actually do something useful while wearing.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by bobcat

one thing i would mention is that while most current MOPP gear is a pain to do any work in there has been significant improvements in what could actually be deployed. and while congress would never approve gear that would have to be regularly replaced that costs a few hundred thousand dollars each who's to say that Bruce didn't procure a working nanotech 3d printer or some such handwavium to equip his people with the best without making each set of coveralls a budgetary line item.

Nothing wrong with a handwavium, PD can make it as easy or as hard as they feel comfortable with.

Still, NBC warfare is nasty, the protective gear provides little or no comfort, it's designed to keep you alive, long enough to leave the AO alive and keep you going until you can complete decontamination. IMHO, anything that gets added to the suit, requires additional maintenance, batteries, etc.etc.etc.. There comes a point when adding the latest bell and whistle becomes downright dangerous to the user. Better to Keep It Simple!

[bobcat]

that said though i doubt whoever settled on coveralls for this ever had to wear nomex coveralls in an armored car for any significant amount of time. let alone some kind of futuristic body armor/MOPP suit coveralls. i just have the teams wear BDU's made from resistweave.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by bobcat

that said though i doubt whoever settled on coveralls for this ever had to wear nomex coveralls in an armored car for any significant amount of time. let alone some kind of futuristic body armor/MOPP suit coveralls. i just have the teams wear BDU's made from resistweave.

What? You don't care for MRE / T rations / dubious pogey bait gastric eruptions wafting up through your collar?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

What? You don't care for MRE / T rations / dubious pogey bait gastric eruptions wafting up through your collar?

HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I is retired, time for a young one to enjoy.

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

What? You don't care for MRE / T rations / dubious pogey bait gastric eruptions wafting up through your collar?

if i wanted to be masked all the time i'd have asked for a CBRN billet at meps.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I is retired, time for a young one to enjoy.

Think of the memories!

When did I eat that? What did I eat? Oh, why did I eat that! Atleast I feel warmer! T-rat egg loaf is evil! Chili con Carne de Diablo! Three more days until a hot shower...... yay.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by bobcat

if i wanted to be masked all the time i'd have asked for a CBRN billet at meps.

You still can!

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by bobcat

that said though i doubt whoever settled on coveralls for this ever had to wear nomex coveralls in an armored car for any significant amount of time. let alone some kind of futuristic body armor/MOPP suit coveralls. i just have the teams wear BDU's made from resistweave.

That's what our games have always used, BDU style uniforms. Most of the time we don't even use resistweave, just body armor and helmets. We always thought that this was a game plot device to help the players survive long enough thru combat. If you look at it, the combat rules are pretty lethal.

I have been researching ballistic protected BDU's but they involve small soft armor pads covering strategic points of the body that add more weight to the uniform.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Interesting, one can see a lot of the ideas the desginers came up with.

Full body armour that can make even rifle bullets almost endurable, miracle handheld medical devices that make bullet wounds that would cripple if not kill most soldiers.

And even if not cripple certainly render incapable for months, which is pretty much the same thing if you're half a dozen adventurers in a hostile world on their own.

So if you're ditching the unrealistic armour and medical supplies what happens when in an encounter with Krell, one of your team members gets his knee cap blown off. Do you leave him with a rifle to hold the hordes off and a mess revolver for when he's about to be over run?

Or does the doc do the decent thing?

Makes for a much darker world.