Railway campaign

[rcaf_777]

Just wondering if anyone has ideas for this? I am looking at the Going Home Module for ideas, but I would be intrested in ideas for

1. The Setting IE which rail line to use? US or Europe?

2. Premis for PC conducting this campaign (Why are they there?)

3. Encouters, adventures Bad Guys, Good Guys

Thanks for the help.

[Legbreaker]

To my understanding the US rail system is in a pretty poor state already isn't it? The war would wreak absolute havoc upon it making it probably worse than the European network even though tanks, artillery, etc have caused untold damage to the lines, yard, etc.
How many lines are in North America (including Canada and Mexico) as well? Is there the same density as in Europe which allows for alternate route to be used without going hundreds, or even thousands of kilometres out of the way?
Even with the several years of warfare, I think the European network is more suitable for roleplaying. The US network would probably need a fairly large group of workers to repair sections (especially bridges, tunnels, and yards in and around nuked cities) instead of the train being able to find a way around. The resources required in the US (especially in rails, sleepers, and bridge materials) is likely to be far beyond the capability of PCs.

[Adm.Lee]

Actually, by the late '90s, American railroads were recovering very well from the dark days of the 60s & 70s.

Unless you're out West, rail lines are still dense enough that one may only have to go dozens of kilometers out of your way, not hundreds.

Both European or American railnets will need lots of care from combat or nukings. I'd say the Polish & western Soviet tracks would be in the worst shape, since the most intense combat happened there, as well as air action against rail lines.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Actually, by the late '90s, American railroads were recovering very well from the dark days of the 60s & 70s.

Fair enough. Doesn't quite fit with the T2K timeline though.

[Brother in Arms]

For years I have been contemplating running a game or writing a story with a Rail workers truck that can ride the rails or ride on the road. Just 3 players one truck a little gear keep it really simple and thus very difficult think of all the potential obstacles and troubles that could result in a campaign like this.

cheers!
BIA

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Fair enough. Doesn't quite fit with the T2K timeline though.

Please expand this

[rcaf_777]

Here what I was thinking

PC group in one or two hi-rail trucks, with a still to brew fuel. They are sent out from a port of dis embarkation to recon head of work parties to check the condition of rails, rail bridges ect. Milgov is planing to use this rail line to move troops and equipment to station X which is now a Army Outpost.

Put in a few NPC of rail workers, or US Army Engineer Officers or medic.

And Away you go

Hey man it worked for the walking dead

[LT. Ox]

sort of putting the Cross hairs on your people.
smile, just follow the dotted line to weapons and gear!
LOts of good images to view and places to go.
Have Fun.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Please expand this

Well the war starts in the mid 1990's so the majority of manpower and materials would be going towards that rather then improving civilian infrastructure as it did IRL. Some work may have commenced, but quickly halted as the war kicks in.
We can see from the timelines (all three canon versions) the war was in full swing very quickly too - very little build up time. The only units left in the US were a few assigned to civil defence plus a handful waiting for shipping to come available to take them to Europe, the Middle East, or Korea.
We also know that the first nukes to hit the US were in November 1997 which absolutely would have halted any further work which may have been slowly proceeding.

Re the walking dead, in that you haven't had nuclear war tearing the place up. Most infrastructure is still in one piece (mostly) and, provided the manpower and skills are available, generally repairable. Zombies don't tend to rip up rail lines, destroy entire cities, and commit acts of sabotage...

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well the war starts in the mid 1990's so the majority of manpower and materials would be going towards that rather then improving civilian infrastructure as it did IRL. Some work may have commenced, but quickly halted as the war kicks in.
We can see from the timelines (all three canon versions) the war was in full swing very quickly too - very little build up time. The only units left in the US were a few assigned to civil defence plus a handful waiting for shipping to come available to take them to Europe, the Middle East, or Korea.
We also know that the first nukes to hit the US were in November 1997 which absolutely would have halted any further work which may have been slowly proceeding.

Re the walking dead, in that you haven't had nuclear war tearing the place up. Most infrastructure is still in one piece (mostly) and, provided the manpower and skills are available, generally repairable. Zombies don't tend to rip up rail lines, destroy entire cities, and commit acts of sabotage...

You do know that most railroads in the us are civilian run right?...not sure why or how troops come into play

And are you saying that the us military would not use any rail before the war to move heavy equipment? Hmmmm can't see that happen

What do you think the state of the rail system is prior to the war?

[Legbreaker]

Troops come into play because of conscription. Also, you're going to see the military buying up all sorts of equipment all of which will need raw materials such as steel to make. With military age men and women being drafted there's also corresponding pressure on the factories, etc for manpower.

Yes, of course the military would be using rail when and were possible, just as they've done almost since the first railway track was laid. This again will likely have an impact on other areas with rolling stock tied up for shifting tanks, etc rather than raw materials and finished goods.

If the war was expected to drag on then yes, investment would have been made in transport infrastructure, but we already know that the first six months or so NATO was on the advance with the Pact barely able to slow them down until the China issue was effectively resolved by use of nukes. Until that stage the railways had obviously been up to the task required of them as the books state the units held back in the US were there because of a lack of available shipping, not rolling stock.

With June 1997 comes the destruction of the "last major naval fleet-in-being". At this point you can be damn sure all available steel would be redirected to the shipyards, as would a great deal of manpower. It's very unlikely any shipping would have been completed though before November stopped everything.

I don't know what the state of the US rail system was, I'm not there and never have been, but it's fairly common knowledge it wasn't in good condition. I also don't know when IRL upgrade works commenced, nor how far along they were by 1996/97. There are plenty of people on here better placed than me to comment on that. However, the points I've made above about pressures on manpower and resources apply equally to all nations around the world, although the Soviets may have been in a slightly better position as they'd been at war a bit longer and their economy was already on a war footing.

[kato13]

Some information I found.

I decided to look up derailment rates as while collisions and fatalities make news, derailments are probably the most disruptive traffic wise.

The US was certainly out of it's worst phase (derailment wise) by the time of the twilight war.


source
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/13/8598703...t-train-safety


In 2001 (the earliest year I can find comparisons)
the US had 1.21 main line derailments per million train miles traveled.
Australia had 1.84 (Had to convert kilometers to miles)
Canada (CPR) had 1.44
Canada (CN) had 1.76

European reporting that I have found focuses on fatalities not total derailments so I could not include those numbers.

Sources
http://railtec.illinois.edu/articles...kan%202004.pdf

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/28354/rr_2008007.pdf

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents...ty/TranSys.pdf


The US does have its weaknesses. A greater percentage of derailments seem to be due to infrastructure failure, which could lead to longer term delays in recovery of a line. The long empty spaces in our country also lend themselves to sabotage. I'm my game world Spetsnaz are extremely active in rail sabotage as they see that as the way to disrupt the US military without direct confrontation (allowing for a greater number of actions).

However from an infrastructure standpoint I don't see the US being radically different from other nations as to say that it is significantly more likely to have a breakdown (as it might have been in the late 70s early 80s).

[Legbreaker]

Yes, we know the KGB were active in the US so it stands to reason they'd be carrying out acts of sabotage from the moment the US entered the war in Europe. This could have been as overt as blowing up bridges or as covert as simply moving a decimal point on a spreadsheet.
I'd expect most of the sabotage would petter out after November 1997 as the agents realise they're not going home any time soon and need to make the best of a crappy situation. Only the hard core agents would keep up operations I'd think.

[kato13]

I suppose I should clarify that when I say "In my game world" I am including all real world (going back to 1972) and game timeline variations and additions to the printed works. It does not necessarily mean what is happening at the moment a game with players start.

Spetsnaz(GRU)/KGB could still be disrupting rail lines in 2000, but I expect activity would be reduced to almost nil after troops and material were no longer being sent overseas (mid to late 1998?) and virtually every rail line is seeing under 10% of their prewar use. I do see some possibilities in areas like Colorado Springs where I am assuming MILGOV would still be using rail lines to some productive degree.

[Legbreaker]

That makes sense, but I wonder how many would continue when it became obvious (at least locally) that there was no effective US government to carry on the fight. Without Comms it'd be up to the individual cells to decide, and as time dragged on without contact from HQ, justifying further action which could harm their own continual survival, would become harder and harder. By 2000 it's likely only limited actions in support of those soviet units in Texas and Alaska would be ongoing.

[Targan]

I'm sure that there's at least one named Spetznaz unit operating in the US (I thought it was on the east coast too) in one of the modules or Challenge mini-modules but for the life of me I haven't been able to find it with a quick search today. There's definitely one group of Soviet soldiers operating on the East Coast however.

*POTENTIAL SPOILERS*

-- SPOILER - highlight text to view --
I did find the Challenge mini-module Strangers in a Strange Land (page 14, Challenge Magazine issue 48) which is about Soviet Group Medved, 112 Warsaw Pact soldiers and officers who were broken out of a POW camp at Graterford Prison in Pennsylvania in a well-orchestrated KGB operation on December 5th, 1997. Originally there were 400 of them and they were supposed to make their way in small groups to a rendezvous point near Philadelphia then cross the Delaware and then hide in the New Jersey marshlands until submarines could evacuate them in January 1998.

The evacuation never happened, and in any case many of the POWs deserted and disappeared into the countryside as soon as they broke out. The ones that did follow orders were organised into 4 x 25-man platoons and a HQ element. They managed to keep things very successfully on the down-low and were still operating at the time of Going Home but they're very short on firearms and ammo and don't have much in the way of heavy weapons or vehicles. They're led by a Soviet Army Colonel, formerly of the 5th Tank Division.
-- END OF SPOILER --

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, of course the military would be using rail when and were possible, just as they've done almost since the first railway track was laid. This again will likely have an impact on other areas with rolling stock tied up for shifting tanks, etc rather than raw materials and finished goods.

Short-term, this is good for the railroads, that's a lot of traffic that they wouldn't have had prior to 1995. I'm sure they've long had plans gathering dust on how to move military cargos (and they would have had practice in the 2nd Gulf War, 1990-91). That could have shown whatever shortcomings were existent after the recovery of the 1980s.

If the war was expected to drag on then yes, investment would have been made in transport infrastructure,

Were I in Wall Street, rail is one place I would be sure to invest in in 1995-96, pumping money into infrastructure improvements.

as the books state the units held back in the US were there because of a lack of available shipping, not rolling stock.

Agreed. I attended a lecture once comparing US rail performance in WW1 (an embarrassment at best, nearly screwed the war effort at worst) to WW2 (came through with flying colors). Lessons were learned, and I don't think that would be too far gone, again with the example of 1990-91 available.

It's very unlikely any shipping would have been completed though before November stopped everything.

Ah, steel production. Now we're hitting at a weak spot in the US economy in the 1990s-- not all of it's gone overseas, but I bet a lot sure did. (I don't live in the Rust Belt, but near it, so it was hard to miss that in the news.) Prices and availability for rolling stock and rails get hit, and it all goes pear-shaped after the TDM, anyway.

However, the points I've made above about pressures on manpower and resources apply equally to all nations around the world, although the Soviets may have been in a slightly better position as they'd been at war a bit longer and their economy was already on a war footing.

I'd think they might have been in a slightly worse position, as their network (IMO) had less slack in it to cover for the wear & tear of extra-ordinary usage, especially wastage as so much stuff had to go longer distances to get to the Far Eastern Fronts.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Here what I was thinking

PC group in one or two hi-rail trucks, with a still to brew fuel. They are sent out from a port of dis embarkation to recon head of work parties to check the condition of rails, rail bridges ect. Milgov is planing to use this rail line to move troops and equipment to station X which is now a Army Outpost.

How about things like these? Speeders are light and usually gas-powered, and there are clubs of owners who gather to travel abandoned rail lines. Thus, one could probably find a cluster of them in some major city, by asking around.




Which brings up the colorful NPC being a railfan like myself (or my dad & his friends), who knows a lot about a line, its history, and even some technical specifics.

[swaghauler]

The nukes hardly scratched the US railway system. No nukes in Kansas City, none in the southern Chicago area bordering Indiana. Buffalo and Pittsburgh weren't hit. New York wasn't directly hit. The Russians were sloppy when it came to "disabling" America's railway system. There are 4 major rail lines running right through the continental US East to West and north of the Mason-Dixon line, and 4 more East to West rail lines south of it. Three of these lines would have survived the attacks listed in the version 2.2 strike list. There are also several "secondary lines" connecting these primary "high speed" routes. Crawford County PA where I live actually operates a "spur line" that's nearly 50 miles in length. All of these lines are made from Class 4 Rails built for 150 car high max (maximum loading per car) load outs. The reason these lines exist is to supply critical bulk resources to various entities in the US. Our northern rail lines carry primarily iron ore, salt and coal. Southern rail lines carry mostly bulk crops, lumber and oil. In the mid 90's after the newly established (in 1991) Commercial Drivers Licensing Act created large shortages of qualified truck drivers, the trains began carrying fully loaded semi trailers. These trailers would then be "distributed" by regional truck drivers. This pattern continues to this day. The rail lines are so critical to a US military operation that huge resource levels are devoted to them in a time of war. Here is the reason why from a commercial truck driver. If I am tasked with hauling an M1 Abrams from a depot to a port, I must get an oversized load permit because of what my truck AND the tank weighs. At about 54 tons for the first generation M1, and 16 tons for the truck and trailer, you are looking at about 70 tons in total weight. The vast majority of US highway bridges are rated at 35 tons for straight trucks and 70 tons for combination vehicles (this is known as "bridge weight" by the DOT). I would be limited to about 20% of US highways with a load this heavy and I'm hauling ONE tank. A train could haul 100 to 200 such tanks on a single train with 2 to four linked locomotives over ANY Class 4 Rail line in the US. At an average speed of 50 mph for a freight train. This kind of heavy lift capability makes the rail lines indispensable for military deployments. Once the Exchange occurs and the trains stop running, those lines become no less valuable. Rail bridges are built for massive loads and would be the last bridges to collapse from lack of maintenance. Many rail spurs travel into areas that are hard to reach by roads, ending at lumber mills, coal mines and other remote locations that contain heavy industry. Even "abandoned" rail lines often offer the best travel in difficult terrain like mountains, woods or jungle (as my Christian relief workers found out). There would be many "improvised transports" on rail lines all over the world after the exchange.
For ideas on the types of vehicles you might find running the rails and doing repairs, just check out Appalachian Railcars Inc. or HARSCO railway Transports Inc. They have various vehicles for rent or for sale on their websites.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The nukes hardly scratched the US railway system. No nukes in Kansas City, none in the southern Chicago area bordering Indiana. Buffalo and Pittsburgh weren't hit. New York wasn't directly hit. The Russians were sloppy when it came to "disabling" America's railway system.

I wouldn't be so quick there. We only know of the larger warhead - the smaller ones (less than 0.5KT from memory) are no listed in the books except for a very few exceptions.
Just how big a blast would it take to nuke a train yard or distribution centre? I rather doubt it'd need or even justify 0.5kt and up.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I wouldn't be so quick there. We only know of the larger warhead - the smaller ones (less than 0.5KT from memory) are no listed in the books except for a very few exceptions.
Just how big a blast would it take to nuke a train yard or distribution centre? I rather doubt it'd need or even justify 0.5kt and up.

How would a nuke this small be delivered to the continental US? The smaller warheads were not fitted to ICBMs and Tactical Missile Launchers lacked the range to reach the continental US. You couldn't fly BEARS into the launch range of any warhead under 100kt (this is the typical nominal yield of a medium range cruise missile) because the US Airforce would slaughter the bombers before they got to "launch range." 100kt was the typical nominal yield for most sub launched cruise missiles as well. Many of these had a range of less than 1000km which means they could not reach the middle of the US from safe launch positions in the ocean (this is the reason that the Boomers exist). You do realize that a half kiloton nominal yield is the payload of an artillery shell, small aircraft-delivered bomb, or rocket. The 8" M110 howitzer I served on had a remanufactured round with a nominal yield of 20kt. This is a MAJOR flaw in the original Twilight2000. The authors had very limited knowledge of the nuclear capability and strategy of the countries involved. For instance, IF Russia had wanted to cripple the US without triggering a full exchange, they would have detonated their nukes in the stratosphere and knocked out the US with an EMP. The problem is that we regarded ANY launch as a full attack and would have launched our missiles at the USSR (because we would have no way of knowing that the Russian ICBMs would detonate in the stratosphere). In fact, an EMP attack was part and parcel to a Soviet Launch of ICBMs.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

We only know of the larger warhead - the smaller ones (less than 0.5KT from memory) are no listed in the books except for a very few exceptions.

It's a 0.5MT (500KT) threshold isn't it?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

It's a 0.5MT (500KT) threshold isn't it?

So it is. I knew it was 0.5 something, but was too lazy to look it up.
500KT is a pretty big blast especially when you consider Hiroshima was only 15KT.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So it is. I knew it was 0.5 something, but was too lazy to look it up.
500KT is a pretty big blast especially when you consider Hiroshima was only 15KT.

500KT changes things. That SLBM territory. But it still doesn't matter. To get all the Class 4 rail lines in the Northeast or Midwest would leave most of CONUS as scorched earth. That didn't happen.

[Legbreaker]

Don't have to get the lines, just the transport hubs and choke points such as major river crossings. Don't even need to get all of them either, just enough to seriously disrupt operations - as if a general nuclear attack wasn't enough to begin with.

Don't know too many civilian workers willing to continue with their duties when they're sitting on a potential ground zero. Even the rumour of a strike upwind is certain to send most of the workers scurrying for wherever they think might be safe. Fallout from a strike a hundred miles away (or even more) could also contribute to keeping the workers away as nobody wants to risk radiation poisoning, even if the authorities say it's safe.

[Targan]

How resistant is 90s-era electric switching gear to EMP? (I'm guessing fairly resistant actually). How difficult and labour-intensive is it to move from electric signalling and switching along major rail lines to mechanical (human-powered) signalling and switching once the power goes out?

[Slappy]

This is an interesting conversation.

I think one thing being underestimated is how valuable a railroad would be if it went somewhere interesting. Any railroad. Even one with gaps and reliability issues. The advantage of rail over road transport is immense. Nearly as good as building a river between two points. In the century before the railroad, that's actually what happened. They were called canals. And the first railroads didn't rely on steam power. The carts were horse drawn and it was still ridiculously more efficient.

So, if you had a line that went somewhere interesting, there would be huge incentive to repair and maintain it. That's true even where you needed to move goods along the road or even ferries for some distance. A line from Norfolk moving inland toward Richmond and then Charlottesville or DC would be extremely valuable for Milgov.

As far as the PCs go, what's interesting about the railroad is that it's far easier to attack than defend. Commandos have the choice of location and defenders would need to control huge territories in order to keep the line safe. So, I think a raid would be a good adventure.

For a campaign, I'd have them reconing the route. "There used to be a line out that way. No one knows what condition it's in, but if we can make it usable, it will open up the whole state to reconstruction. We need you to find a way through, make contact with towns and groups along the way. And of course you'll be escorting these engineers and metallurgists. And watch out for the remains of the 301st which have been rumored to be out that way."

[.45cultist]

RW, 30% of U.S. cars are depoted since there is less manufacturing. Also one here's of old cars containing war material for WWII or Korea being discovered once in a blue moon.

[Targan]

One great thing about rail lines is that so much of the material involved is reusable. Track ballast, sleepers and rails on rail lines not in use can all be ripped up and used to repair and maintain more critical rail lines.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Targan

One great thing about rail lines is that so much of the material involved is reusable. Track ballast, sleepers and rails on rail lines not in use can all be ripped up and used to repair and maintain more critical rail lines.

Like any other venture, that could be an adventure in itself.