WWII equipments in T2K

[Mohoender]

What I just put on Cameroon make me think of that. What do you think would happen to the various surviving WWII equipments?

Aircrafts had been largely covered but what of the ground equipments such as the ones holded by collectors everywhere?

What of the ones still held by verious armies?

M51 Super Sherman (just phased out by Israel with several sold to Chile)
T-34/85
M24 Chaffee
M5 Stuart
M8 Armored Car
M3 Half Track (in Latin America, in Africa and around 3500 in Israel)
M3 Scout Car

You can also extend this to post war equipments including the ones in Sweden, Switzerland, BTR-40, OT-810, Volvo TL-22...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Personally I use a fair bit of WW2 equipment in my games, cropping up from museums and collectors, but if anyone has stats for the DUKW I'd love to lay hands on them please.

[chico20854]

I have the Czech Army mobilization-only units still using OT-810s (post-war SdKfz-251s with a diesel engine). Stats are on page 28 of the Czech Army Vehicle Guide at http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/s...icle_guide.pdf

Many lower-readiness Pact units use T-34s and various WW-II era artillery (D-1, M-30, ZiS-3, A-19, etc). Historically, many Pact units in the 1980s used these systems, so their continued use in even lower readiness units 10 years later wouldn't be too unlikely.

And in 1989 the Red Army ran a battalion or more of T-34s through Red Square as part of their Victory Day celebrations.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm not sure what came of it, but some of the M-51s that Israel sold to Chile were tested with 60mm HVMS autocannons at Chile's request. Anybody know if they went into service?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'm not sure what came of it, but some of the M-51s that Israel sold to Chile were tested with 60mm HVMS autocannons at Chile's request. Anybody know if they went into service?

I've been lurking in some Chilean forums, and it seems that all the types of Sherman were retired from service in the 90's. Those tanks (60) equipped with the 60mm HVAP served for 15 years, with some 50 M-24 equipped with the same gun. Seemingly they are kept in reserve. All the other Shermans are now being used as targets for the younger Leopards.

[Rainbow Six]

Would imagine that operational tanks, AFV's etc held in museums would either be acquired either by local military forces, communities, or marauders (particularly after the nuclear exchanges). In many cases I'd imagine there would be no ammunition available - in fact I think in some museum pieces their weaponry is non operational even if you have ammunition?? - but the psychological effect on your enemies if you have armour would probably make it worth while...after all, they don't know if you have ammo for the cannon or not...

As another source, I seem to recall there was a company somewhere in England in the 90's that bought some British Army surplus vehicles and set up corporate days where people got the chance to drive a tank - I think they had a Chieftain tank and an Abbot SP gun amongst others. Of course, in the Twilight War the surplus kit might be retained rather than sold, but it's just another thought...

Also, with Tigger mentioning DUKW's, I know there are a few cities around the World where you can do a tour in a WW2 era DUKW - I did the Boston one last year and I think the company had a fleet of 20 - 25 fully operational DUKW's.

[ChalkLine]

Because canonically the lead up to war is incremental, I can see all military equipment being seen as strategically important and mothballed rather than disposed of.

When the strikes begin and it becomes apparent how bad the damage is, I can also see local commanders, police forces and other authorities flat out confiscating any military equipment, even if it's just an old tank on a hard stand somewhere - it'd still make a hell of a machine gun bunker against people armed with pistols.

In Europe with the smaller area and the larger units, this equipment would probably gravitate to rear area workshops for refurbishment and issue to rear area security units. When most people have carts, having a WW2 era Willys Jeep makes you positively a tech-head!

In the US with its more separated units and larger area, much of this equipment might well evade the round up and stay in private hands. Also, it's more likely that the disintegration of units may lead to this equipment spreading out across the countryside.

As an aside, I can also see whole consignments of things like hunting jackets being issued to militia units as a uniform.

[Mohoender]

That's for the french museum at Saumur

http://www.musee-des-blindes.asso.fr/index.php

The "Konigstiger" is in working order and they have the technicians to keep these equipments alive.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Also, with Tigger mentioning DUKW's, I know there are a few cities around the World where you can do a tour in a WW2 era DUKW - I did the Boston one last year and I think the company had a fleet of 20 - 25 fully operational DUKW's.

I've just remember that Spielmeister mentioned to have seen some DUKW's still working somewhere near Manila.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Because canonically the lead up to war is incremental, I can see all military equipment being seen as strategically important and mothballed rather than disposed of.

Perhaps. But, with the continuation of the Cold War, a lot of older equipment would likely be given away to client states, to be replaced in Soviet service by newer gear. During the Cold War both superpowers, but especially the USSR, practically gave away material to their Third World client states. For example, the Soviet Union sent hundreds of tanks, SAMs, aircraft and other military equipment to Egypt and Syria leading up to the Six Day War and subsequently rearmed both nations following their massive material losses in that brief but costly war- so much, in fact, that both nations were again flush with weaponry just 7 years later. They also sent dozens of airlifts of replacement equipment during the October (Yom Kippur) War, practically pro bono. Not being blessed with the oil riches of other Middle Eastern Arab states, neither Egypt nor Syria had the money to pay retail (or even wholesale) for nearly any of it. The equipment was usually a generation or two behind what the Red Army was currently fielding at the time.

In our timeline, with the end of the Cold War, such giveaways nearly stopped as the cash-strapped Russians sought cold hard cash payments for what had previously been given away or sold on an IOU basis. So, a lot of older gear that no one would have payed for was put into storage. That said, the Soviets, as Chalk has pointed out on previous occasions, did tend to hoard equipment, even at the height of the Cold War.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Marc

I've just remember that Spielmeister mentioned to have seen some DUKW's still working somewhere near Manila.

I think there are DUKW tours in London as well, and there are a couple of DUKW's in Paris afaik, working as river buses. The Royal Marines were using some until recent times as well, posssibly still are.

[Mohoender]

There are several DUKW in Boston. At least it was still the case four-five years ago.

However, I haven't seen much on the Russian version of this vehicle: the BAV-485

[ChalkLine]

Australia has a bunch of LARCs both in military and civilian service.

German Bundeswehr LARC V

[Littlearmies]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

I think there are DUKW tours in London as well, and there are a couple of DUKW's in Paris afaik, working as river buses. The Royal Marines were using some until recent times as well, posssibly still are.

There are - they have at least two DUKWs:

http://www.londonducktours.co.uk/default.asp

Fortunately for them they run from a slipway by the MI6 building and go about half a mile down river to the London Eye / Houses of Parliament (I say fortunately because they break down with some frequency - I've often sat in my office watching the tourists getting an extra little "adventure" as they board the Fire Brigade rescue boats - and the Fire Brigade river patrol are based right by Lambeth Bridge).

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

That's for the french museum at Saumur

http://www.musee-des-blindes.asso.fr/index.php

The "Konigstiger" is in working order and they have the technicians to keep these equipments alive.

I know there is a tank museum in Warren, OH, off of State Route 62, just outside of Youngstown, OH. IIRC, most of their stuff like tanks and jeeps are operational. At the "Wings Over Pittsburgh Airshow," they come every year and have a display there. I've see their M3 Stuarts and Sherman tanks.

Chuck M.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

I think there are DUKW tours in London as well, and there are a couple of DUKW's in Paris afaik, working as river buses. The Royal Marines were using some until recent times as well, posssibly still are.

We have DUKW tours here in Pittsburgh too.


Chuck M.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

We have DUKW tours here in Pittsburgh too.


Chuck M.

They also have them giving tours in San Diego as well.

[headquarters]

lets have a dukw doc -Paul you got any ?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by headquarters

lets have a dukw doc -Paul you got any ?

Sorry, not me -- closest I have are the LARC-5, LARC-15, and LARC-60.

[kato13]

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/DUKW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW

In my T2k game the largest number of them in use are with the 1st brigade 49th Armored. They acquired about 90 of them (plus signifigant spare parts) while passing through the Wisconsin dells in early 98. My morrow project also uses them around the great lakes and some major rivers.

Edit Paul according to Wikipedia the Russian BAV 485 is also close.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/DUKW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW


Edit Paul according to Wikipedia the Russian BAV 485 is also close.

With the main difference being a sliding ramp at the back of the BAV.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

I know there is a tank museum in Warren, OH, off of State Route 62, just outside of Youngstown, OH. IIRC, most of their stuff like tanks and jeeps are operational. At the "Wings Over Pittsburgh Airshow," they come every year and have a display there. I've see their M3 Stuarts and Sherman tanks.

Chuck M.

Do you have a name for that museum? I have failed to google it so far. I tend to spend a lot of vacation time in NE Ohio or NW Penna., so that appeals to me.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Do you have a name for that museum? I have failed to google it so far. I tend to spend a lot of vacation time in NE Ohio or NW Penna., so that appeals to me.

I'll see what I can find. I might have it in one of my books on the airshow we have every year.

Chuck M.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Do you have a name for that museum? I have failed to google it so far. I tend to spend a lot of vacation time in NE Ohio or NW Penna., so that appeals to me.

OK, I believe I have found it, Google Earth is your friend although it runs slow on this old 400 MHz, Pentium II.

World War II Vehicle Museum
5959 West Liberty Street
Hubbard, OH 44425
(330) 534-8125

Chuck M.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

OK, I believe I have found it, Google Earth is your friend although it runs slow on this old 400 MHz, Pentium II.

Google Earth actually works on that?

[Matt Wiser]

Remember, the Soviets were famous for never throwing anything away. It's been said that they had thousands of T-34s, along with JS-IIs and -IIIs, in storage "East of the Urals" in war reserve. In T2K some of that stuff might find its way to Central Europe. Ditto for tanks like the T-44 and the early T-54, along with APCs like the BTR-40, -50, and -152. ISTR on the web somewhere that the last Russian exercise in which JS-IIs took part was in 1995, and no, this wasn't a parade or WW II victory event, it was a real exercise.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Remember, the Soviets were famous for never throwing anything away. It's been said that they had thousands of T-34s, along with JS-IIs and -IIIs, in storage "East of the Urals" in war reserve. In T2K some of that stuff might find its way to Central Europe. Ditto for tanks like the T-44 and the early T-54, along with APCs like the BTR-40, -50, and -152. ISTR on the web somewhere that the last Russian exercise in which JS-IIs took part was in 1995, and no, this wasn't a parade or WW II victory event, it was a real exercise.

Yep, and thus I use them in my games fairly often as a means for ivan to reform units, or to replace losses or for newly formed units.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

OK, I believe I have found it, Google Earth is your friend although it runs slow on this old 400 MHz, Pentium II.

World War II Vehicle Museum
5959 West Liberty Street
Hubbard, OH 44425
(330) 534-8125

Chuck M.

Thank you! I've added it to my "To-do summer" file. I'm already planning a trip the Armor/Patton Museum at Ft. Knox this spring break.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Remember, the Soviets were famous for never throwing anything away. It's been said that they had thousands of T-34s, along with JS-IIs and -IIIs, in storage "East of the Urals" in war reserve. In T2K some of that stuff might find its way to Central Europe. Ditto for tanks like the T-44 and the early T-54, along with APCs like the BTR-40, -50, and -152. ISTR on the web somewhere that the last Russian exercise in which JS-IIs took part was in 1995, and no, this wasn't a parade or WW II victory event, it was a real exercise.

I'm sure I've read that a lot of old tanks got made into pillboxes on the Chinese frontier in the '60s.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Remember, the Soviets were famous for never throwing anything away. It's been said that they had thousands of T-34s, along with JS-IIs and -IIIs, in storage "East of the Urals" in war reserve. In T2K some of that stuff might find its way to Central Europe. Ditto for tanks like the T-44 and the early T-54, along with APCs like the BTR-40, -50, and -152. ISTR on the web somewhere that the last Russian exercise in which JS-IIs took part was in 1995, and no, this wasn't a parade or WW II victory event, it was a real exercise.

The Chinese and North Koreans are also known for that.