using transports as bombers?

[cawest]

as the title says.

I know that the IDF and Egypt Air force used C-47s as bombers in 1948. I was reading an airforces monthy June 2017 and the last two pages cover this idea.

Indian AF converted some AN12 in 1967 used in war on May 1971 they carried 29-36 500 pound bombs for carpet bombing.

Again the Indian AF used AN-32's to drop 10 x 1,000 bombs out the back. again it was carpet bombing.

now for the change.


Sudan used AN-26 with 4 bdz-34 weapons hard points the same thing was done to AN-24's and AN-32s each with 4 BDZ-34 pylons that can carry one 500 pound bomb each.

in 2014 Russian was seen using AN-26 with two P-50sh bombs

Iraq is using AN-32B with 4 pylons for 500 pound bombs to include LGB off of BDZ-34 hard points. Russian made FAB500m-62 and m-62PF. they also had a conveyors on the floor in the cargo hold.

I also know that the USMC launch some kind of guide missile.

before tonight I only knew about the C-47's. Now in Twilight 2000 in the middle east and Africa this modification now that jet fighters do not have the pairs or the fuel to stop them.

what would the rules be for something like this?

have fun

[ArmySGT.]

The Daisy Cutter and the MOAB are both dropped from the C-130, C-141, C-5, or C-17. Typically now from the MC-130 is utilized for this now, but the standard chassis is still capable of bring these to the schwerpunkt.

[dragoon500ly]

An interesting metric is to consider the cost per flight hour of various aircraft. The cost per hour is an estimate of the fuel and maintenance requirements...

C-130 $4750
F-16 $22514
F-15 $41921
A-10 $11500
B-52H$69708
B-1 $57807
B-2 $169313
F-22 $68362
UH-1 $835
UH-60 $2199
CH-47 $2723
CH-53E $20000
AH-64 $3851
AH-1 $1757
F/A-18 18000
V-22 $70000

And finally Air Force One $228800

Sources include Rand Corp and military.com

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

An interesting metric is to consider the cost per flight hour of various aircraft. The cost per hour is an estimate of the fuel and maintenance requirements...

C-130 $4750
F-16 $22514
F-15 $41921
A-10 $11500
B-52H$69708
B-1 $57807
B-2 $169313
F-22 $68362
UH-1 $835
UH-60 $2199
CH-47 $2723
CH-53E $20000
AH-64 $3851
AH-1 $1757
F/A-18 18000
V-22 $70000

And finally Air Force One $228800

Sources include Rand Corp and military.com

Some more from 2012, per Time, which had a report from the Air Force comptroller:

A-10 $17716
AC-130U $45986
C-130J $14014
C-17 $23811
C-32A $42936 (Air Force Two, the VP/cabinet official plane)
C-5B $78817
CV-22B $83256
F-15C $41921
F-16C $22514
HH-60G $24475
KC-10A $21170
MC-130H $32752
MQ-1B $3679 (Predator)
MQ-9A $4762 (Reaper)
RQ-4B $49089 (Global Hawk)
T-38C $9355
T-6A $2235
U-2 $30813
UH-1N $13634
VC-25A $161591 (Air Force One)

[Matt Wiser]

The VNAF used C-130s as makeshift bombers in 1975, rolling bombs on pallets out the rear cargo door. They also dropped at least one Daisy Cutter-which hit the HQ of the NVA 341st Division and wiped it out during the Battle of Xuan Loc.

[unkated]

Mounting and dropping bombs from a transport is not a big problem.

Doing so with accuracy is. Such drops are as much luck as anything else. Most transports lack targeting systems.

If your target is a town, you can probably hit something in the town. If your target is a particular building or a bridge or a section or road... small chances exist, but no more than that.

You can improve accuracy by flying lower, closer to the target - which makes you an easier target for any AA guns; fly real low, and AA missiles have a hard time getting a lock on you (but small arms can).

You can add the German Ju52 to your list; the original version in 1936 had bombbay doors and was used a bomber in Spain briefly - but the losses in aircraft and pilots soon became too expensive, and bombbay doors were dropped from the design.


Uncle Ted

[cawest]

Originally Posted by unkated

Mounting and dropping bombs from a transport is not a big problem.

Doing so with accuracy is. Such drops are as much luck as anything else. Most transports lack targeting systems.

If your target is a town, you can probably hit something in the town. If your target is a particular building or a bridge or a section or road... small chances exist, but no more than that.

You can improve accuracy by flying lower, closer to the target - which makes you an easier target for any AA guns; fly real low, and AA missiles have a hard time getting a lock on you (but small arms can).

You can add the German Ju52 to your list; the original version in 1936 had bombbay doors and was used a bomber in Spain briefly - but the losses in aircraft and pilots soon became too expensive, and bombbay doors were dropped from the design.


Uncle Ted

the craft have the most info are would do no worse than an anti ship run from a B-25. that put a few small targets on the bottom. the speed of current "transports" i listed are as fast as a B25. i also was refering this as a twilight 2000 and manpad SAMs are rare. Most only have a battery that last a few years before needing to be replaced. with no one or only one or two countyrs in T2K capable of make replacement batteries in those missile, SAMs will drop numbers quickly. or if you add flare kits that were taken off of grounded fighters (lack of parts or fuel) and add them to you new light bombers. that would increase your chances against SAMs. It would do NOTHING against HMGs and medium AA cannons (37mm,40mm,57mm) are even harder to find than manpads. or you can fly above 24.000 feet and they would not be able to touch you. just aim for the center of town, that should be good enough.

[rcaf_777]

What about converting civilian aircraft? Has an example take the Air Tractor 300 Series. Air Tractor AT-300 is a family of agricultural aircraft used for crop dusting, The company in 2008 developed the AT-802U a tandem two seat heavily armored and modified with sensors and reinforced for weapons carriage

There are also the Vietnam era Forward Air Controllers flying Cessna O-1 Bird Dog. They often used rifle fire and hand grenades, the most famous example is US Medal of Honour winner Captain Hilliard Almond Wilbanks USAF who used his M-16 rifle to strafe run VC troops until air support arrived.

Just some thoughts

[unkated]

Originally Posted by cawest

the craft have the most info are would do no worse than an anti ship run from a B-25. that put a few small targets on the bottom. the speed of current "transports" i listed are as fast as a B25.

Speed has little to do with it. Targeting systems (not available in transports) have a lot.

B-25s doing skip bombing did use the targeting system for their fixed guns. It was a method worked out over time - not a matter of just dropping bombs out the back.

Skip bombing BTW does not work on land. Bombs just blow up rather than skip.

Originally Posted by cawest

i also was refering this as a twilight 2000 and manpad SAMs are rare.

Yes. But MMGs and LMGs are not as rare. Hence my point about the danger of flying low enough to have a decent chance of hitting a less than large town-sized target.

But then again, spare fuel for aircraft on bombing missions with a low chance of causing useful damage, as well as working aircraft, are also rare in a T2K environment.

Originally Posted by cawest

or you can fly above 24.000 feet and they would not be able to touch you. just aim for the center of town, that should be good enough.

The USAAF proved hundred of times in WW2 and Korea that it is quite possible to miss small town-sized targets from above 20,000 ft.

My point is that it is entirely possible to do, just not likely to be useful, unless you fly low and slow and are lucky - and willing to accept the danger of flying low over an armed enemy. Flying over an unarmed enemy is easier, of course.

Transports do not make good bombers, but if the other side has no defenses against aircraft and you have fuel to spare, its easy - like having the only tank against men armed only with rifles and machine guns.

Uncle Ted

[simonmark6]

I don't think that transports with conventional bombs would be that effective, too much accuracy is needed for anything other than general terror bombing. There are other options if you have fuel for aircraft in my opinion. It depends on what you want to do tactically:

1) Terror bombing: what about barrel bombs? You could use an improvised FAE and drop it on a reasonably low and fast run. There are many risks but the nature of FAE makes it less necessary to be accurate.
2) Harming civilian population: set up some light aircraft as crop-dusters and dump chemical weapons on them.
3) Taking out point targets:
Equip a transport as a gunship, it comes in low and slow and takes out any enemy AA. This will still leave ground troops, but firing back at something like a Spooky would be scary (well, I imagine so)
Then you bring in your second transport with a barrel bomb or a big conventional bomb modified with a parachute or something to slow down the drop and come in as low and slow as you can, Spooky suppresses the ground fire and you drop the big bomb on the target.

In places like Africa, if I had fuel for aircraft I'd rather use it for scouting for my ground troops than attacks anyway but if you had enough to run a few transports as well I'd go the gunship route.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by unkated

The USAAF proved hundred of times in WW2 and Korea that it is quite possible to miss small town-sized targets from above 20,000 ft.

They also proved it is quite possible to hit the wrong country.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by unkated

Mounting and dropping bombs from a transport is not a big problem.

Doing so with accuracy is. Such drops are as much luck as anything else. Most transports lack targeting systems.

If your target is a town, you can probably hit something in the town. If your target is a particular building or a bridge or a section or road... small chances exist, but no more than that.

You can improve accuracy by flying lower, closer to the target - which makes you an easier target for any AA guns; fly real low, and AA missiles have a hard time getting a lock on you (but small arms can).

You can add the German Ju52 to your list; the original version in 1936 had bombbay doors and was used a bomber in Spain briefly - but the losses in aircraft and pilots soon became too expensive, and bombbay doors were dropped from the design.


Uncle Ted

Our recent MOAB strike in Afghanistan is an example of a smart weapon being dropped from a transport aircraft, so accuracy is possible in some circumstances.

The US is also looking at arming the AC-130 and MC-130 with air-to-ground missiles and possibly air-to-air missiles -- in the latter case, fitting them with a version of the F/A-18C's radar has been mentioned.

The Russians have dropped their own version of the MOAB from transport aircraft.

The Chinese have been arming transport aircraft with air-to-ground missiles, antishipping missiles, and mine-laying cluster bombs for years. They are reputedly experimenting with dropping a small ICBM or IRBM out the back of their largest transports, where they would parachute down until the aircraft is clear of the missile's motor, then the missile's motor ignites.

[Apache6]

The USMC has recently developed a package that allows them to employ KC-130s as a "poor mans" version of the AC-130. Look up the Harvest Hawk module. It includes ISR systems and the ability to fire missiles and rockets (both hellfire and 2.75 rockets.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

They also proved it is quite possible to hit the wrong country.

Jeez! Just because we bombed Switzerland during World War Two......twenty-five times.

Although, just how does one miss a target by 254 miles?

Which just goes to show that the Air Force is the only service that claims 100%, after all, what ever falls out of the airplane has to hit the ground...somewhere!!!

[rcaf_777]

I don't see what the issue is! John Wayne AKA The Duke converted a C-47 Transport into bomber in the 1943 Movie The Flying Tigers. He dropped a few make shift bombs on a bridge and then his co star crashed the plane into a Japanese Army train.

Come on if the Duke can do it it's can be successfully done

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Apache6

The USMC has recently developed a package that allows them to employ KC-130s as a "poor mans" version of the AC-130. Look up the Harvest Hawk module. It includes ISR systems and the ability to fire missiles and rockets (both hellfire and 2.75 rockets.

They're using Hellfires and Griffins. The Harvest HAWK is an interesting package of systems. It mounts a quad Hellfire launcher from an AH-1 Cobra under the left wing, the Target Sight Sensor from an AH-1Z Cobra in an empty fuel tank under the left wing, the fire control system from an SH-60 Seahawk in the cargo bay, and a Griffin missile launcher in the left paratroop door with a "wine rack" of ten reloads (it originally had a 10-tube "Gunslinger" launcher on the rear ramp, but that required depressurizing the aircraft and made it inconvenient to use the Griffins). The modifications cost around $10 million per kit.