40mm Beehive round

[Legbreaker]

Anyone see any practical use for this that can't be already done (and probably better) by a simple burst from an automatic weapon?
What are your thoughts Paul? Can't see it on your site.

Attachment 4122

[Apache6]

There is an existing 40mm buckshot round that fires 24, 00 buck shot projectiles.

I'm fairly certain 24 pellets of 00 buck is going to do more damage then 18 rounds of .22.

I'm guessing that the "beehive" round is actually a "pepper pot" which has barrels for each of the 18 .22lr rounds. Seems like that would be more expensive and less lethal then the buckshot round.

There is also a variant of the buckshot round with fewer larger 'rubber balls' that is a less lethal crowd control round.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, personally I'm quite dubious about the effectiveness of the .22 projectiles, even though there's 18 of them.
I'm sure like most of us, I've shot my fair share of them, mainly hunting, and it takes a well placed shot to take down anything much bigger than a rabbit. This thing is would be lucky to wound an opponent in body armour, and most likely just annoy them a bit.
That's my opinion of it anyway.

I'm aware of other multi projectile 40mm rounds although never got my hands on any (HEDP, ILLUM, Prac, was about it for me). The flechette and shotgun type rounds surely have to be more effective than this thing though.

One (and possibly only) advantage this has is it's reloadable, provided you've got a supply of .22 available.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Anyone see any practical use for this that can't be already done (and probably better) by a simple burst from an automatic weapon?
What are your thoughts Paul? Can't see it on your site.

Attachment 4122

My only thought is that it is likely to put the rounds much closer together than a 18round burst, but other than that nothing comes to mind.

[Raellus]

I know that LRRPs and SOG recon teams in Vietnam often used cut-down M79 grenade launchers firing buckshot rounds to break contact during engagements. Some point men carried these as their primary weapon (although most preferred something more versatile). LRRP and SEAL point men also sometimes carried 12-gauge shotguns. The reason/principle behind this decision is more or less the same. Maximum dispersal of rounds (at close range) in the shortest period of time, and the psychological impact of the sound of a shotgun blast.

In a burst of automatic fire, unless the shooter is waving the barrel of his weapon around, the rounds tend to follow roughly the same path downrange. A 40mm buckshot, or flechette, or .22 pepperpot round would have more dispersal/wider spread, thereby increasing the odds of a hit. It might not be a fatal or disabling hit (unless the target absorbs multiple projectiles) but it's probably enough to stop them shooting long enough for the good guys to get away. I suppose that a single blast of buckshot, flechettes, or .22 rounds also has quite a negative psychological effect on the recipients.

[Legbreaker]

Recoil generally disperses the rounds in a burst.
This beehive round has 3 inch rifled barrels apparently. Unless they're angled away from parallel somewhat, it's going to have near zero dispersion over what you might jokingly call "effective" range, so the target would be hit with 18 small and rather light soft lead projectiles which will almost certainly just flatten against any body armour.

All that said, would it be fun to shoot? Hell yeah! It'd shred paper targets with the best of them!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have a vague recollection that this "beehive" round was developed by a small company in the USA several years ago as a novelty round rather than a serious piece of combat ordnance.
Doing a quick check, it would seem that it might have been made as a way to get more variety in 40mm ammo available to US civilians (destructive rounds are apparently very expensive, if they can be found for sale at all).

Also available in 10-rd capacity (with some good images of the whole contraption)
http://www.freewebs.com/grog/10%2022%20review.htm
https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/20...-22lr-adapter/

[Olefin]

Well if you have zombies in your game it sounds great - otherwise not sure how effective it would be

[pmulcahy11b]

There were actually 40mm Beehive rounds manufactured on a limited basis for US Special Ops troops in Vietnam. Some troops felt that they were better than tactical buckshot, but many had more negative opinions -- inadequate spread, poor penetration against the type of huts often encountered in South Vietnamese villages, and the loud whoosh the round produced when the round was fired. Though they quickly passed out of official military service, some are supposedly still in the supply train -- no doubt in a box in a warehouse next to the Arc of the Covenant...

[stg58fal]

The buckshot from a 40mm probably wouldn't have almost any penetration beyond a few meters. Those grenades are extremely low velocity. You can watch the projectile fly thru the air when you fire one. The .22 would most likely have better penetration against basically everything.

Not saying that the round would be particularly useful. It would depend greatly on how common body armor is among your opponents. Against unarmored people, at fairly close range, it'd be a nasty round to get hit by, especially if the barrels were positioned so that all the rounds were hitting in an area not much bigger than the casing.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by stg58fal

The buckshot from a 40mm probably wouldn't have almost any penetration beyond a few meters. Those grenades are extremely low velocity. You can watch the projectile fly thru the air when you fire one. The .22 would most likely have better penetration against basically everything.

I'm no physicist, but doesn't the muzzle velocity have a lot to do with the powder charge in the round? Might a 40mm buckshot round have more power in it, and therefore more muzzle velocity upon firing, than a standard 40mm HE round? Plus, I reckon that a 4omm HE round is heavier than a handful of OO buck. Wouldn't the weight of the projectiles have something to do with the relative muzzle velocity of a buckshot round v. a 40mm HE round? I'm not trying to be snarky here- these are serious questions.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm no physicist, but doesn't the muzzle velocity have a lot to do with the powder charge in the round? Might a 40mm buckshot round have more power in it, and therefore more muzzle velocity upon firing, than a standard 40mm HE round? Plus, I reckon that a 4omm HE round is heavier than a handful of OO buck. Wouldn't the weight of the projectiles have something to do with the relative muzzle velocity of a buckshot round v. a 40mm HE round? I'm not trying to be snarky here- these are serious questions.

There's an irony that this thread should come up just as I was researching the 40mm (now) M576 Multiple Projectile Round which was mistakenly listed as the "multipurpose round" in several FMs until the 1980's (along with the HE's mistaken 370m effective casualty radius). The Buckshot round actually contains 20 rounds of NUMBER FOUR BUCKSHOT (.24") inside a special sabot with 6 vent holes in it that allow the sabot to fall away without causing the shot to spread. Its velocity is 880ft per second and this presents a fairly anemic shotgun round when you consider that a standard 12 Gauge shell (2 3/4"), which is 18.5mm in bore diameter, holds 27 #4 Buckshot Pellets traveling at up to 1600ft per second.

There is a reason for the anemic loading at HALF the velocity of a normal 12 Gauge loading though. The 40mm M79 and M203 have either an Aluminum or Composite (metal) barrel. They also use a High-Low pressure system that limits rounds to 35,000 PSI upon launch (note that the M320 can handle MUCH higher pressures and longer cartridges). Some 12 Gauge loadings can hit 50K PSI. Thus, the round is "downloaded" to avoid rupturing the barrel or otherwise damaging the weapon. I thought that a better pressure containment could have been used INSIDE the cartridge (a double liner perhaps?) but the developers didn't do this. It could be due to recoil (the M576 aught to be fairly tame to shoot) or because they used the space inside the cartridge for the sabot (which acts as both a "full choke" AND a "flight control wadding" to control load expansion). It does compare favorably to a standard 12 Gauge loading from a 20" Full Choke barrel in terms of terminal effects (pellet density and pattern). The round keeps 13 of 20 pellets on a man-sized target at 40meters. The use of #4 is also not unusual in military circles as the Russian KSG-23/TOZ-123 (the TOZ is the civilian smoothbore while the KSG has a rifled barrel) also uses #4 Buckshot in their LIGHT loading (the Heavy Loading uses 0000 Buck by weight of projectile).

It should also be noted that the XM576E2 variant which contained 27 #4 Buckshot pellets spread the width of the 40mm Cartridge (and only a SINGLE PELLET DEEP) performed poorly. It could only keep an average of 6 pellets on a man-sized target at 40 meters and lost HALF of its pellets before 20 meters. This caused the Army to discontinue the E2 variant.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by stg58fal

The buckshot from a 40mm probably wouldn't have almost any penetration beyond a few meters. Those grenades are extremely low velocity. You can watch the projectile fly thru the air when you fire one. The .22 would most likely have better penetration against basically everything.

Not saying that the round would be particularly useful. It would depend greatly on how common body armor is among your opponents. Against unarmored people, at fairly close range, it'd be a nasty round to get hit by, especially if the barrels were positioned so that all the rounds were hitting in an area not much bigger than the casing.

I have to agree with you on this. The slow reload would be its undoing though.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Apache6

There is an existing 40mm buckshot round that fires 24, 00 buck shot projectiles.

I'm fairly certain 24 pellets of 00 buck is going to do more damage then 18 rounds of .22.

I'm guessing that the "beehive" round is actually a "pepper pot" which has barrels for each of the 18 .22lr rounds. Seems like that would be more expensive and less lethal then the buckshot round.

There is also a variant of the buckshot round with fewer larger 'rubber balls' that is a less lethal crowd control round.

Do you happen to know the designation of this round? I keep hearing about it but nobody can give me a designator number. I suspect it is one of the newer rounds that have come out since the M320 was adopted (because it can handle longer and higher pressure rounds than the M79 and M203).

[Legbreaker]

A couple of useful links.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...tions/m576.htm
http://inetres.com/gp/military/infan...40mm_ammo.html

Also worth noting the wealth of adaptors/sleeves available allowing use of full sized 12 gauge ammo (and others) which mitigate the high pressure problem.

Attachment 4128

[Rockwolf66]

The Beehive round is an interesting round as it is marginally more effective than a 40mm buckshot round.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

As for lethality there is a report out of the Balkans conflicts of a Croat point-man who used a suppressed American 180 SMG. The guy would encounter Serbs and let off a burst of 20 or so rounds usually killing the enemy point element before they could raise an alarm.

With a beehive round the bullets would be deflected by just about anything. leading to 18 random trajectories. it might not hit anything but it might make someone duck.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

A couple of useful links.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...tions/m576.htm
http://inetres.com/gp/military/infan...40mm_ammo.html

Also worth noting the wealth of adaptors/sleeves available allowing use of full sized 12 gauge ammo (and others) which mitigate the high pressure problem.

Attachment 4128

Thanks for the links Leg but they use the older outdated information. I really haven't found a source that can confirm the existence of the 00 Loading (if one exists). The M576 contains plate #4 Buckshot because you CANNOT fit 20 00 pellets into a 12 gauge hull (15 to 18 will fit into a 12 Gauge 3.5" Magnum hull) and only 18 will fit into a 10 Gauge hull. I think I would use one of those cool "inserts" designed to fire 12 Gauge Shells in my 40mm (given the choice). They are also available for Flare Guns/Launchers and are well-proven technology.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Thanks for the links Leg but they use the older outdated information. I really haven't found a source that can confirm the existence of the 00 Loading (if one exists). The M576 contains plate #4 Buckshot because you CANNOT fit 20 00 pellets into a 12 gauge hull (15 to 18 will fit into a 12 Gauge 3.5" Magnum hull) and only 18 will fit into a 10 Gauge hull. I think I would use one of those cool "inserts" designed to fire 12 Gauge Shells in my 40mm (given the choice). They are also available for Flare Guns/Launchers and are well-proven technology.

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying the M576 does not hold 20 pellets of 00 buck because you can't fit 20 into a shotgun hull?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying the M576 does not hold 20 pellets of 00 buck because you can't fit 20 into a shotgun hull?

Yes, I am (see below). The original M576 round was made in two configurations. An "E1" version with 20 pellets of #4 Buckshot in a specially vented Sabot designed to release the pellets slowly when fired and an "E2" version which had 27 pellets (also #4 Buckshot) spread across the face of a different Sabot contained in the cartridge. The reason there is even a Sabot to contain the buckshot is due to the pressure needed to launch that payload at 880ft/sec. It comes dangerously close to the roughly 35,000 PSI limit that the original M79 and later M203 were designed to because the M79 and M203 originally had Aluminum barrels and later M203s composite metal barrels (whatever they were...extruded steel maybe). This meant that the M576 grenade has a "liner" inside it (for pressure management) and it then "expels" a Sabot containing the buckshot (to control the rate of pellet expansion). Since the Sabot in the "E1" variant (the "E2" was discontinued during the Vietnam War) clearly protrudes through the nose of the grenade, just by looking at the round it is obvious that the sabot is roughly 12 gauge in diameter. It is also SHORT in length. The M576 is one of the shortest 40mm rounds available. It, therefore, cannot hold 20 pellets of 00 by volume. It also cannot hold them by weight as the round weighs 0.25kg including casing, powder, sabot, and payload. Add to that the fact that the M576 has been in production since the late 60's, and hasn't changed its appearance leads me to believe it is STILL stuffed with #4 Buckshot.

I still hear about this 00 Buck loading and I want to believe that it was made because the M320 can take far more pressure but it would have to have a DIFFERENT designation from the M576 (which contains #4 Buck).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

While not necessarily knowing the specific technical details, I had read some info about its construction and have seen some line drawings of the M576 round.
So I was aware of the "container" (for want of a more appropriate word) for the pellets and the sabot but there's never been any specific detail about the size of that "container".

I had assumed this is what you were talking about but I wanted to be certain. Like you I have checked the details of the M576 in the past but always found conflicting information, some sources state it holds 20 pellets of 00 buck while others say 21 or even 27.
I've also seen images in Jane's Infantry Weapons 1986-87 (page 445) that show two different configurations for the early round, the XM576E1 and the XM576E2. If anything, they serve to confuse the issue because the E1 had the typical "shotgun hull" style container and the air scoops on the sabot while the E2 has a solid sabot with a wide though shallow central cavity apparently filled with 27 pellets.

However I have never seen one of these "in the wild" so all my understanding has come from whatever references I could get (I've managed to get my hands on most 40mm Low Velocity rounds the Aussie Army has used but we never issued the M576 as far as I'm aware).
Now I don't know if you're aware of the following site but it's the one I have usually referenced because the info and images apparently come straight from US Army training manuals.

The only straight-forward info I have on the pellets is from this site and it states that the round holds 20 metal pellets of 24 "g" each
If that's 24 grains then it's half the weight of an average 00 buck as far as I know (roughly 54 grains for 00 shot). If it's grams then it just starts getting silly (24 gram = 370 grain)
So yeah, overall, the whole damned thing leaves me confused!

http://inetres.com/gp/military/infan...ammo.html#M576

P.S. The Jane's Infantry Weapons yearbook is the twelfth edition and ISBN is 0 7106 0829 2 if you want to chase it up

[Legbreaker]

Straight from the US TM 43-0001-25 Army ammunition Data Sheets found here https://archive.org/details/milmanua...on-data-sheets
At only 115 grams that's a really light round!

Attachment 4131

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Straight from the US TM 43-0001-25 Army ammunition Data Sheets found here https://archive.org/details/milmanua...on-data-sheets
At only 115 grams that's a really light round!

Attachment 4131

Thanks, Leg. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for to confirm what I discovered initially about the M576. I think that the reason that we don't see a more modern Multiple Projectile Round is that the Army felt it wasn't needed. The M203 was developed so an Infantryman could also have a small arm to protect themselves and that removed the need for the "Buckshot" grenade. Add to that the development of inserts that allow you to fire ANY 12 gauge round and the development of a new 40mm grenade becomes unnecessary. I'm just surprised at how "anemic" the M576 actually is for a 40mm round.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

+1 to what Swaghauler said. That pdf makes things clearer, specifically that it indicates that the payload of the M576, in total, weighs 24 grams (and not each individual pellet as implied by the website I linked to).

[Legbreaker]

A look at the "key to abbreviations and symbols" for the document confirms "g" is grams and not grains.
Looking at the cut away diagram it looks like it could be reloadable too with the right equipment and supplies. Not something you're going to be doing in the field, but pop out and replace the old primer, throw in some new propellant and cap it off with something to replace the copper disk and you're good to slot in replacement projectile assembly.
Not much more complex than reloading small arms ammo.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

A look at the "key to abbreviations and symbols" for the document confirms "g" is grams and not grains.
Looking at the cut away diagram it looks like it could be reloadable too with the right equipment and supplies. Not something you're going to be doing in the field, but pop out and replace the old primer, throw in some new propellant and cap it off with something to replace the copper disk and you're good to slot in replacement projectile assembly.
Not much more complex than reloading small arms ammo.

I wish the Army would quit mixing units of measure. They use Meters for range and Pounds for weight. They use inches in mechanics and Millimeters in calibers. Just pick one and stick with it!

[Legbreaker]

Us Australians don't have that problem. Like many nations we switched to the much more logical metric system many decades ago leaving just the US wallowing stubbornly in the past.