Campaign Style: Munchkins Vs. Realism

[headquarters]

I thought a little debate on the subject would be a good move to clarify what everybody thinks here .I have a slight sensation of things slipping in the direction of munchkin land in some respects and feel a need to thighten up a bit .

I am of course talking about the possibility players have to go over the top when arming themselves etc .

I know the GM has the last word but input is always appreciated.So spill your beans and we will compare notes .

I for one feel that " realism " in the sense that what is practical in real life is also the guidelines for what can be done in-game , is important .

By this I mean that bringing too many guns,too big guns and even bigger guns as well as being armoured solid like a human apc isnt conducive to a great gaming experience .

I guess in some instances I have allowed munchkinesque or just plain outrageous munchkinism to take place .

This is mainly due to the fact that sometimes the ritual "reading through the equipment list for the mission before you go" has been neglected .Also the element of trust between GM and players that entails no player adding too much stuff on the list effects the situation .(many times this has been done to save time and cut to the chase so to speak -but I never meant for things to get out of hand in this department )

I plan to make sure that equipment lists are checked for "errata" before every operation in the future .I also rely on the players to chip in and adhere to the standards themselves in respect to the equipment list etc .

This especially comes in as a must when PCs are on the move and movement needs to be calculated .

As the equipment list is being checked by GM and player ,the player MUST state wether or not he believes himself to be encumbered /impeded with regards to
-the weight he is carrying
-his armour
-his multitude of weapons with which he has armed.

Also remembering these movement stats troughout the session will be PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY and justice will be harsh on the forgetful .

( GM CPU can get a bit taxed sometimes and keeping all of these variables in my head at the sametime will inevitably lead to melt down ).

I am not saying that players cannot equip PC with antimaterial rifle,
EOD-style kevlar and steel plated armour ,backpack with 50 kg ammo and explosives and other weapons as well as 5-6 assorted firearms .

But I am saying that when we are bent over the map ,pencils in hand and calculating the movement etc to mark the PC in his new position ,he needs to be there himself with his pencil and pointing out that due to his gear he will only move 5 meters that phase at full tilt .I cannot help forgetting and using default movement rates sometimes.

The same applies to completion of tasks like jumping a fence or whatever - the player needs to state his or hers impediments to the GM at the same time he declares his move .

This way those who want the real world practicality can have that and those who prefer not so practical solutions can try these and see how it goes .

Give me feedback people .

[Rupert Willies]

Amen brother!

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Rupert Willies

Amen brother!

I take it Willis feels that realism is importnat and want to see the style tighter.

Anyone else wanna chime in here ?

[Rupert Willies]

They dare not, mayhaps?

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I take it Willis feels that realism is importnat and want to see the style tighter.

Anyone else wanna chime in here ?

I agree as long as it doesn't lower game play ratio.....this is as you all hopefully know a game....u know...suspencion of disbelief.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Rupert Willies

They dare not, mayhaps?

Some -sure .Other -not so much .

different players like different styles .some want as near to real life as possible and some want cartoons.and some are in the middle -in a John Woo movie maybe.

In the best Chinese Cultural revolution tradition ,I will critique myself so that I may proceed with a clean slate :

I have gotten into a few bad habits over the years that have stunted the development of the game .

Firstly I have been too soft on the damage rules.( I do rack up 2 cripples,3 dead PCs and a lot of permanent wound effects like loosing points on strength,constitution,agility,charisma etc over 5 seasons ) -so to say that is totally cartoon I disagree with .

BUT :

I am trying to amend this by using critical hits rules to its full extent ,giving complications as after effects of wounds and of course ,la piece de resistance - the bleedtime rules.

I admit that the gas explosion was poorly handled and should have been more powerful ( but I had qualms about making it more deadly than a 155 howitzer grenade -so I had the book in my corner too in a way ).It was all ad -lib anyways ,as that part of the mission was just an idea that I came up with off the top of my head .I didnt finish it thouroughly due to the fact that taking an evening or two "off" to make a mission feels like a waste when we meet up and nobody agrees on playing it anyways .Thats why I always hassel you guys with "whats the next mission guys he? ey? hæ?".If I get a choice early ,I can prepare it good .But as a mostly improvised mission I am semi pleased with my self .Should have snuffed you and Sanchez though -in hindsight -and let everyone else take a real thrashing. But spur of the moment decision to set damage at C:10 B:20 -what can I say.you were prone,had armour ,got lucky etcetc .

Anyways -back to bleedtime rules: these will ensure that serious wounds will have to be taken seriously (!) and that planning ahead and "acting real life practical" in stead of "in game tactical" (yeah!) will be paramount .The check to stop the bleeding is a real risk and you only get the few chances to do so .
I predict -and sincerily hope- that PCs will take the pen and paper dirt nap
in sessions to come due to these rules.Some might postpone it by adding even more gear and expending valuable PCs -but that will not save them.Only the application of theoretical tactical skills and good acting /role playing can have a chance at this.

Critical hits are really dangerous in this way and any PC critically wounded I should lead to a start of biting of the nails and the mumbling of prayers .

As for the PLAYER munchkin behaviour I will correct the common understanding of what is possible in our next session by DEMANDING that players themselves practically calculate their own movement factor and that the equipment lists are thouroughly discussed before kick off .Failure to adhere or "forgetfulness" will be punished by summarily adding more danger to the PCs predicament the moment the error is discovered.

Yes -that is a pen and paper PC death threath..

I dont think players have actually cheated -ahem- and brought more stuff than their weight allowance dictates .But as they say in hurricane season : "Its not THAT the wind blows that is the crucial factor to standing it ,its WHAT the wind blows.If it smacks you with a Volvo its not going to matter that you managed to stay upright in the gusts" (far out -I know)

Meaning that even if weight allowance is kept , the shape and mass of objects must be discussed to see if they can actually be brought along in stated quantities .5 x 20mm Mechem rifles might be with in in weight /load capacity .It is not possible to carry in a combat gear configuration however.Also the extent of gear brought and the type of armour will be discussed and considered for giving penalties to agility checks and certain moves .(Like drawing a weapon/item when you have too many items will take longer time )

In conclusion a stricter,harsher and more viscious fun.

[theDevil]

...there is still a chance, as I do remember something about toxic airborne bio hazard danger, and as far as i know, i where the only one to inject the atropin, into myself and willis as our hasmats where burned to sunder, leaking like a hooker in heat...

i can sure go for more realism, but then i can see the missions going far to slow, so we miss a lot of blood an gore, sorry and sure enough, i love the crazy action shìte.
But i put alot of though of what i put down at my character sheets back-pack sheet (which where amazing, by the way), and only, if any, slightly over weight, but if so i think that was solved as soon as threw my first grenade, or used up my first mag of ammo.

The challenge of not having to much, is always fun. except when there is a town of zombies around you, then it is always fun to find a ammo dump....

what i try to say is something like this; if we shall have it realistic, it should be outweighed by some "fanzy" shit, like finding an ammo dump, once in a while, nothing wrong in having a hand to hand (knife to brass-knuckles) fight, but... throw us a freakin bone once in a while...

u know, like the guns in the beginning of the mission, for me (the character, and all the talk about bulk(here on the forum), to much weapon etc etc) it was uninteresting at the time(almost encumbered), later in the game, as the "spider-bots" were attacking, it would be much more like "omg, is this a "magic" gun that could kill an "armada" "spider-bots" at the same time, with tactical-energized-spike-bullet-head-of electric lightning???" (overkill explanation, i know, but that is me... ...in a nutshell.. love it,? leave it,? dont fight it.! ).

Even though a nice big suit is fun and great, but un-usefull, information from hdd on the suit or other research is also fancy and fun, but with our technology factories and level we are at now, we cant do jack shit with that.

"we slayed the "metallic-dragon" and all we got where these lousy 5400rpm hdd"

but i guess a big powerfull electric chain lightning gun, would have limited bullets that also... well i like over the top gaming,

BUT

i also like a hard rule about weight limitation. no "gonna get you sucker" to much weight, or the encumburedment of to many guns as shown in the movie "virus" with donald sutherland, and, scream queen, jamie lee curtis...

so yes thanx, as i parafrase the famous words of A.A.Milne "I`d like both..."

[headquarters]

I hear -and appreciate the input .

Yes - ammo dumps will be found from time to time .

I have a little disappointment that I didnt GM more crystal clear on the rules on that bit -but I will as I said do something about that for my own gaming enjoyment .

As far as what you say -John Carpenter will still have a hand in making this movie.And no worries -everyone is ENCOURAGED to play in their preferred style and with their own touch on things .

But a little harsher rules/stricter | will be implemented.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by theDevil

...there is still a chance, as I do remember something about toxic airborne bio hazard danger, and as far as i know, i where the only one to inject the atropin, into myself and willis as our hasmats where burned to sunder, leaking like a hooker in heat...

i can sure go for more realism, but then i can see the missions going far to slow, so we miss a lot of blood an gore, sorry and sure enough, i love the crazy action shìte.
But i put alot of though of what i put down at my character sheets back-pack sheet (which where amazing, by the way), and only, if any, slightly over weight, but if so i think that was solved as soon as threw my first grenade, or used up my first mag of ammo.

The challenge of not having to much, is always fun. except when there is a town of zombies around you, then it is always fun to find a ammo dump....

what i try to say is something like this; if we shall have it realistic, it should be outweighed by some "fanzy" shit, like finding an ammo dump, once in a while, nothing wrong in having a hand to hand (knife to brass-knuckles) fight, but... throw us a freakin bone once in a while...

u know, like the guns in the beginning of the mission, for me (the character, and all the talk about bulk(here on the forum), to much weapon etc etc) it was uninteresting at the time(almost encumbered), later in the game, as the "spider-bots" were attacking, it would be much more like "omg, is this a "magic" gun that could kill an "armada" "spider-bots" at the same time, with tactical-energized-spike-bullet-head-of electric lightning???" (overkill explanation, i know, but that is me... ...in a nutshell.. love it,? leave it,? dont fight it.! ).

Even though a nice big suit is fun and great, but un-usefull, information from hdd on the suit or other research is also fancy and fun, but with our technology factories and level we are at now, we cant do jack shit with that.

"we slayed the "metallic-dragon" and all we got where these lousy 5400rpm hdd"

but i guess a big powerfull electric chain lightning gun, would have limited bullets that also... well i like over the top gaming,

BUT

i also like a hard rule about weight limitation. no "gonna get you sucker" to much weight, or the encumburedment of to many guns as shown in the movie "virus" with donald sutherland, and, scream queen, jamie lee curtis...

so yes thanx, as i parafrase the famous words of A.A.Milne "I`d like both..."

steel dragon etc etc --did you ever think that I send you out JUST to have your pCs killed ?

[FMDeCorba]

Munchkinism is the work of the Devil (not you Johnny, the other guy).
Going through the equipment list quickly and assigning encumbrance status accordingly seems like a good idea. The system that was upheld for awhile with a permanent equpment list with small variations was timesaving, and I´ve stuck to it most of the time.
I must however, confess to letting my character carry more than I would find believable in a movie from time to time, simply because he can.
I guess that if my character was to decide, he wouldn´t have carried all that stuff, but since the most powerful incentives are player survival and "bang-for-the-die-roll", it is hard to avoid unless powerful XP-bonuses/detractions are used to shape player behaviour, IMHO.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by FMDeCorba

Munchkinism is the work of the Devil (not you Johnny, the other guy).
Going through the equipment list quickly and assigning encumbrance status accordingly seems like a good idea. The system that was upheld for awhile with a permanent equpment list with small variations was timesaving, and I´ve stuck to it most of the time.
I must however, confess to letting my character carry more than I would find believable in a movie from time to time, simply because he can.
I guess that if my character was to decide, he wouldn´t have carried all that stuff, but since the most powerful incentives are player survival and "bang-for-the-die-roll", it is hard to avoid unless powerful XP-bonuses/detractions are used to shape player behaviour, IMHO.

trying to let munchkinism punish itself through gameplay by letting the over the top PCs ending in the shit because of their over top lists etc

xp detractions also will be used more sharply than so far .

new mandatory gera lists are on the site and will be implemented from next session .

[FMDeCorba]

Just imagine the possibilities for snagging just walking through a thicket with metal thingies jutting out in all directions..ha ha.
Encumbrance shouldn´t be measured only in weight, but also take the "Murphy-factor" into account, i.e., the potential for getting in the way/snagging etc. just at the wrong moment

[Rupert Willies]

This is a GREAT idea, and could possibly add some comic relief, at least for the other players. Avoiding ridicule is also an incentive for keeping within the boundaries of fair play.

Originally Posted by FMDeCorba

Just imagine the possibilities for snagging just walking through a thicket with metal thingies jutting out in all directions..ha ha.
Encumbrance shouldn´t be measured only in weight, but also take the "Murphy-factor" into account, i.e., the potential for getting in the way/snagging etc. just at the wrong moment

[headquarters]

maybe a new set of encumberance points - 1-10 - depending on loadout and practicability - GM rolls check against the points to see if there is indeefd a snag etc .

all for it .

[General Pain]

strangly I like where this is going

[Rupert Willies]

Yes, that is strange, indeed.. lol

Originally Posted by General Pain

strangly I like where this is going

[headquarters]

I will come up with a little snag rule /mishap rule that will apply for teh sheer bulkiness of objects as well as weight when considering encumberance.

now taking suggestions

[FMDeCorba]

My suggestion would be to have a Murphy scale from 1-10, where 1 is wearing regular clothes without special hoops or stuff velcroed on to it, 10 being the state of wearing heavy body armor in addition to carrying arms, ammunition and a backpack, entailing quite few straps and excentric objects strapped to the character.
When the M-factor has been decided at the GM´s discretion, a 10d is rolled a couple of times (5 for example) before the session starts, and the result is noted by the GM. All results below or equal to the assigned number equals a snag or mishap at a really bad time, and is distibuted freely during the ensuing session by the GM when he sees fit.

This way it will pay to reduce the mass of objects carried, and the GM doesn´t have to make extra die rolls during firefights, without the snags or mishaps becoming entirely arbitrary or whim-based.

[headquarters]

long those lines myself ,but more like pushing the work over on the player -making them take a Murphy roll whenever a round could be called combat -less for the GM to keep track of -

1-10 system the same .

[Rupert Willies]

Isn't this going a little overboard; the new rule would give us another of those silly 10% failure rules - you know even the best pilot in the world would still have a 10% failure rate. In this new case, an Olympic gymnast would still have a 10% chance of tripping over, wearing nothing but a leotard.

I think there should be either a roll against "dexterity" to avoid falling when tripping, or a 0 - 9 M-scale

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Rupert Willies

Isn't this going a little overboard; the new rule would give us another of those silly 10% failure rules - you know even the best pilot in the world would still have a 10% failure rate. In this new case, an Olympic gymnast would still have a 10% chance of tripping over, wearing nothing but a leotard.

I think there should be either a roll against "dexterity" to avoid falling when tripping, or a 0 - 9 M-scale

I wasnt thinking a 10 % chance of fumbling at all times !

Practically equipped PCs wouldnt snag at all in my head - the "fumble roll" should be implemented after tallying up the total load,bulk,armour type and general assessment of this .

Say bulletproof vest and helmet,assault vest ,carbin/weapon ,sidearm and small backpack with a few extras in it - not encumbered -with training you can run about just like that .

level 0 on the scale of fumble -no rolls and can jump around and get down (!)

But say you kick it up a notch

sniper rifle,carbine,sidearms,heavier armour ,big backpack with loads of extras and weight -
level 1 on the scale of fumble -modified agility roll by penalty as well as rolling when making moves like diving for cover,rolling across the ground,crawling etc

and then you get to the antimaterial rifle,smg,carbine,3 sidearms,super heavy armour huge backpack with loads and loads of kit .

level 2 on the fumble.

heavy agility penalty and rolls every time combat is initiated where there are obstacles about -fumble rolls if attempting moves AND when moving around obstacles etc


something like this was my intention -but to "rule-ify it"...hmmmm

[Rupert Willies]

I agree. My fears have been put to rest.

[FMDeCorba]

Originally Posted by headquarters

and then you get to the antimaterial rifle,smg,carbine,3 sidearms,super heavy armour huge backpack with loads and loads of kit .
level 2 on the fumble.

IMO, you will get little mishaps and snags (although they´re inconsequential most of the time) even with training and moderate equipment. A lvl 2 M-factor with the above mentioned eq. seems altogether too mild if it it´s only to be rolled once in a while.
When it comes to "rulefying", keep it simple. There are many things to be discussed about the 10% failure rate even for experts, perhaps the die rolls are made too often?
It however not a good solution to make yet another complex table and modifications against dexterity to add a simple behaviour-shaping element like M-factor.

[headquarters]

I am thinking about just counting and adding up the bulk stats on all weapons and gear carried and compare this to the agility score for a modifier .

then the murphy rolls will be made as a modified agility check by the player whenever making a move that is more complicate dthan running or walking on a straight road .

[Rupert Willies]

Sounds good to me; Straight forward, to the point and playable.

[Targan]

If an amputee character's prosthetic limb weighs less than the limb it replaces does the character get an allowable encumbrance bonus equal to the difference?

[Rupert Willies]

I guess it depends on the usability of the prosthetic limb, and whether it is powered or not. A self powered but heavy limb could more than weigh up for a regular limb, while a poorly made, yet light weight limb could give you a negative encumbrance modifier (able to carry less weight).

Originally Posted by Targan

If an amputee character's prosthetic limb weighs less than the limb it replaces does the character get an allowable encumbrance bonus equal to the difference?

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Rupert Willies

I guess it depends on the usability of the prosthetic limb, and whether it is powered or not. A self powered but heavy limb could more than weigh up for a regular limb, while a poorly made, yet light weight limb could give you a negative encumbrance modifier (able to carry less weight).

bear in mind that those truly fancy prosthetics are as usual as good
single malt in the Kaba / Mekka during the pilgrimage

[Rupert Willies]

Originally Posted by headquarters

bear in mind that those truly fancy prosthetics are as usual as good
single malt in the Kaba / Mekka during the pilgrimage

Well, strange things do happen:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...es.animaltales

Injured deer finds vet

A US vet was amazed when an injured wild deer burst into the building where his clinic is based.

A manager at a PetSmart store in Rossford, near Toledo, Ohio, opened a door and spotted the wounded deer outside.

The animal, which was lying in a pool of bloody snow, jumped up and ran through the just opened door, reports the Toledo Blade.

Once inside, the female deer lay down on the floor as blood dripped from her left hind leg, recalled store Manager Trudi Urie.

She called Dr Agustin Cuesta, who works in the veterinary clinic inside PetSmart, who was able to treat the deer's injury and return her to the wild.

"Of all the places to run into, a pet store that has vets in it," said Ms Urie.

Dr Cuesta said the deer had suffered two or three deep cuts and that bone was showing through the fur. He could not determine what caused the injury.

He placed a numbing agent on the wounds before closing the wounds with dissolvable stitches, while covering the deer's head with a towel to stop her panicking.

"We took off the towel from her eyes and slowly she got to her feet," Dr. Cuesta said. "She stood frozen for a few seconds, but after that she ran out of the store."

[FMDeCorba]

Remember Murphy-snags! Belts, hooks, straps, mags, loose-fitting clothing, helmets, rifle slings, grenade rings, the possibilities are endless