Twilight 2000 - 2300AD

[Raellus]

Since 2300 AD came up in another thread, I'm curious as to how many members have played it.

[Rainbow Six]

I don't think I've ever read a 2300 book, far less played it. Nothing against it, it just wasn't my thing.

[Tegyrius]

I have a very old boxed set and the Mongoose reboot. I feel like its particular setting and set of tech expectations is rooted in Golden Age SF and has not aged well.

- C.

[comped]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I have a very old boxed set and the Mongoose reboot. I feel like its particular setting and set of tech expectations is rooted in Golden Age SF and has not aged well.

- C.

Some of the fan created material especially (and occasionally the ships in the books as well) is quite nice for other games where you may need a bit more realistic space expectation (beyond the jump drive), but it's otherwise not a favorite of mine. The jump drive itself is a particular odd choice.

[Gunner]

I have the complete 2300 Cannon on CD-ROM, but I think I got it for free when I was buying other stuff on CD from Marc. I've skimmed it, but not any deep reading.

[Legbreaker]

2300 hardcopies simply were not available when I was younger. Wasn't until the mid 90's I saw one of the books in the flesh.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

2300 hardcopies simply were not available when I was younger. Wasn't until the mid 90's I saw one of the books in the flesh.

Yes indeed. Depending on where you lived in Australia, it was possible to miss entire game lines (or movies, TV series, novels, comics, plastic model kits, miniatures etc. etc.) because the local stores or the distributors believed there was no demand for that particular product in that region.
Often times, the only way you heard about a particular game was because it rated some sort of mention in some hobby magazine (and sometimes a magazine not necessarily related to RPGs). For example, the only reason I even knew about Traveller in the 1980s was because Military Modelling magazine had adds for the miniatures for the game and curiosity pushed me to find out just what this "Traveller" thing was.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I suppose I should mention that I have played Twilight: 2000 but despite owning the boxed set and a few books plus the entire collection of 2300 AD on CD-ROM, I have never had the opportunity to play or run 2300.

[Benjamin]

I bought Twilight 2000 first but it was not long after that I was shown Traveller 2300. A friend let me photocopy much of his Traveller 2300 game and I very quickly started modifying both backgrounds to connect them even more.

Like I said in the other thread to me the two games will always be set in the same universe.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I don't think I've ever read a 2300 book, far less played it. Nothing against it, it just wasn't my thing.

This is me as well.

[Adm.Lee]

My brother and I bought t:2300 as soon as it came out, probably very influenced by its follow-on status to T2k.

We hit the same wall in our play group that Traveller and Star Frontiers and FASA Star Trek hit: no one wanted to play sci-fi, or really anything but D&D. {Well, one other guy would play SciFi, and nearly all of them accepted my running Top Secret and then T2k.}

So, we played maybe 1 (2 at most) sessions of the RPG, and maybe as many as 8-10 games of the starship-combat game, Star Cruiser. Brother later sold off all of the 2300 stuff while I was away at college.

I re-bought Star Cruiser and a few other books for conversion to a different ruleset in the late 90s*, and then bought the Mongoose Traveller 2300AD book. I still haven't run with that yet.

*the group I was running with then was big into Dirtside II/Stargrunt II/Full Thrust for a few years, lots of fun

[pmulcahy11b]

I've never played 2300, but I do have the rules and all the modules I could find (now scanned to computer, of course).

[Vespers War]

Both for me, although briefly for each game. Somewhere on my hard drive I have most of the 2300 weapons statted out for T2k v2, although I should probably re-do them since I'm not sure I had debugged all the errors in my spreadsheets before doing their calculations.

[bash]

I've played 2300AD and Star Cruiser and enjoyed both. I really like the 2300AD setting but I could take or leave the rules. They're workable but that's all I can really say about them.

I tend to prefer more "realistic" sci-fi settings for games (with a few exceptions) so 2300 worked well for me. It's got enough sci-fi to give players interesting options without it being effectively magic. The aliens are also all really interesting and alien.

I got a bunch of the books used in the mid 90s. My group played the Energy Curve and part of the Bayern adventures (because those are two I had). I've gone back and used the setting or parts of it for other sci-fi games I've run. I used the setting as the background for a Aliens-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off game.

I bought all the PDFs on a CD from FFE but I haven't played in a long time. I still find the setting cool and have kept using elements in sci-fi games.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by bash

I tend to prefer more "realistic" sci-fi settings for games (with a few exceptions) so 2300 worked well for me. It's got enough sci-fi to give players interesting options without it being effectively magic. The aliens are also all really interesting and alien.

I should have said this before, those were *really* good aliens.

[bash]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I should have said this before, those were *really* good aliens.

For people that haven't read/played the game:

• Pentapods - amphibious five legged (think 5 tantacled land octopus) that are master bioengineers. Good relationship with humans and actually sell them biotech that helps fix nuclear fallout to help repair Earth. They have FTL and are friendly with humans but are a bit secretive about themselves.
• Klaxun - tree-like animals with three arms and multiple root-like legs. Discovered by accident.
• Ebers - hairy aliens with super long arms. Had an interstellar civilization during Earth's Bronze Age but it was totally destroyed. They were just back to the Steam age when discovered by humans.
• Xiang - intelligent ten legged arthropod aliens. Kept as a slave race by the Sung and freed by humans. Native of a gas giant's Moon in the Sung's home system
• Sung - picture anthropomorphic salamanders with a pair of wings in addition to their arms and legs. They have a high tech civilization and have settled their system but don't have FTL technology.
• Kafer - anthropomorphic insect looking aliens whose intelligence increases when they are stressed/angry. They have FTL and invade human space starting an interstellar war.

The Sung are the most human-like of the alien species in terms of psychology and culture. Each species looks like they came from Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials rather than Star Trek rubber forehead aliens. Contrast with Traveller's aliens where they're much more rubber forehead aliens save the Hivers.

[Raellus]

I like aliens that are, well, alien. In too much sci-fi, aliens are basically just humans with bumpy heads or animal faces. It sounds like 2300AD got it right.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Smallish image of the various races in 2300AD (best I could find at short notice!)
I leave it to the viewer to figure out what is what...

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Both for me, although briefly for each game. Somewhere on my hard drive I have most of the 2300 weapons statted out for T2k v2, although I should probably re-do them since I'm not sure I had debugged all the errors in my spreadsheets before doing their calculations.

Great minds think alike. I converted 2300AD to the V2.2 rules as well.

[ChalkLine]

My favourite SciFi setting.

I blended it with the Cyberpunk 2020 setting (I didn't like the Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook although I use elements of it) and I ditched all the references to the Twilight War and the odd results coming from it, so instead of a French Arm I have an EU Arm for example.

The Cyberpunk 2020 stuff I use are the main book, the Maximum Metal vehicle sourcebook and the Deep Space sourcebook.

I also got rid of all the vomit-in-the-mouth Crocodile Dundee sort of Australianisms.

[swaghauler]

I did a "Twilight2000 in space" campaign where the PCs participated in a small war over the resources of a newly discovered system with French Mercs. We used the V2.2 rules conversion I mentioned above.

I went with this being a "bridge" to the Traveller universe so I also included the Varger, Aslan, and Dryonne(?) from Traveller. I also used the Jump Drive of Traveller modified to 2300 specs.

I don't have the formula handy, but Jump times were no longer just a week.
The time in hyperspace was calculated by inputing the [DISTANCE JUMPED (in light years) x 1/100th SHIP DISPLACEMENT (in tons)] divided by [MEGAWATTS (put into the Jump Drive) x DRIVE EFFICIENCY] = DAYS IN HYPERSPACE. The big issue was establishing a TRAM Line (Translight Routing & Astrogational Mapping Line). The Astrogation Skill was used to plot a Jump and there were various established JUMP POINTS that could be used based on the risk the players were willing to accept.

- A MAJOR TRAM Line Route has been jumped at least 1000 times at all times of the celestial year and is an EASY test of Astrogation. This is a basic low-risk Jump.

- A PRIMARY TRAM Line Route has been jumped at least 100 times at all times of the celestial year and is a ROUTINE test of Astrogation skill.

- A SECONDARY TRAM Line Route has been been jumped at least 10 times at all times of the celestial year but more likely jumped much more often at SPECIFIC times of the year (such as during harvest times) so the Astrometric data is not as complete for this TRAM Line. The Astrogation test is an AVERAGE one.

- A TERTIARY TRAM Line Route has been jumped a dozen times or less. The data is certainly not complete for the entire celestial cycle. The Astrogation test for this jump is a DIFFICULT one.

- A PLOTTED TRAM Line is a Route that has been successfully jumped...ONCE. The Astrogation test for this jump is a FORMIDIBLE one.

- A CUSTOM TRAM Line is a Route that your PCs plot for themselves. It has never even EXISTED until your crew plotted it. The Astrogation test for this Jump is an IMPOSSIBLE task.


Maneuver Drives used Hydrogen Fuel PELLETS to accelerate and decelerate in G's like an Epstein Drive (even though the EXPANSE was still 20 YEARS away when we played).

The worlds were gritty and became a mashup of the Aliens universe mixed with Bladerunner and Space: Above & Beyond. It was well-liked.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Smallish image of the various races in 2300AD (best I could find at short notice!)
I leave it to the viewer to figure out what is what...

From left to right, Xiang, Sung, Kafer, Klaxun, Eber, Human, Pentapod. There are a few species missing, although they're all ones unknown to humanity as of the year 2300 (and introduced in modules).

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Great minds think alike. I converted 2300AD to the V2.2 rules as well.

I'm curious what you did for the small arms. I've gone with treating the binary propellant as being equivalent to ETC in Fire, Fusion & Steel, and trying to match gun lengths rather than gun weights; some of the rounds are rather energetic and end up with heavy receivers to withstand the generated pressure.

My Kafer projectile weapons from the Kafer Sourcebook end up as:

Vved Ush (Horse Pistol, TL 9 14.1x31mm straight)
Wt 3.15, Mag 6R, Dam 3, Pen 2-Nil, Bulk 2, SS 3, Rng 16

Vved Ach* (Thud Gun, TL 9 12.1x31mm necked)
Wt 12.16, Mag 66, Dam 5, Pen 2-4-6, Bulk 5, SS 4 Burst 10, Rng 51

The Vved Ach* is where the receiver issue pokes its head. The round has an average ME of 7,414.58 joules, which means that under FF&S design guidelines it has a 7.4 kilogram receiver.



The cheerfully absurd one on the human side is the 12-81:

Rockwell "Twelve-Eighty-One Magnum" (TL 10 12x81mm necked)
Wt 22.19, Mag 6, Dam 8, Pen 2-3-4, Bulk 10, SS 4, Rng 98

The range doesn't include the integral bipod, and it does have an integrated TL 9 muzzle brake, since the art appears to show one. Without the brake and with the barrel lengthened to match the stated length, it would be 22.07 kilograms, SS 5, and Rng 103. This is one heck of a hunting rifle.

I haven't debugged my gauss rifle or plasma calculating spreadsheets, so those weapons aren't ready for discussion.

[Southernap]

I have played both 2300AD and Tw2k. The 2300AD is supposed to be more hard sci-fi than the original Traveller. So there are no personal laser weapons, teleporters, limited ship movements in space (no ST warp drives) or other Star Trek or Star Wars like stuff. Rather most weapons are still bullets, some early gauss rifles. Most spacesuits are like we know from the 1980s. The only major change is that oil isn't a power source and instead its all hydrogen power with some small fusions reactors for cities. Realistically, in space there was only a few large ships and most of them are controlled by either governments or mega-corps. As a player you either play as Mercs or with the right module, you are a colonist who gets thrust into a militia defending the region from other mega-corps or an alien invasion. There are some Earth based modules, one set in the Texas trying to keep a guy alive or protect his body from an enemy merc unit. Another is set in Libreville, Gabon where the Earth space elevator is located. The whole module is about how the place is full of crooks, villains, corruption. Sort of like how Mos Eisley is described in Star Wars. You can help try and clean up the town, operate with the crooks, or try and become a element of corruption. Most folks hate this module that are fans of the engine, but when I played it almost 25 years ago with my friends; it was fun for us because the whole opportunity to become rich and famous was good.

I enjoy it because it feels very much like Heinlein style juveniles. The hard science stuff, the chances of being part of some space patrol, the use of intelligence to avoid combat was the primary; but good dice rolls could lead to fun combat. To me with Version 1 and Version 2 of the game, the rules and skills seemed to translate between it and the two versions of Tw2k. So it make it sense and character translation between the two games is fairly easy, at least in my opinion.

That all said, the initial offerings by GDW are considered weak compared to both the original Traveller and Tw2k, since the rules seemed a little more complex and the version 1 rule book had a metric butt ton of errata as well as the setup in the rules wasn't very good. A bunch of page flipping to find out things that should have been in logically order weren't. If I remember (my books are in storage with my cousin), things like combat and healing were like 4 or 5 chapters apart.
The backstory is interesting since it does fill in everything that happens to the world between the end of the Twilight War and the 2299-2300 time frame. The rise and fall of France, the reunited Germany, the various Chinese states, the US, Texas, Mexico, Canada, etc. With the original GDW version of the rules they just mentioned that the Twilight War happened, but it wasn't much more than a paragraph and the 2000s to 2100 is talked about as the recovery period. With the Mongoose version, seemed to make allusions to the T2013 backstory.

I have the Mongoose version of 2300, however it also depends on the Mongoose Traveller V1 rules to play. Since the Mongoose 2300 is grafted on to those rules. I just haven't found anyone in my area that wants to do 2300AD or Traveller; so I can't talk about how it plays in real life.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Southernap

there are no personal laser weapons

You might want to check pages 153-154 of Mongoose 2300AD or page 44 of GDW's 2300AD Adventurer's Guide (I don't have the original T2300 to check its page numbers). Those pages are where the personal laser weapons are described and given game statistics.

[Southernap]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

You might want to check pages 153-154 of Mongoose 2300AD or page 44 of GDW's 2300AD Adventurer's Guide (I don't have the original T2300 to check its page numbers). Those pages are where the personal laser weapons are described and given game statistics.

I will have to dig out my books here a little later to recharge my memory, but I will take your word for it. I just remember playing and our ref made them expensive and super rare (like you had to have a well paid patron or run across it in the military) for the average player to have. That said, the game, IMHO, is still very much like a modern era games that most players will have guns, rocket launchers, and explosives; while the sci-fi is understandable with minimum hand waves (or plot holes).

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Southernap

I will have to dig out my books here a little later to recharge my memory, but I will take your word for it. I just remember playing and our ref made them expensive and super rare (like you had to have a well paid patron or run across it in the military) for the average player to have. That said, the game, IMHO, is still very much like a modern era games that most players will have guns, rocket launchers, and explosives; while the sci-fi is understandable with minimum hand waves (or plot holes).

Yeah, lasers were pretty much military. They often had grenade launchers under them and many GMs restrict explosives if possible.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I'm curious what you did for the small arms. I've gone with treating the binary propellant as being equivalent to ETC in Fire, Fusion & Steel, and trying to match gun lengths rather than gun weights; some of the rounds are rather energetic and end up with heavy receivers to withstand the generated pressure.

My Kafer projectile weapons from the Kafer Sourcebook end up as:

Vved Ush (Horse Pistol, TL 9 14.1x31mm straight)
Wt 3.15, Mag 6R, Dam 3, Pen 2-Nil, Bulk 2, SS 3, Rng 16

Vved Ach* (Thud Gun, TL 9 12.1x31mm necked)
Wt 12.16, Mag 66, Dam 5, Pen 2-4-6, Bulk 5, SS 4 Burst 10, Rng 51

The Vved Ach* is where the receiver issue pokes its head. The round has an average ME of 7,414.58 joules, which means that under FF&S design guidelines it has a 7.4 kilogram receiver.



The cheerfully absurd one on the human side is the 12-81:

Rockwell "Twelve-Eighty-One Magnum" (TL 10 12x81mm necked)
Wt 22.19, Mag 6, Dam 8, Pen 2-3-4, Bulk 10, SS 4, Rng 98

The range doesn't include the integral bipod, and it does have an integrated TL 9 muzzle brake, since the art appears to show one. Without the brake and with the barrel lengthened to match the stated length, it would be 22.07 kilograms, SS 5, and Rng 103. This is one heck of a hunting rifle.

I haven't debugged my gauss rifle or plasma calculating spreadsheets, so those weapons aren't ready for discussion.

I didn't have Fire, Fusion, & Steel when I did the conversion so I used the rules in the (then brand new) 2nd edition Small Arms guide.

I made some "suppositions" about binary-propellant weapons and how things might evolve. My BP weapons had around a 25% increase in range and a 10% decrease in weight. I figured caseless ammo would increase capacity by around 20% to 25%. The Colt Spectre had introduced the QUAD-STACK magazine so I figured this would be the future of all mags. Even with SUREFIRE introducing the 60-round quad stacked AR mags, we still haven't gone forward with this technology. I figured a man-portable BP would have a solid propellant wrapped around the bullet (ala the G11) with a second "aerosol" that would be squirted into the chamber with the round. An electric charge would then detonate the now volatile BP mix. Thus, my BP weapons had a small aerosol can in the pistol grip (good for 500 rounds), a 100-round flush-fit magazine and I reduced the calibers to 4.7mm, 4.5mm and 4.2mm which helped explain 100 rounds in a thick 30-round sized magazine. Otherwise, the major improvements were in Velocity (I increased typical velocities by 25%), recoil (with most weapons using the H&K introduced "constant recoil" system), and in the Optical Sighting systems. This means that these weapons have much longer ranges than typical modern Assault Rifles. My 1281 Rifle held 20 rounds (10 round flush-fit) because an M82 today can hold 12 in a mag.

Gauss Weapons used the same "Homopolar Generator" to charge a capacitor that the Laser weapons used. This means that in my game, both Gauss weapons & Lasers are semi-auto only. This is due to the need for the generator to recharge the weapon's capacitor between shots. While "coilguns" (the slang for hand-held gauss rifles) did significantly increase the velocity of a projectile, the gains were only 50% in velocity over a normal rifle. Thus, most "Coilguns" will have a velocity of around 4K to 5K feet per second. The caliber of these weapons is TINY. 2.5mm or 2.2mm are common calibers. This allows for a 250 round standard-length magazine. The lethality would be enhanced by adding in a small sliver of EXPLOSIVE inside each round (which resembles a long barbed needle). This is similar to the 50. Raufoss round. The damages for these rifles range from 2 to 5 based on the caliber of the rifle. The magazines also house a battery with sufficient power to fire the magazine until empty. So mags have to be both reloaded AND recharged. The weapons CAN be hooked to the power supply in a VAC suit or powered armor. These weapons produce a distinctive "snap" or "crackle" similar to a stun gun when fired and are very low recoil.