Rebuild or remove: A strategic long term question.

[kalos72]

So with my campaign in Manhattan, my group is in debate.

With much of Manhattan/Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx and even New Jersey being SO heavily "urbanized", the group is having debates about how/where to get land for farming.

Cemeteries have come up...

Additional parks from other boroughs have come up...

Alternative locations such as rooftops, window planters and such have been discussed...

What they are debating now is this: Since the population around NYC is less then half of what it once was, wouldnt the land be better used to feed to the current residents rather then have block upon block of unused, deserted buildings?

By concentrating the population you can provide better security, more basic resources such as heat/electric/clean water and easier organization on many levels. Seeing as the entire NYC "published" population could fit on 1/3 of the island of Manhattan now, why not tear down everything else for farmland?

And for god sakes, does anyone have any numbers/information they can link me for cement production in a T2K environment?

[Targan]

Big job to demolish and clear buildings by hand. I think the only way it could be done that way would be for Hizzoner the Mayor or The Duke to use slave labour.

[kalos72]

"Slave" or not is more so treatment then anything now...maybe some better food or housing.

If you control 100k people...who look to you to eat, and you say "if we can clear these 3 blocks we can double our food for next year"...I think labor will no longer be a problem.

[kato13]

Isn't Manhatten island mostly granite. I'm not even sure you would find earth to plant in once you removed the structures.

[kalos72]

No Manhattan isnt mostly granite, at least on the upper levels. Some of it was actually "made" by adding fill to the shore line over several different time periods.

http://bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Map/NY.1729.html

But also, you have Brooklyn and Queens which are part of Long Island whohc has always had a very strong agriculture base.

[kato13]

This shows topsoil of 6-10 feet for areas of Manahtten.

http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/gra...-york/page_051

I knew it did not go very deep due to my readings of the construction of the subways. With areas that had little excavation I expect you could farm there after clearing.


What are you looking for in the way of cement production. I have mine/production locations that I can get to in a little bit. Unfortunatly I am reformatting my primary computer at the moment.

[kalos72]

That would be of use, thank you. I guess, more so, how would a society in T2k make cement?

Because thats part of the debate, if you cant build anything new, should you remove the ones that are already there?

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kalos72

That would be of use, thank you. I guess, more so, how would a society in T2k make cement?

Because thats part of the debate, if you cant build anything new, should you remove the ones that are already there?

Depending on the type of structure you build, you don't always need cement. You can make ground level buildings simply by piling stone one on top another. However, you would need a stone carver because this stones have to have flat sections. Pyramids, Greek Temples and Cathedral were not using cement (It seems that the roman did use concrete). Among your 100k people, many will have to work in that field. I think, that your main problem would be to rethink entirely the way you run a society. I'm interested to know if your group can drop the modern views .

[Littlearmies]

I can't help thinking that knocking down buildings to clear land would be a pretty huge undertaking for relatively small returns. I think rooftop gardens, window boxes and planters would be the way to go. I'd see any flat rooftop used for food production (if you could plant grass up there then rabbit farming would be feasible, and their poo could be used to manure your vegetable gardens). I guess chicken farming would also be feasible too.

I guess that you would need to look at what you are growing - those plants that require deep soil for their roots would need to be farmed in parks and vacant lots at ground level, while those plants that could manage in shallower soil would be up on the rooftops.

On an individual level I think everyone living from the first floor up (second floor up to you Americans) would have window boxes planted with vegetables and herbs (we have a couple of herb plants in flower pots on our kitchen window sill today) - I think that planting on the roof and first floor windows would provide additional security for the individual' harvest - and stop casual filching of carrots etc.

I found this rather neat site when I looked at this - the first link (to a Chicago "victory garden") is pretty interesting - Chicago also publishes a PDF giving some basic engineering details of what is required.

http://www.cityfarmer.org/subrooftops.html

Some of the links there are fascinating - I was taken by the statistic that a survey of Singapore covering about 20% of the whole found 212 hectares of potentially usable land.

One of the pieces also talked about growing mushrooms in basements - evidently this can be an ideal environment for mushrooms so that's another potential area that could be utilised.

But the neatest item was, I thought, this one from Egypt - if you look they are using what look like plastic drainpipes (with large holes drilled in them for the plants). I couldn't help think that if you built a frame you could actually mount these on the wall of your building (so no need for a roof at all). So all you'd need for harvesting is a ladder.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/S...rticle03.shtml

One of the the links had a picture of an abandoned "El" in NYC - The High Line - with weeds growing up between the tracks. Now if this doesn't have potential for growing crops then what does?

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/CHE/...heHighLine.htm

Malcolm

[headquarters]

with so many unused buildings I think your guys should look into breeding "landshrimp" .

It really is an untapped resource ,but I guess a disaster like WWIII would have to happen to get us to really try and eat the critters..

(mainly ground up into paste )

[kalos72]

So this topic was again brought up last night...for the Texas campaign. /blink

Why use a blasted Corpus Christi as a base when you could just build a new one? Say expand the port/roads/railways at Port Lavaca and call it New Houston?

If a major city is nuked, there isn't much use in moving a HQ there, other than the salvage which you can always just send teams in to do anyways.

Perhaps Galveston didnt get hammered...using that new Nuke Map thing it would only take fire damage but most concrete buildings are fine. And its got a pretty good size harbor.

[kato13]

Fallout might be an issue









I calculated fallout based on prevalent wind direction for the nearest 3 weather stations for an average November.



Nearest strikes
2.9 km SxSE of Texas City, TX, 1500 Kt
42.6 km SxSE of Baytown, TX, 2000 Kt
44.6 km SxSE of Deer Park, TX, 1250 Kt
64.1 km SE of Houston, TX, 1500 Kt
86.5 km ExNE of Sweeney, TX, 500 Kt
110.5 km SW of Nederland, TX, 500 Kt
110.6 km WxSW of Port Arthur, TX, 3000 Kt
111.0 km SW of Beaumont, TX, 1500 Kt
144.5 km S of Lamont, TX, 750 Kt
186.3 km WxSW of West Lake, LA, 500 Kt
300.4 km NE of Corpus Christi, TX, 1000 Kt
317.3 km SE of Robinson, TX, 750 Kt
331.3 km E of Randolf AFB, TX, 250 Kt
368.7 km SxSW of Shreveport, LA, 250 Kt
380.1 km WxSW of Baton Rouge, LA, 1500 Kt
399.3 km W of Convent, LA, 750 Kt
420.0 km W of Garyville, LA, 750 Kt
438.7 km W of Norco, LA, 1000 Kt
448.1 km SxSE of Carswell AFB, TX, 500 Kt
477.2 km W of Belle Chase, LA, 750 Kt
482.1 km W of Meraux, LA, 250 Kt
584.0 km SE of Dyess AFB, TX, 500 Kt
621.3 km W of Pascagoula, MS, 1250 Kt
763.1 km S of Tulsa, OK, 500 Kt
814.2 km W of Eglin AFB, FL, 1000 Kt

My games were always about rebuilding so I have some useful tools to find resources in an area

Here are the nearest renewable/Nuclear power sources
77.2 km SE of Sunset Farms - Land Fill Gas - 2219 kWT
130.6 km ExNE of South Texas 2 - # of reactors: 2 - 1280/1280 Mwt
196.9 km WxSW of Agrilectric Power Partners Ltd - Agra Waste - 7884 kWT
237.8 km SxSW of Toledo Bend - 40097 kWT
255.3 km E of Small Hydro Of Texas Inc - 762 kWT
302.6 km ExSE of Austin - 6296 kWT
320.7 km ExSE of Marshall Fd - 19419 kWT
327.3 km W of M A Patout Son Ltd - Agra Waste - 176 kWT
355.6 km E of Falcon Dam - 4154 kWT
362.5 km ExSE of Marble Fls - 3245 kWT
373.0 km ExSE of Granite Sh - 4777 kWT
373.6 km WxSW of River Bend 1 - # of reactors: 1 - 978 Mwt
378.9 km ExSE of Buchanan - 3882 kWT
405.1 km SW of Sidney A Murray Jr Hydroelectric Station - 96124 kWT
428.9 km SxSE of Nolte - 8960 kWT
436.2 km SE of Comanche Peak - # of reactors: 2 - 1084/1124 Mwt
437.4 km W of Waterford 3 - # of reactors: 1 - 1089 Mwt
463.7 km SxSE of DFW Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas - 4496 kWT
466.5 km SxSE of Lewisville - 1277 kWT
468.9 km SE of H 4/5 - 2876 kWT
479.7 km ExSE of M Sheppard - 1899 kWT
482.5 km SW of Grand Gulf 1 - # of reactors: 1 - 1263 Mwt
506.3 km SxSE of Roberts - 285 kWT
512.7 km SxSW of Crossett Paper - Wood Waste - 190 kWT
523.4 km SxSE of Denison - 40356 kWT

Here are the nearest 25 mines
53.0 km SxSW of Laporte/Deerpark Plants Div Of Texas Brine - Salt
64.4 km E of Chemicals & Metals - Magnesium
64.4 km E of Freeport Plant - Salt
71.8 km SE of Hockley Plant - Salt
71.8 km SE of Swilley Pit & Plant - Industrial Sand And Gravel
71.8 km SE of Pierce Junction Plant - Salt
87.3 km SW of Jefferson Plant - Salt
97.1 km S of Tec Minerals Plant 3 - Industrial Sand And Gravel
101.2 km ExSE of Blue Ridge Plant - Salt
124.7 km ExNE of Clemville Plant - Salt
129.1 km SxSW of Barry & Barry Pit & Plant - Industrial Sand And Gravel
164.5 km E of Eagle Lake Plant - Industrial Sand And Gravel
164.5 km E of Industrial Sand Operations - Industrial Sand And Gravel
175.9 km SW of Industrial Chemical Division - Salt
206.1 km ExSE of Balcones Minerals Corp - Fuller'S Earth
206.1 km ExSE of Flatonia Pits - Bentonite
214.4 km SxSW of Deweyville Dredge - Industrial Sand And Gravel
221.0 km S of Angelina County Pits - Bentonite
238.1 km SW of Kinder Plant - Industrial Sand And Gravel
251.0 km ExSE of Hicks Mine
263.2 km E of Texas Pits - Bentonite
280.8 km S of Troup Operations - Ball Clay
298.3 km W of Avery Island - Salt
298.3 km W of Morton Salt Weeks Island Mine And Plant - Salt
300.8 km ExNE of Corpus Christi - Salt

25 nearest steel plants

121.3 km SW of Multiple
263.2 km SxSE of Nucor Steel Texas
306.4 km E of Structural Metals
406.1 km S of Lone Star Steel
411.6 km SxSE of Chaparral Steel
428.3 km W of Bayou Steel
467.4 km SxSW of Smi Steel Arkansas
559.6 km SW of Multiple
565.3 km SxSE of Mid American Steel & Wire
581.6 km SW of Multiple
671.8 km SxSE of Acker Industries
679.2 km WxSW of Ipsco Steel Alabama
679.4 km S of Quanex Macsteel
771.3 km S of Metal Services
771.8 km S of Sheffield Steel
777.2 km SxSW of Arkansas Steel Associates
791.7 km SW of Birmingham Steel Memphis Steel
816.4 km WxSW of Multiple
870.5 km SxSW of Multiple
876.3 km WxSW of United States Pipe & Foundry
873.0 km SW of Birmingham Steel Ripley Powdered Metal
879.5 km WxSW of Koppers Industries Woodward Coke
884.3 km WxSW of USS Fairfield Works
894.3 km WxSW of Multiple
900.9 km WxSW of Abc Coke Div Of Drummond

Chemical plants
11.6 km SE of Gaf Corporation - Organic Chemicals | Employees 200
12.0 km SxSW of Climax Chemical Company - Muriate Of Potash | Employees 3
15.1 km SE of Gaf Corporation - Industrial Gases | Employees 200
15.6 km SE of Union Carbide Corporation - Industrial Gases | Employees 1400
24.4 km SE of Sea Lion Chemical Inc - Organic Chemicals | Employees 38
36.8 km SxSE of Calgon Corporation Delaware - Medicine/Botanical Chemicals | Employees 38
38.0 km SE of Polycom-Huntsman Inc - Inorganic Chemicals | Employees 200
40.0 km SE of Haldor Topsoe Inc - Catalysts Chemical | Employees 41
40.3 km SxSE of Hoechst Clanese Chemical Group - Organic Chemicals | Employees 35
41.1 km E of Monsanto Company - High Purity Chemicals | Employees 887
42.0 km SxSE of Dixie Chemical Company - Inorganic Chemicals | Employees 200
42.1 km SxSE of Amoco Chemical Company - Medicine/Botanical Chemicals | Employees 45
42.3 km SxSE of Haldor Topsoe Inc - Catalysts Chemical | Employees 43
42.5 km SxSE of Phillips Petroleum Company - Catalysts Chemical | Employees 160
42.8 km SxSE of Bayshore Industrial Inc - Plastics | Employees 50
42.9 km SxSE of Arco Chemical Company - Propylene | Employees 300
43.2 km SxSE of Lonza Inc - Inorganic Metal Compounds | Employees 80
43.3 km SxSE of Hoechst Celanese Corporation - Org A/Cyclic Plasticizers | Employees 250
43.4 km SxSE of Fmc Corporation - Bulk Org Medicinal Chemicals | Employees 58
43.8 km SxSE of Himont Usa Inc - Polypropylene Resins | Employees 155
43.8 km SxSE of Hoechst Clanese Chemical Group - Inorganic Chemicals | Employees 650
44.9 km SxSE of Southern Ionics Inc - Inorganic Chemicals | Employees 30
45.3 km SE of Kaneka Texas Corporation - Plastics Materials | Employees 85
45.3 km SE of Cain Chemical Inc - Ethylene Glycols | Employees 100
45.5 km SxSE of Ppg Industries Inc - Organic Chemicals | Employees 100


Military Bases
47.6 km SxSE of 272 Engineering Installation Squadron (ANG) - Air Force
48.1 km SE of 147 Fighter Wing (ANG) - Air Force
244.7 km SW of ARNG (RC) Major Training Center - Army
249.3 km SW of Training Center - Army
284.1 km NE of Naval Station - Navy
293.1 km ExSE of 10 AF HQ (AFR), 924 Fighter Wing (AFR) - Air Force
300.4 km NE of Flight Training - Navy
336.9 km E of HQ Aetc, Af Prsnl Cntr, Af Rcrtng Serv, 12 Ftw - Air Force
350.6 km SE of 1St Cavalry/4th Inf Div (Mech) - Army
350.7 km E of Medical Training HQ - Army
351.4 km E of Human Systems Center, 70 Air Base Group - Air Force
353.7 km NE of Flight Training - Navy
365.3 km E of San Ant Alc, HQ Air Intel Agncy, 76 Abw, 67 Intel - Air Force
366.3 km E of Reserve Component Training - Army
369.5 km E of 37 Training Wing, 59 Medical Wing - Air Force
372.1 km E of Logistics Depot - Army
374.5 km SxSW of 8 AF HQ, 2 Bw, 917 Wing (AFR) - Air Force
381.7 km S of Ammunition Production - Army
387.4 km SxSW of Ammunition Production - Army
434.6 km SxSE of Reserve Air Training - Navy
445.5 km WxSW of 236 Combat Communications Squadron (ANG) - Air Force
455.7 km SxSE of ARNG (RC) Major Training Center - Army
460.5 km SxSE of 301 Fighter Wing (AFR) - Air Force
461.5 km SxSE of Reserve Air Training - Navy
465.0 km SxSW of 254 Combat Communications Group (ANG) - Air Force

Airfields/Heliports

4.7 km WxSW of UTMB - Airport
4.8 km SW of Shell Pelican Island Heliport - Airport
4.8 km NE of Scholes Field - Airport
4.9 km WxSW of University of Texas Medical Branch Hospital Helipo - Airport
5.1 km SW of Dresser Industries/Magcobar Heliport - Airport
6.6 km NE of Tourist Ride Services Heliport - Airport
9.6 km WxSW of Galvestonian Heliport - Airport
11.2 km SxSW of Houston Oil and Minerals Port Bolivar Heliport - Airport
12.4 km SxSW of Houston Oil and Minerals Port Bolivar Number 2 Hel - Airport
19.6 km SE of Mainland Regional Health Care System Heliport - Airport
19.9 km ExSE of Johnnie Volk Field - Airport
20.6 km ExSE of HHI Hitchcock Heliport - Airport
22.3 km SE of Austinia Airport
25.0 km SE of Laseair Airport
26.0 km E of Old Forker Ultralight Airport
26.1 km SxSE of B and S Ultralight Airport
26.5 km SxSE of Ellis Airport
27.0 km SW of Seafood Warehouse Park Airport
27.0 km SxSW of Houston Oil and Minerals Smith Point Heliport - Airport
27.6 km ExSE of Pee Wees Heliport - Airport
27.8 km ExSE of Rebel Field - Airport
29.1 km E of Creasy Airport
33.0 km SE of Houston Gulf Airport
34.5 km SE of Pier 5 Heliport - Airport
34.7 km ExSE of Golden Pegasus Ranch Heliport - Airport

Hope some of that will be useful.

[kalos72]

Sweet! Thanks!

For fallout, two questions.

1- Its been roughly 1.5-2yrs now I assume most of that is gone?
2 - airbursts dont produce much radiation, does that map specify?

[kato13]

That is what will be seen over the first few weeks for an airburst.

However these fallout trails should be taken into account when deciding where to lodge long term and where to farm as exposure levels will obviously be higher within the green bands.

[kalos72]

Very true.

Does your nuke tool match the one I found with regards to rings of damage and the distances expected?

[kato13]

Kinda. I use their older more complicated math. This latest version simplifies things IIRC.

I show fallout or thermal or overpressure (user selectable). I think the new one tries to roll all those into one.

However the underlying math should be the same.

Here are some examples

[kalos72]

So is pretty close anyways...I figured Galveston had blast dmg, windows and such. And even fire storm dmg to the wooden structures. But the bridge, port facilities and such are pretty well intact. Making it the only major port left on the Gulf in Texas.

Question, what's that blast near Livingston? Is that the mysterious "Lemont" entry I keep finding but cannot locate?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Question, what's that blast near Livingston? Is that the mysterious "Lemont" entry I keep finding but cannot locate?

Yep Lamont

http://texas.hometownlocator.com/tx/polk/lamont.cfm

The above site uses the same data I do so you can find local Churches, Hospitals, Reservoirs, etc

Their data is probably more modern (I think i pulled 1997s version) but for most things it will be pretty close

[kalos72]

Yeah, both of these Robinson and Lamont are troubling for me as neither region has ANY oil refinery or storage that I can find. All of the other Texas hits I can support, even if I dont like them. :P

[Targan]

I actually like the idea of some strikes not making any sense. If the Soviets' targeting systems were as notoriously unreliable as commonly mentioned, it wouldn't be unusual to see occasional nuke strikes on locations that defy logic.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

I actually like the idea of some strikes not making any sense. If the Soviets' targeting systems were as notoriously unreliable as commonly mentioned, it wouldn't be unusual to see occasional nuke strikes on locations that defy logic.

I fully agree, but what is vexing is that when they are describing the nature of the strikes they list those as being related to Oil Refining and Storage. If they put something like overshot or targeting error it would make more sense.

The Lemont and Robinson strikes are not the same size as any other in TX (0.75MT). It is a very odd size overall when you look at the strikes on the US as there are only 7 covering an area from Deleware to California so it is hard to write it off as a MIRV error.

I don't know if the Soviets had any MIRVs with 3 -5 warheads of that size (0.75 MT) but if they did there is a strike in Louisiana which I guess could be part of the same package.

[kalos72]

Wait so each missile will have warheads all of the same size...so either multiple warheads hit the same targets or something is wrong here.

We have 0.25mt - 3MT targets in Texas...

[kato13]

I'm going from memory but generally MIRVs from one missile have the same size warhead. From a balance and maintenance standpoint that makes a lot of sense.

The 3MT could be a single, the 0.25 could be a fizzle, and MIRVs can cover an area or 800-1000km IIRC but i think a greater spread leads to less accuracy.

There could also have been a ton of duds mixed into the equation.