Civilian-owned Firearms in T2k

[Raellus]

Has anyone stumbled across, or created, tables for firearms one could encounter in the hands of, or sourced from, civilians in the T2kU? I'm thinking specifically of the USA, given the staggering number and variety of civilian-marketed and owned firearms here.

For a CONUS campaign, one could conceivably stumble across all kinds of guns in civie hands, from an antique (but functional) revolver, to a long-barreled, fully-automatic Uzi SMG, to a .50 cal sniper rifle.

This question is complicated by the various timelines. In timelines where the Soviet Union doesn't collapse (v1), the US market wouldn't have been flooded with former Warsaw Pact Mosin Nagants, SKS, and AKs. Some Vietnam war trophy weapons could certainly be floating around, but the total number of East Bloc weapons in civie hands would be much lower than IRL. I'm not sure what the situation would like like in the v2 or v4 timelines since the USSR/Pact only kind of falls.

Anyway, I imagine that it would be far more common to run across an AR-15 type rifle than, say, an HK43 or Galil. IMHO, any civie firearm table should take probabilities into a account. Also, civie-owned full-auto weapons are much less common than semi-auto.

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[swaghauler]

You would be looking at marlin lever guns 30-30, 243, 45-70, and winchester leverguns in dozens rifle calibers and .38, .357, .45lc, .44 mag, .32 mag. Bolt actions in 3006 (the most popular us caliber), 308, 270, 243, 223, 300 win mag, 458 Alaskan, and .416 Rigby. Pumps would include Remington and Savage in 243, 270, 308, 30-06. Then you would have the combo guns like my Savage model 24 which comes in .22lr or .22mag over a .410 shotgun or .223 over 20 gauge shotgun.

PACT weapons would include the MAK90 and SKS rifles from China.

The FAL would be the second most popular NATO weapon in both inch models and metric and the British Enfield in 303 would be right there.

I feel for any invaders in the us... there's truth in the statement "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I feel for any invaders in the us... there's truth in the statement "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

That's like a quote from the Commander of Soviet Forces in Red Star, Lone Star: "The mosquitos have pistols."

[Tegyrius]

The T2k universe, at least in 1e, seems to postulate an America of the 1990s that was the violent, dystopian future of the 1980s. The 1e Small Arms Guide has some allusions to law enforcement agencies making more extensive use of SMGs, and the M16EZ was a late-war "parts kit" upgrade for local militias and law enforcement when the competing governments ran out of spare M16s to hand out. A couple of the 1e modules set in the US assume a high level of prewar gang activity in major cities.

Based on this and on the '80s general assumption that the '90s would see a continued increase in drug- and gang-related violence, I think the T2k universe probably saw a Firearm Owners Protection Act of '86 that lacked the Hughes Amendment. I also see self-defense advocates quashing any attempt to pass T2ks equivalent of the real-world Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act or the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Act of 1994 (the "assault weapons ban"). For those who don't spend a lot of time cursing at gun control legislation, the net effect of those changes is:

• Legal full-auto weapons still required federal registration and a $200 tax stamp to be legal, but importation didn't stop after 1986, resulting in the relatively small number of such weapons being incrementally larger. Virtually anything can be justified as the former toy of a wealthy or well-connected collector.
• The real-world expansion of concealed carry licensing occured sooner in the T2k universe. The practical effects in 2000 are a greater number of survivors who were accustomed to carrying weapons for defensive use before the war and greater sales (if not general public acceptance) of handguns in the prewar years.
• Standard-capacity magazines were more available before the war than they were in the real-world late '90s.
• Although American law enforcement hadn't moved to the "patrol rifle" concept by the war's outbreak, it was leaning in that direction. Police departments were faster to embrace semi-automatic sidearms, with submachine guns and pistol-caliber carbines augmenting the traditional shotguns in cruisers.

Illegal importation of military armament would also be higher in the T2k universe's prewar years for three reasons. The first is drug cartels and their local subsidiaries and franchises. The second is New America and similar movements. Finally, we have the survivalist movement, decentralized but generally intent on preparing for total societal collapse.

- C.

[mpipes]

The Chinese started importing semi-auto AKs and SKSs in the early 1980s. Same for Yugoslavia, Finland, Israel, Hungary, and Romania. HK-91s, -93s, and -94s were being imported in large numbers. There were multiple manufacturers of AR clones. Full autos were not banned until 1986, but there were multiple gunsmiths capable of converting semi-autos to full; still are. FALs were being imported. There were domestic manufacturers of FALs and semi-auto M-14s. Semi-auto Steyr AUGs were being imported.

[unipus]

Just before my time, but I believe the AR-15 was actually not supremely common prior to the 21st century. Sure, there'd be more than a few around, but it wasn't until rails were added and marketing around the black rifle really took hold later on that they became as overwhelmingly popular as they are today. Anecdotally I recall a lot more scare stories of "AKs on the streets" back then than examples I can think of of privately owned Armalikes

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by mpipes

The Chinese started importing semi-auto AKs and SKSs in the early 1980s. Same for Yugoslavia, Finland, Israel, Hungary, and Romania. HK-91s, -93s, and -94s were being imported in large numbers. There were multiple manufacturers of AR clones. Full autos were not banned until 1986, but there were multiple gunsmiths capable of converting semi-autos to full; still are. FALs were being imported. There were domestic manufacturers of FALs and semi-auto M-14s. Semi-auto Steyr AUGs were being imported.

A few FN FNCs were coming into the country, too. In the Twilight universe, the AR-18/AR-180 might have seen more success than it did in the real world.

(Also, as a point of order, full auto was never entirely banned. The Hughes Amendment to FOPA '86 cut off the transfer of full auto weapons to civilians if those weapons were manufactured after the date the law took effect, but anything built before then remained transferable under the existing provisions of the NFA. This is why full auto is prohibitively expensive today - constant supply, increasing demand. The process itself is no more onerous than the one for the transfer of a suppressor or short-barreled rifle or shotgun. It's just that prices start around $10k.)

Originally Posted by unipus

Just before my time, but I believe the AR-15 was actually not supremely common prior to the 21st century. Sure, there'd be more than a few around, but it wasn't until rails were added and marketing around the black rifle really took hold later on that they became as overwhelmingly popular as they are today. Anecdotally I recall a lot more scare stories of "AKs on the streets" back then than examples I can think of of privately owned Armalikes

Let's not forget that favorite of ex-US Special Forces tooling around in black vans, the Mini-14!

- C.

[mpipes]

The AR platform was common but not the #1 seller it is today. There were dozens available at every gunshow I have ever been too. Galils were getting pretty popular; bought mine in 1985. AKs started showing up in 1983 or so.

If you are really curious, ATF tracked that data fairly well. A FOIA request can get you a lot of data.

But note, ATF only tracked guns manufactured. There were a lot of kits being imported back then.

Anyway, you could find what you wanted from 1985 forward fairly easy till the Assault Weapon Bans in the mid-90s. However, a lot of sporters were then approved that had a few cosmetic changes, and I am not sure that any bans would have gone through.

BTW, I saw the vote on the 1986 Hughes Amendment live. It was just after the silencer ban. Both actually lost on the voice vote, but the Democrat running the votes - Rangel - pronounced the yays had it. Under the rules, the time for a recorded vote had passed. The NRA refused to push stripping it out in conference between the House and Senate, so here things are in the 2020s....still fighting over bans.

Owning full-autos is still legal - I own the AUG used in "Die Hard" - Congress only outlawed future manufacture for private sales. However, there is a loophole, so states could authorize sales to citizens should the choose. None have tried as yet.

[Tegyrius]

I have AUG envy. I've owned an FS2000 (tactical tuna) and tried other bullpups, but I keep coming back to the OG as the most streamlined of the breed.

- C.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I have AUG envy. I've owned an FS2000 (tactical tuna) and tried other bullpups, but I keep coming back to the OG as the most streamlined of the breed.

- C.

Check out the new Springfield Hellion bullpup. It is supposed to be the best of the breed.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Check out the new Springfield Hellion bullpup. It is supposed to be the best of the breed.

Is that the one based on Croatia's service rifle? I was browsing gun mags at the pharmacy yesterday and both Recoil and, I think, G&A had articles on it (if it's the same one I'm thinking of).

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[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Check out the new Springfield Hellion bullpup. It is supposed to be the best of the breed.

I learned my lesson about being a Springfield beta tester with the EMP.

Back on topic for this thread, do we know what the CMP inventory of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and M1903s was like in the mid-90s? I would expect those to have been shipped out to law enforcement and state guard units in conjunction with the M16EZ project, so they'd be fairly common for poorly-equipped militia units in 2000.

- C.

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I learned my lesson about being a Springfield beta tester with the EMP.

Back on topic for this thread, do we know what the CMP inventory of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and M1903s was like in the mid-90s? I would expect those to have been shipped out to law enforcement and state guard units in conjunction with the M16EZ project, so they'd be fairly common for poorly-equipped militia units in 2000.

- C.

There was still a ton of stuff in storage. The M-14s had never been scrapped. Then Clinton got in and went scrap happy. I laughed when the Pentagon decided to reissue M-14s after 9/11 only to find out that most had been scrapped and they had to buy new ones from Springfield. But up till Clinton, we had warehouses full of BARs, belt fed 1919, M2 carbines, and the like. There were/are still 1911A1s stored.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I have AUG envy. I've owned an FS2000 (tactical tuna) and tried other bullpups, but I keep coming back to the OG as the most streamlined of the breed.

- C.

My unit transitioned from SLRs to Austeyrs while I was a reservist infantryman. Pretty cool space-age looking things.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Is that the one based on Croatia's service rifle? I was browsing gun mags at the pharmacy yesterday and both Recoil and, I think, G&A had articles on it (if it's the same one I'm thinking of).

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Yes it is. Check it out on INRANGE TV, Ian and Carl put it through its paces.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I learned my lesson about being a Springfield beta tester with the EMP.

Back on topic for this thread, do we know what the CMP inventory of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and M1903s was like in the mid-90s? I would expect those to have been shipped out to law enforcement and state guard units in conjunction with the M16EZ project, so they'd be fairly common for poorly-equipped militia units in 2000.

- C.

LOL. How far both Springfield AND Remington have fallen...

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by mpipes

The AR platform was common but not the #1 seller it is today. There were dozens available at every gunshow I have ever been too. Galils were getting pretty popular; bought mine in 1985. AKs started showing up in 1983 or so.

One of the issues with ARs not being "prolific" like they are today was Colt's IRONCLAD SOLE OWNERSHIP of the AR rights. They were only producing a few thousand civilian rifles a year because of the military contract for the A2. Then the ban hit and that was that. When their exclusive rights ended around the turn of the Century, EVERYONE began bidding on government contracts for M16s. Then the Ban expired in 2004 and things really took off.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by unipus

Just before my time, but I believe the AR-15 was actually not supremely common prior to the 21st century. Sure, there'd be more than a few around, but it wasn't until rails were added and marketing around the black rifle really took hold later on that they became as overwhelmingly popular as they are today. Anecdotally I recall a lot more scare stories of "AKs on the streets" back then than examples I can think of of privately owned Armalikes

When officials were crying about AK's and MAC-10's, the most common rifle used in violent crime was the Winchester 1894. In the 90's the AR \was gaining popularity, but the originals and V2 timelines would have disrupted that.

[pmulcahy11b]

As a severely-mentally-ill person (it's called schizoaffective disorder -- sort of paranoid schizophrenia with some bipolar disorder thrown in for sh**s and giggles), I am not in the state of Texas allowed to own a firearm of any type. This includes air rifles and bows and crossbows and anything similar to that. Ironically, I'm allowed to own any type of knife I want, and I have several daggers, a large bowie-type knife, a folding work knife, and a swiss army knife.

In case of invasion or civil war (don't get me started on that one), I would have to hope for the best and sneak around with my bowie and daggers and kill some unfortunate enemy individual and steal his weapon. And go from there.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As a severely-mentally-ill person (it's called schizoaffective disorder -- sort of paranoid schizophrenia with some bipolar disorder thrown in for sh**s and giggles), I am not in the state of Texas allowed to own a firearm of any type. This includes air rifles and bows and crossbows and anything similar to that. Ironically, I'm allowed to own any type of knife I want, and I have several daggers, a large bowie-type knife, a folding work knife, and a swiss army knife.

In case of invasion or civil war (don't get me started on that one), I would have to hope for the best and sneak around with my bowie and daggers and kill some unfortunate enemy individual and steal his weapon. And go from there.

Or as a military experienced male, and no access to records, you may be issued one right before "The End".

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As a severely-mentally-ill person (it's called schizoaffective disorder -- sort of paranoid schizophrenia with some bipolar disorder thrown in for sh**s and giggles), I am not in the state of Texas allowed to own a firearm of any type. This includes air rifles and bows and crossbows and anything similar to that. Ironically, I'm allowed to own any type of knife I want, and I have several daggers, a large bowie-type knife, a folding work knife, and a swiss army knife.

In case of invasion or civil war (don't get me started on that one), I would have to hope for the best and sneak around with my bowie and daggers and kill some unfortunate enemy individual and steal his weapon. And go from there.

You need to start training with a sling. The Shepherd's sling is hard to learn but it's just a braided string. Most people won't even recognize it as a weapon. The staff sling is far more effective but would be hard to carry around with you.
Just YouTube the staff sling to see just how easy they are to use.